"History of Dragonkind" booklet

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"History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Zendrolion » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:59 am

Hi all!

At last I managed to correct, refine, polish, and make a pdf document of my History of Dragonkind, which I started writing two years ago.

You can download the booklet at this link.

As you can read in the foreword, this history was intended to be a parte of an ambitious PCE1 - Lore of the Ancient Wyrms (where PCE stands for "PC series Expansion"), but most of the remaining part is still to write. So, given the current debate around Dragons in BC 2300, I thought it'd have been a good idea to post the historical part of my work, at least.

My version of draconic history tries to merge together all known canon sources (mostly the Immortal Set, Wrath of the Immortals, Dragonlord Trilogy novels, and Ziets' and Heard's articles from Dragon Magazine); where possible, I've tried to find an explanation to justify inconsistencies in canon sources - where it was impossible (like Diamond's background), I've had to chose between sources.

The history is supported by a number of notes, which I hope will be useful to show you where I've found the relevant informations in canon and non-canon sources, and to explain what was my reasoning behind what I wrote. I apologize for the lack of page reference (and, in some cases, even novel reference) in the notes regarding the Dragonlord Trilogy novels; the lack is due to the fact that my source for the novels were citations posted by LoZompatore on the old Italian MMB, which was deleted alongside all valuable infos they hosted a couple of years ago. Fortunately I kept all citations, but not other infos about them, so in most cases I was unable to trace back the novel the single citation belonged to. :(

As an appendix, I included what I wrote as introduction to my PCE1 project; essentially it's a chapter who tries to make the point on the Dragons' role in the Multiverse, their cosmic cicle, and their various incarnations, both mortal and planar.
:!: I suggest you read this appendix first, in order to better understand how I interpreted draconic history. :!:

As always, I consider the present work far from finished, so I hope to see many comments and criticism to further perfect it. If you manage to read through it, I mean - both becouse my English skills are what they are, and becouse it's horrendously LONG. :ugeek:

Have a good read! ;)
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by hihama » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:08 am

I was just quickly glancing through this. Looks great.

And you can still find Glantrian Personnel Division material from this address:
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Gecko » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:49 pm

Dowloading this NOW... :cool:
hihama wrote:And you can still find Glantrian Personnel Division material from this address:
http://www.oocities.com/principalities_ ... n/main.htm
or here without the frames and annoying sticky at the top

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Gecko » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:54 am

Just finished reading it, once again very impressive Simone. A few thoughts/comment come to mind-

When this metempsychosis began, did all the true dragons get reincarnated? i.e. Was there a period where the Draconic Cluster was empty until the rise of the first dragon guardians? If not, then might some of the true dragons have never been reincarnated and thus are still around? OR might it rather have been a staggered occurence where the last of the un-reincarnated true dragons not have faded until after the appearence of the first numbers of dragon guardians?
Related to that, might some traveling dragons who were away from the draconic Cluster at the time have avoided the reincarnation?
The presence of intelligent – if unaware – draconic Essences in Prime Plane reptilian creatures slowly caused changes within those species, and in part directed a branch of the evolution of reptiles. This is the reason why specialized species substantially different from dinosaurs, like Wyverns, were born
ooh, Might Ka have been one of these enfused reptiles?

also, my carnifex lore's not too storng, but might they also be connected?

re- the great wyrms of the past (Yealaletherveri, etc.)

given the aprox. 10,000 years a dragon would spend in the Draconic cluster serving as a Soul and then a Spirit, these great's shouldn't be getting reincarnated until around the year AC4000, if I'm reading the timeline correctly. That seems like a bit of a story plot waste there, any reasoning for the 10,000 number? It could be interesting to have them re-ocurring in either the near past, present, or near future (of course in mortal form they wouldn't know directly about their pasts)
The leaders of Mystara’s Dragons, however, feared the day in which the Gemstones could unite again and pose a threat to the Dragons of Mystara, so they demanded that the Gemstones spread among the Outer and Hollow World lands,
never allowing too many of them to stay together.
Given Draconic lifespan's, this would be what? 0-2 generations ago? I can imagine some dragon's still distrusting any gathering of 3 or more gemstone dragons.

re- previous Sun Dragon

Might the Sun dragon have been destroyed by Bemarris in the 7th Century AC? Did Bemarris somehow get the Arms and Armor of the dragonlord, or just some "ordinary" powerful magic item's?

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Havard » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:10 pm

Zendrolion wrote:Hi all!

At last I managed to correct, refine, polish, and make a pdf document of my History of Dragonkind, which I started writing two years ago.

You can download the booklet at this link.
Holy...!

This is really impressive Zendrolion! I am even beginning to be convinced by your take on the Eldar. The idea of them being a sort of proto-Elven race, with some members who were able to become dragons (Dark Sun style?), rather than being ancestors of dragons appeals to me. Interestingly, this also fits well as an ElfQuest analogy to the High Ones, which feels appropriate given the amount of EQ references in Gaz5. I am also beginning to think that having a race like the Eldar around in Mystara's pre-history could be interesting in discussions of the Carnifex and other Pre-Blackmoor ancient civilizations.

I have only skimmed through the book yet, but I like what I am seeing. God job! :)

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by BlU_sKrEEm » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:53 am

This is an amazing piece of work! I love the citations and explanations through out. Grammar and spelling could use work, but other than that I can't find any flaws. I'd definitely consider it cannon in my games.

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Havard » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:17 am


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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Havard » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:15 pm


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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by metal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:13 pm

Very good read.

I am impressed with the great job of pulling together the wide selection of canon and fanon material into one book.
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by ripvanwormer » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:31 am

Yeah, I really liked this. The assumption that dragons existed in spiritual form on the Outer Planes before they incarnated on the mortal plane is a very good fix. The "new" conception of the Eldar as the ancestors of elves and of the gold dragons only was a great way to reconcile the disparate sources, too. It actually makes a lot of sense for gold dragons - the only lawful draconic race in classic D&D, not counting the gemstone dragons - to have a different ancestry from the other dragon breeds. It might also fit with the fact that they're the only wingless dragon breed in some versions of D&D, although gold dragons have wings in AC10 (and thus, presumably, in Mystara in general). Still, I'd be tempted to make gold dragons a wingless species (though still able to fly) in order to better differentiate them from those dragons descended from the Ancestral race. In the 1st edition Monster Manual, gold dragons were clearly based on traditional Chinese dragons: wingless, serpentine in shape, with carp-like whiskers, as opposed to the other draconic breeds, who are more Western in influence.

The idea that the Eldar are the direct ancestors of the elves of ancient Blackmoor/Thonia, not descended from Ordana's creations, is interesting. The Blackmoor elves could be descended from an earlier Evergrunian migration instead, but this method avoids having to reconcile that bit of timeline incoherency.

I notice Zendrolion's timeline matches Havard's idea that there was no Great One during the age of Blackmoor, and that the Opal, Pearl, and Diamond Dragons of that day all died around the time of the Great Rain of Fire (actually 200 years before in Zendrolion's history).

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Chimpman » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:41 am

BC 5,500: The Red Dragon Yealaletherveri dies in the final battle near the North Pole against Iscranin, the great anellid.

BC 3,500: Some Dragons try to use magic to reach a higher form, but they are unsuccessful; they become the Gemstone Dragons.

BC 3,200: War of the Dragonlord between Dragons and Blackmoor. Blackmoor wizards forge the Dragonlord Arms; Aryan Bejnok becomes the first Dragonlord. Dragons are decimated. The Ancestral Dragon Raakthyrl is sponsored by Terra to become the Great One; he defeats the Dragonlord and then allies with Blackmoor against the Gemstone Dragons. The Gemstones are banished to Veydra. Peace between Blackmoor and the Dragons: the Dragonlord Arms are returned to Dragonwatch Keep, and Blackmoor gifts the Dragons with the Collar of Dragons.

BC 3,000: The Great Rain of Fire; Blackmoor destroyed, the planet shifts its axis. Many Dragons die becouse of its consequences. Gold Dragons occupy Dragonwatch Keep to watch over the Dragonlord Arms.

After some time, by the will of the Great One and of the Gold Dragons, the Dragon Nation is born. Some Dragons prefer to stay out ot it, and become the Renegades. The Ancestral Dragon breed becomes almost extinct.

BC 2,800: The city of Windreach is built in the Wyrmsteeth Range.
I haven't read through the booklet just yet, but I did jump right to the timeline (so this might be something you cover already).

I've highlighted the interesting section above - I wonder if this could be the origins of the Ceremony of Sublimation?
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Hugin » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:51 pm

Chimpman wrote:I've highlighted the interesting section above - I wonder if this could be the origins of the Ceremony of Sublimation?
Hmm... Very interesting... very interesting indeed!

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Birchbeer » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:03 pm

Thanks for the book, it does a great job of explaining a lot of the intricacies of dragonkind on Mystara.

I have one question. Do the Wallara arise in history during the time of the souls beginning to inhabit better and better forms? Or did they arrive from a different evolutionary process?

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Zendrolion » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:50 pm

Thanks everyone for appreciations! :D
Now for some explanations and comments:
hihama wrote:And you can still find Glantrian Personnel Division material from this address:
http://www.oocities.com/principalities_ ... n/main.htm
Good to know, thanks. Fortunately, I had saved everything before Geocities deleted the website. :)
Gecko wrote:When this metempsychosis began, did all the true dragons get reincarnated? i.e. Was there a period where the Draconic Cluster was empty until the rise of the first dragon guardians? If not, then might some of the true dragons have never been reincarnated and thus are still around? OR might it rather have been a staggered occurence where the last of the un-reincarnated true dragons not have faded until after the appearence of the first numbers of dragon guardians?
Related to that, might some traveling dragons who were away from the draconic Cluster at the time have avoided the reincarnation?
I'd say there has never been a time when the Draconic Cluser was empty. My take on the issue is that the whole Dragonkind has reincarnated during history, so I think that no Dragon could have lived until present times without reincarnating at least once. Thus, the whole current Dragon Guardian ("true" Dragon) population is made up of Dragons who have reincarnated.
Regarding the side issue of traveling Dragons, I think that all Dragons of the Multiverse experienced an urge to come back to the Draconic Cluster in the span of a few centuries, and that all of them were thus subject to the beginning of the metempsychosis process soon or later.
Gecko wrote:ooh, Might Ka have been one of these enfused reptiles?

also, my carnifex lore's not too storng, but might they also be connected?
Ka might certainly be one of them. Perhaps his essence managed to make the dinosaur body he lived in immortal, and then - even without performing the Cerimony of Sublimation - he reached Immortality somehow.

I think the Carnifex belong to a different evolutionary branch, as the development of "humanoid" bodies doesn't seem the goal of the draconic essences, who instead tend to direct the evolution of the bodies they inhabit toward draconic form. Moreover, the Carnifex (as well as lizardmen) are not even labeled "dragon-kins", so I'd exclude any relationship between them and Dragons.
Gecko wrote:re- the great wyrms of the past (Yealaletherveri, etc.)

given the aprox. 10,000 years a dragon would spend in the Draconic cluster serving as a Soul and then a Spirit, these great's shouldn't be getting reincarnated until around the year AC4000, if I'm reading the timeline correctly. That seems like a bit of a story plot waste there, any reasoning for the 10,000 number? It could be interesting to have them re-ocurring in either the near past, present, or near future (of course in mortal form they wouldn't know directly about their pasts)
The 10,000 years span comes from Ziets' article, The Mightiest of Dragons, under the Dragon Spirit paragraph. I might even change it, but since it comes from canon, you know. ;) Anyway reincarnating Yealeletherveri before 10,000 years it's possible, as I wrote that the Dragon Rulers can decide to reward a Dragon Soul or Spirit who performed exceptional deeds before ten thousand years have passed.
Gecko wrote:Given Draconic lifespan's, this would be what? 0-2 generations ago? I can imagine some dragon's still distrusting any gathering of 3 or more gemstone dragons.
Exactly! :cool:
Gecko wrote:re- previous Sun Dragon

Might the Sun dragon have been destroyed by Bemarris in the 7th Century AC? Did Bemarris somehow get the Arms and Armor of the dragonlord, or just some "ordinary" powerful magic item's?
Of course it might be, very good idea! However, I'd discard the idea that Bemarris would have got the Dragonlord Arms - the Dragons would have waged a full-scale war against him! :shock:
Havard wrote:This is really impressive Zendrolion! I am even beginning to be convinced by your take on the Eldar. The idea of them being a sort of proto-Elven race, with some members who were able to become dragons (Dark Sun style?), rather than being ancestors of dragons appeals to me.
I'm glad you like it, Havard. :)
Even if the Dragonlord Trilogy is somewhat disappointing as a novel set in itself, in my opinion Gunnarsson insert some good background ideas in his story. I was worried about throwing away the Trilogy as a whole, so I tried to twist as little as possible both canon and the novels in order to make them fit together. ;)

P.S.: Thanks for posting the link to my booklet on your blog! :D
ripvanwormer wrote:It might also fit with the fact that they're the only wingless dragon breed in some versions of D&D, although gold dragons have wings in AC10 (and thus, presumably, in Mystara in general). Still, I'd be tempted to make gold dragons a wingless species (though still able to fly) in order to better differentiate them from those dragons descended from the Ancestral race.
My idea on the dragons' shape - which you may have read in the Appendix of the booklet - is that each Dragon's body is inconsciously shaped since before birth by the essence that inhabits it. According to each essence's preference, the dragon could turn out to be a wingless Serpent, a Long (wingless Chinese dragon), a Linnorm (wingless serpent-shaped, but with forelimbs), a Zmey (a wyvern-type dragon), and so on. This reflects some of Heard's descriptions of Dragon-NPCs in his article From Hatchling to Dragon Guardian, where at least a couple of Dragons have a non-classic appearance (IIRC, they're the one living in the Great Marsh in Soderfjord, and the one living in the Land of the Black Sand in Ethengar).
Chimpman wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:BC 3,500: Some Dragons try to use magic to reach a higher form, but they are unsuccessful; they become the Gemstone Dragons.
I've highlighted the interesting section above - I wonder if this could be the origins of the Ceremony of Sublimation?
Actually the Cerimony preceeds this event by a very, very long time. Its "discovery" by Dragons dates back to millions of years (at least, in my timeline) before the rise of Eldars, and to only "some" time later than the beginning of draconic metempsychosis (the reincarnation of Dragon souls into mortal reptiles).
Birchbeer wrote:I have one question. Do the Wallara arise in history during the time of the souls beginning to inhabit better and better forms? Or did they arrive from a different evolutionary process?
The Wallaras being Dragon-Kins, I suppose their evolutionary process is somewhat linked to the presence of Dragon essence in their bodies (at least for some ancient time - then the essences would have "abandoned" the Wallara shape for the better-fitting draconic shapes).
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Chimpman » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:28 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:BC 3,500: Some Dragons try to use magic to reach a higher form, but they are unsuccessful; they become the Gemstone Dragons.
I've highlighted the interesting section above - I wonder if this could be the origins of the Ceremony of Sublimation?
Actually the Cerimony preceeds this event by a very, very long time. Its "discovery" by Dragons dates back to millions of years (at least, in my timeline) before the rise of Eldars, and to only "some" time later than the beginning of draconic metempsychosis (the reincarnation of Dragon souls into mortal reptiles).
Hmmm... I'm confused on this point Zen (you'll have to forgive me since I've never read the Dragonlord series). I thought the Eldars predated the dragons and that at some point in time some of the Eldars actually became dragons. If that is the case, then how does the Ceremony of Sublimation predate the Eldars (who in turn predate the dragons)?
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Zendrolion » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:05 pm

Chimpman wrote:Hmmm... I'm confused on this point Zen (you'll have to forgive me since I've never read the Dragonlord series). I thought the Eldars predated the dragons and that at some point in time some of the Eldars actually became dragons. If that is the case, then how does the Ceremony of Sublimation predate the Eldars (who in turn predate the dragons)?
You're welcome, I'll try to explain this point as briefly as possible, having said that the setting of the Cerimony is canonically set "before mankind" and at least 10,000 years ago; these infos were extrapolated from some canon sources which I tried to put together in the best way I could. So, from the following sources we know:

Immortal Set and Ziets' The Mighties of Dragons:
* that Dragons, alongside Draedens, are among the oldest beings of the Multiverse, predating even Immortals;
* that Dragons stood neutral in the Draeden-Immortal war;
* that Dragon Souls'/Spirits' reincarnation cycle lasts 10,000 years.

Heard's From Hatchling to Dragon Guardian:
* that Dragons go through a series of cycles called the Cerimony of Sublimation, which allow an individual Dragon to regain its "true" self, that is the exalted-status Dragon Guardian form.
* that this "urge" of mortal Dragons to become Dragon Guardians dates from a distant age, long before the birth of mankind;

Hollow World and Wrath of the Immortals boxed sets:
* that elves were created by Ordana in an unknown past, before BC 6,000.

Dragonlord Trilogy novels:
* that in ages past Mystara was ruled by a powerful elflike, magical race called the Eldars;
* that some of the most powerful Eldars acquired the ability to polymorph into "grey" Dragons (that is Ancestral Dragons, the same stock of the Great One when he was a mortal);
* that at some point during their history they suffered a magical upheaval which mutated some of them into elves and some other into Dragons (that's why some modern Dragons - all Golds, but even some rare Red and Black in the novels - currently keep the ability to shapechange into humanoid/Eldar form).

Obviously the Dragonlord version conflicts with other cited sources - HW and WotI for the elves' origin, and the other sources for the Dragons' origin. However the whole tale about the Eldars' transformation into elves and Dragons is told in-character within the novels so, even if the story is said to be credited even by the Great One himself, it leaves room to other interpretations.
First and foremost, the novels never say that the whole draconic population has evolved from mutated Eldars; that's only the most logical explanation given the story about Eldars, but the novels only say that some Eldars mutated into Dragons, and that some Dragons keep the ability to shapechange into Eldar form becouse have Eldar blood in their ancestry.

So, this leaves room to combine the two versions. I could not leave back the Immortal Set's version, which really gives the right dignity to Dragonkind, so - in order to keep most of the Dragonlord Trilogy's story - I chose to have only a part of the draconic population descended from Eldars (that is Golds, and possibly other metallic Dragons), while other breeds would have evolved autonomously from the beginning of time, through a process of continuous reincarnations in the attempt to regain the Dragon Guardian ("true Dragon") form - something they did through the cycle known as the Cerimony of Sublimation.

Most versions are kept untouched in this way: Dragons are still one of the first races of the cosmos, the Cerimony dates back from an ancient age before mankind, Eldars still give a contribution to the Dragon race and on the other hand they are the ancestors of modern elves, etc.

I hope to have at least not confused further this issue. :ugeek:
Anyway I suppose your doubts might be better clarified by the Appendix and the first two chapters (Prehistory and Ancient History) of my booklet, where this issue is explained in a lenghty and much more understandable way. ;)
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Chimpman » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:12 am

Zendrolion wrote:First and foremost, the novels never say that the whole draconic population has evolved from mutated Eldars; that's only the most logical explanation given the story about Eldars, but the novels only say that some Eldars mutated into Dragons, and that some Dragons keep the ability to shapechange into Eldar form becouse have Eldar blood in their ancestry.

So, this leaves room to combine the two versions. I could not leave back the Immortal Set's version, which really gives the right dignity to Dragonkind, so - in order to keep most of the Dragonlord Trilogy's story - I chose to have only a part of the draconic population descended from Eldars (that is Golds, and possibly other metallic Dragons), while other breeds would have evolved autonomously from the beginning of time, through a process of continuous reincarnations in the attempt to regain the Dragon Guardian ("true Dragon") form - something they did through the cycle known as the Cerimony of Sublimation.
Thanks Zen! This clears up a lot for me actually.
Zendrolion wrote:I hope to have at least not confused further this issue. :ugeek:
Anyway I suppose your doubts might be better clarified by the Appendix and the first two chapters (Prehistory and Ancient History) of my booklet, where this issue is explained in a lenghty and much more understandable way. ;)
Sorry, that's my fault. I jumped around in you article, basically skipping those sections for other that I found more interesting right off the bat. :oops: I suspected that might be the case. I fully intend to read the full booklet... it's just making the time to do so that is the problem ;).
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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Gecko » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:41 am

Zendrolion wrote:
Gecko wrote:When this metempsychosis began, did all the true dragons get reincarnated? i.e. Was there a period where the Draconic Cluster was empty until the rise of the first dragon guardians?
I'd say there has never been a time when the Draconic Cluser was empty.
cool, thanks for the explanation
My take on the issue is that the whole Dragonkind has reincarnated during history, so I think that no Dragon could have lived until present times without reincarnating at least once.
at least once? Are the guardians subject to being unwillingly reincarnated again?
Gecko wrote:ooh, Might Ka have been one of these enfused reptiles?
Ka might certainly be one of them. Perhaps his essence managed to make the dinosaur body he lived in immortal, and then - even without performing the Cerimony of Sublimation - he reached Immortality somehow.
nice, some ideals to play with there... :twisted:
also, my carnifex lore's not too strong, but might they also be connected?
I think the Carnifex belong to a different evolutionary branch, as the development of "humanoid" bodies doesn't seem the goal of the draconic essences, who instead tend to direct the evolution of the bodies they inhabit toward draconic form.
Carnifex are humanoid :?: I guess my carni lore is even weaker than I thought :oops: , never mind then :x
Gecko wrote:re- the great wyrms of the past (Yealaletherveri, etc.)

That seems like a bit of a story plot waste there, any reasoning for the 10,000 number?
The 10,000 years span comes from Ziets' article, The Mightiest of Dragons, under the Dragon Spirit paragraph. I might even change it, but since it comes from canon, you know. ;)
oh... I had completely missed that that was from a canon source, ok then.
Gecko wrote:re- previous Sun Dragon

Might the Sun dragon have been destroyed by Bemarris in the 7th Century AC? Did Bemarris somehow get the Arms and Armor of the dragonlord, or just some "ordinary" powerful magic item's?
Of course it might be, very good idea! However, I'd discard the idea that Bemarris would have got the Dragonlord Arms - the Dragons would have waged a full-scale war against him! :shock:
good point. Even if it's not THE arms, it's still got to be some powerful items to take out the Sun Dragon. Something that came out of the dracology secret craft? Too bad Lokena wasn't a mortal that long ago otherwise she could explain how a bit of dracology wound up in Norwold. Who else might have made such weapons? It seems unlikely that there's yet some other blackmoor weapons lying around for him to have uncovered. Something made by the Modriswerg perhaps? I was thinking that Bemarris somehow had switched THE arms out of dragonwatch keep and used it (since you wrote that none seem to know what happend to the previous sun dragon it's possible he used them but didn't get caught), but that seems like a bit of a stretch for someone like Bemarris (could someone else have snuck the arms out of Dragonwatch keep for the soon to be immortal Bemarris to use on the last part of his quest?)
Havard wrote:This is really impressive Zendrolion!
Indeed, I'll second that! Bravo!

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Zendrolion » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:27 am

Gecko wrote:
Zendrolion wrote: My take on the issue is that the whole Dragonkind has reincarnated during history, so I think that no Dragon could have lived until present times without reincarnating at least once.
at least once? Are the guardians subject to being unwillingly reincarnated again?
We might interpret this issue as we please, since Dragon Guardians only remember their last life - that is, their life as mortals Dragon which eventually "evolved" into them. So, even Dragon Guardians wouldn't remember previous achievements of the "true" form if they were forced to reincarnate again. This is something I'd leave open.
Gecko wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:I think the Carnifex belong to a different evolutionary branch, as the development of "humanoid" bodies doesn't seem the goal of the draconic essences, who instead tend to direct the evolution of the bodies they inhabit toward draconic form.
Carnifex are humanoid :?: I guess my carni lore is even weaker than I thought :oops: , never mind then :x
I meant "they have a humanoid form", like lizardmen, troglodytes, and so on. Dragon Essences seem to prefer more reptilian forms, and eventually shape them into wyvern-, serpent-, dinosaur- or wyrm-like forms.
Gecko wrote:good point. Even if it's not THE arms, it's still got to be some powerful items to take out the Sun Dragon. Something that came out of the dracology secret craft? Too bad Lokena wasn't a mortal that long ago otherwise she could explain how a bit of dracology wound up in Norwold. Who else might have made such weapons? It seems unlikely that there's yet some other blackmoor weapons lying around for him to have uncovered. Something made by the Modriswerg perhaps? I was thinking that Bemarris somehow had switched THE arms out of dragonwatch keep and used it (since you wrote that none seem to know what happend to the previous sun dragon it's possible he used them but didn't get caught), but that seems like a bit of a stretch for someone like Bemarris (could someone else have snuck the arms out of Dragonwatch keep for the soon to be immortal Bemarris to use on the last part of his quest?)
So Bemarris would have snatched the Arms from Dragonwatch Keep without the Gold Dragon Keepers even realized it? Could be indeed, but I suppose that at least the Great One wouldn't be foiled, and he would have surely known that someone had stolen the dangerous artifacts (those he had already fought against thousands of years ago), and would have also surely warned the Keepers, the Dragon Nation, and so on. I suppose that Diamond (aka Thelvyn) also keeps a watchful eye on the Arms, so it'd be difficult to have two Immortals foiled at once by the deeds of a mortal - even one near the rise to Immortality.

What if instead Bemarris put his hands on the surviving, incomplete plans for the construction of the Dragonlord Arms, and fabricated a less-powerful version of the artifacts? Perhaps he got (stole?) the plans from the Modrigswergs, who would have kept them without knowing what those plans exactly were - how those plans came into the Modrigswergs caves after the Time of the First Dragonlord or after the Great Rain of Fire is something we could speculate widely about... :twisted:
Gecko wrote:Indeed, I'll second that! Bravo!
Many thanks again! :)
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Gecko » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:38 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Gecko wrote:at least once? Are the guardians subject to being unwillingly reincarnated again?
We might interpret this issue as we please, since Dragon Guardians only remember their last life
oh, I had misunderstood then. (I thought they regained memories of even their existence as true dragons before the reincarnation cycle). So then, none of dragonkind remembers their existence prior to the start of the metempsychosis reincarnation cycle?
Zendrolion wrote:So Bemarris would have snatched the Arms from Dragonwatch Keep without the Gold Dragon Keepers even realized it? .... so it'd be difficult to have two Immortals foiled at once by the deeds of a mortal - even one near the rise to Immortality.
yeah, I think that would be beyond Bemarris. Unless some other immortal made the switch and gave the arms to Bemarris, with bemarris perhaps not knowning what they were. But I can't think of which immortal would have the means and motive to have done so, so never mind.
What if instead Bemarris put his hands on the surviving, incomplete plans for the construction of the Dragonlord Arms, and fabricated a less-powerful version of the artifacts?
hmm... That could definately work.
Perhaps he got (stole?) the plans from the Modrigswergs, who would have kept them without knowing what those plans exactly were - how those plans came into the Modrigswergs caves after the Time of the First Dragonlord or after the Great Rain of Fire is something we could speculate widely about... :twisted:
I'll leave that to be answered by someone who knows more about the Modrigswergs and their history, though another related idea is that Bemarris brought the plans to the modrigswerg for their help in forging it. I don't know.

While I'm liking this Modrigswerg connection more and more, I can't help but wonder if there is some other possible connection or source for the weapons we are overlooking (meaning it might not be anything related to THE dragonlord arms). What else was going on in 7th century Norwold?

Could the weapons be Alphatian? But then I didn't think that the Alphatians seem to have much conflict/contact with the Dragons between the era of the novels and the gazeteer era.

There's nothing noteworthy going on with the Antalians of this area (other than the rise of Bemarris himself at this time, of course) nor with the Shiye elves at this time, right? Further south the Northern reaches are coalecing (sp?) but there doesn't seem to be much going on with the Antalians of Norwold proper.

The Littonians, Kaarjalans, Vaarana's, and etc. were busy fighting the Shonak horde at this time, so I doubt they had anything to do with it.

Some sort of plot by Idris using the/a Denagothians/Essurians? But what would she have to gain? - by not taking credit I don't think she would even get the immortal stroke, right?

Ghry and the western lands seem quiet at this time, could there have been a M-St. George dragonslayer type character? (might Bemarris even be a St. George like role to them?) But it seems odd to me to just jump over the [geographically] intervening Essuria/Denagoth/Wendar like that...

In the Landfall FGaz there is a seemingly throwaway line about increased dragon attacks in the late 5th century, but not the 7th Century. (Edit: on second thought, I realised that would be connected to the events of the novels, so never mind)

Thyatis was not very involved with Norwold in this era, being in a somewhat low period under the Monomachos and Tatzianes emperors.

Dwarves (non-Modrigswerg) were just begining to move into the area at the time.

Hin- what was Leeha up to at this time?

Lupin's, Rakasta's- anything going on with them in this era and area that might be connected?

any other groups that I'm forgetting?

Given all the above The Modrigswerg do seem like the best option to me, but a lot of the folks on here have a far better understanding of mystaran history than I do.

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Zendrolion » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:23 am

Gecko wrote:oh, I had misunderstood then. (I thought they regained memories of even their existence as true dragons before the reincarnation cycle). So then, none of dragonkind remembers their existence prior to the start of the metempsychosis reincarnation cycle?
Exactly, no Dragon Essence evolved into Dragon Guardian remembers anything of his past incarnations, other than the life which ultimately led to its "upgrade" into Dragon Guardian form. So, at best, a Dragon Guardian remembers his last mortal life and, of course, his current life as Dragon Guardian.
Given the fact that in the Dragonlord novels even the Great One speculates about the Eldars-Dragons connection, I suppose this could be true even for Dragon Ruler themselves. In other worlds, some mysteries about the Dragons are deeply hidden in the fog of time, and only the Old Ones (and perhaps the Draedens) could solve them. :cool:
Gecko wrote:yeah, I think that would be beyond Bemarris. Unless some other immortal made the switch and gave the arms to Bemarris, with bemarris perhaps not knowning what they were. But I can't think of which immortal would have the means and motive to have done so, so never mind.
An entropic Immortal (or a cadre of them) trying to stage another human-Dragon war, perhaps. But, as I said, I'd leave the Arms where they rest; the best I can imagine is that Bemarris tried to snatch the Arms out of Dragonwatch Keep, but ultimately failed. I'd rather have another origin for his dragonslaying weapons.
Gecko wrote:What else was going on in 7th century Norwold?

Could the weapons be Alphatian? But then I didn't think that the Alphatians seem to have much conflict/contact with the Dragons between the era of the novels and the gazeteer era.
Actually, the Alphatians fight in a great war against Dragons during the events of the second novel (Dragonking of Mystara, set in AC 510-511 according to LoZompatore); I have left out this conflict of my booklet becouse it didn't affect draconic history so much, but it could be of some interest.
Shortly, the Overlord-controlled Flaem who stole the Collar of Dragons stages a plan to persuade the Wyrmsteeth Dragons that the theft has been organized by the Alphatians, who wish to weaken them to strenghten their hold on Norwold. This is the beginning of a war between the Dragons and the Empire, which ultimately ends with the destruction both of imperial presence in Norwold and of a huge seafleet sent by the motherland to reclaim the colonies. In my timeline of Norwold I also linked this events with the tale of the Sabre River's curse.

Back on topic, for what concerns our ideas about Bemarris, I think that Alphatians - in particular the imperial family of Volospin III and his allies - would have matured quite a grudge against the Dragons, so a descendant of them could have been the creator of Bemarris' dragonslaying weapons in order to complete his revenge against the hated reptiles. So, Alphatians are not out of this scenario at all, in my opinion, and we're allowed to use them.
Gecko wrote:Some sort of plot by Idris using the/a Denagothians/Essurians? But what would she have to gain? - by not taking credit I don't think she would even get the immortal stroke, right?

Ghry and the western lands seem quiet at this time, could there have been a M-St. George dragonslayer type character? (might Bemarris even be a St. George like role to them?) But it seems odd to me to just jump over the [geographically] intervening Essuria/Denagoth/Wendar like that...
Idris seems to have quite a liking of Dragons (at least of those who serve her), so, unless we make up some very persuading aim of her, I don't think she could be the patron behind a dragonslayer.
About Ghyr, I set the kingdom's birth at the end of the 9th century AC, so it seems we're a little out of the time we're interested in.
Gecko wrote:In the Landfall FGaz there is a seemingly throwaway line about increased dragon attacks in the late 5th century, but not the 7th Century. (Edit: on second thought, I realised that would be connected to the events of the novels, so never mind)
Yes, I think this event is connected with the tale of the first novel, which comes at the end of the period marking the Great One's disappearance, when the Dragons are left without a true guide and begin again to raid human settlements.
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Havard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:05 pm

In my latest exploration of Blackmoor's prehistory, I ended up using Iscranin and Yealaletherveri mentioned in the History of Dragonkind (originally from Son of Dawn). Has anything more been done with these creatures?


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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by LoZompatore » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:28 pm

Oooohhh, it's finished!!! Great work, Zendrolion! :D :D :D

About relationships between dragons and Alphatians there are some interesting elements introduced by Bruce Heard in his new descriptions about the kingdoms of Randel (here about dragon crags and draconic orders) and Bettellyn (here about the Burial Hallows).
More specifically, the Burial Hallows were created after a mighty battle between dragons and archons. The Hallows were created after the Alphatian Landfall (see the reply to my comment to the Burial Hallows article). I was wondering if such a battle could actually have been between the archons and gemstone dragons, in an early (failed) attempt to enslave also the Followers of the Air branch of refugees from Old Alphatia. The attacks on the Alphatians of the Dragonlord era, while basically aimed to start a war between the Alphatians and the chromatic dragons, could also incorporate some elements of revenge from the gemstone dragons' side.

We could ask Bruce if he likes the idea.

I still did not read the booklet in detail, but I was wondering if you also provided a clue about when the meeting points of the chromatic dragons from AC10 (the biggest desert, the oldest swamp, etc..) were first established.
Aryan Bejnok
Really? LOL! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Impressive work, really.

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Re: "History of Dragonkind" booklet

Post by Zendrolion » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:16 am

Havard wrote:In my latest exploration of Blackmoor's prehistory, I ended up using Iscranin and Yealaletherveri mentioned in the History of Dragonkind (originally from Son of Dawn). Has anything more been done with these creatures?
I had previously used them in my Central Altan Tepes Mini Gazetteer, in the Karameikos section. In fact, according to Son of Dawn novel, the great tunnels burrowed by Iscranin can still be found in that region in the modern age.
LoZompatore wrote:Oooohhh, it's finished!!! Great work, Zendrolion! :D :D :D
Thank you! :D
Well, actually, it was finished on November 12th, 2010, but glad to receive your compliments anyway! ;)
LoZompatore wrote:About relationships between dragons and Alphatians there are some interesting elements introduced by Bruce Heard in his new descriptions about the kingdoms of Randel (here about dragon crags and draconic orders) and Bettellyn (here about the Burial Hallows).
More specifically, the Burial Hallows were created after a mighty battle between dragons and archons. The Hallows were created after the Alphatian Landfall (see the reply to my comment to the Burial Hallows article). I was wondering if such a battle could actually have been between the archons and gemstone dragons, in an early (failed) attempt to enslave also the Followers of the Air branch of refugees from Old Alphatia. The attacks on the Alphatians of the Dragonlord era, while basically aimed to start a war between the Alphatians and the chromatic dragons, could also incorporate some elements of revenge from the gemstone dragons' side.
Interesting approach; obviously the booklet could not take that into account, having preceeded Bruce's article by two years. But there's clearly room to implement Randel's Burial Hallows background into the manual. That's not something I plan to do in the very near future, however - as you see all that I manage to do regarding Mystara is appearing from time to time here to write some answer or point of view... ;(
LoZompatore wrote:I still did not read the booklet in detail, but I was wondering if you also provided a clue about when the meeting points of the chromatic dragons from AC10 (the biggest desert, the oldest swamp, etc..) were first established.
No, that point has not been addressed. Actually, it would have been part of the other [planned] part of the booklet, where dragons would have been described in detail, alongside their political organizations, and their behaviors (meeting points included).
I remember years ago Marco sent me by mail some comments that still await to be implemented into the booklet... If only I had enough time to do everything... :facepalm:
LoZompatore wrote:
Aryan Bejnok
Really? LOL! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
:mrgreen: ... fighting against draconic meganoids... :lol:
LoZompatore wrote:Impressive work, really.
Thank you again! But remember that the booklet came out mostly thanks to your findings while reading the Dragonlord Trilogy, Son of Dawn, and other novels. So, many thanks to you also! ;)
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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