North of the Black Mountains

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North of the Black Mountains

Postby Birchbeer » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:16 pm

In compiling the Eastern Brun map I noticed in the valleys north of The Black Mountains, there are a series of valleys and what looks like small kingdoms/city states. (Both in OldDawg's and Chris Constantin's maps) North of that there is some wilderness and then the Borean valley. What has been documented in fannon about this area?

I was able to find one brief part of a thread: http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=768&p=14218&hilit=+black+mountains+Davania#p14218
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Gecko » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:30 am

Fannon? I know that there's Havards Kantari, a M-Bulgar Centaur group he mentioned in the Sylvan (non-Fey) Races getting enough love? thread & that I asked about in the Upper Sind discussion
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby agathokles » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:38 am

Christian Constantin wrote some notes on those countries, mostly within his work on Hule.
The most relevant document is the Hulean timeline.
The valleys are called "Kavkaz", while the northern region is part of the Midlands (there are more writeups on that part).

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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:15 pm

Hello Birchbeer,

I am also interested in that area, but my searches have come up with nothing.

I personally would base those city states on the Byzantine Empire, which was comprised of a number of city states allied together. In my mind, all of the city states shown in "Kavkaz" would clearly have to work together to stop the advances of Hule.

So I imagine large temples, dedicated to whatever deity or deities one would want to use, which beautiful domed roofs, paintings, statues and frescos. Great artists, actors and playrights as well. The Byzantines were Greek Orthodox Christians, so anything based on that would be good in my book. In fact it was mainly their architecture that muslims later based their mosques on - mosques never had domes before they encountered the Byzantines.

To me, Hule is more like the Ottoman Empire which came after the Byzantines (Constantinople fell to the Ottoman's in 1453 AD). The fact that both were in conflict in the real world might add to the authenticity of setting up both Hule and the city states of "Kavkaz" in this fashion as well.

At the end of the day, if there is no fannon on this area, then one plus point is that you don't have to worry about contradicting anyone else!
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:52 pm

If anyone was going to do maps of this area, one problem is that the original map in X4 (Master of the Desert Nomads) is contradicted by later maps, especially with regards to the rivers that flow through and around the black mountains.

Which map should take precedent?
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Chimpman » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:15 pm

Carillion wrote:If anyone was going to do maps of this area, one problem is that the original map in X4 (Master of the Desert Nomads) is contradicted by later maps, especially with regards to the rivers that flow through and around the black mountains.

Which map should take precedent?

How many maps of the area exist and what are their sources?

A lot of times I'd say that more recent maps take precedence, but that need not always be the case. If there are multiple more recent sources, do they contradict with one another or do they agree? If they agree than I'd say go with them. If they also contradict one another, then I'd say a bit more research is called for. Sometimes we can pull more accurate information out of geographical descriptions and apply those to any contradictory map depictions.
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:03 pm

Hello Chimpman,

The map of the Sind Desert that came out with the "Champions of Mystara" boxed set was the one that caused the inconsistencies. It was a lot different than the previous map from X4 with regards to the Black mountains and surrounding areas, and it appears that most fan made maps are based on this later map and not the former. I have also read somewhere that the Sind Desert actually shrank with the second map!

Christian Constantin's map of the area is one exception, which is based more on the X4 map (though there are some minor differences). There may also be other maps out there that I don't know about.
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Chimpman » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:21 pm

Are these the maps in question?

Also I may have found another reference in the Dragon Mag VotPA maps here.

It's not something that I can really do at the moment (I'm at work and home life is pretty busy too), but it might be a good idea just to do an overlay of these different maps in order to get a better idea of exactly what is different between them.
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Havard » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 pm

I have always been a fan of Mystaros' Midlands material for this region:

Midlands
Midlands Pantheon
The Five Tribes


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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Gecko » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:07 am

agathokles wrote:Christian Constantin wrote some notes on those countries, mostly within his work on Hule.
The most relevant document is the Hulean timeline.
The valleys are called "Kavkaz", while the northern region is part of the Midlands (there are more writeups on that part).


Found my notes from C. Constantin's original posts for if anyone wanted to expand it further using his ideals:
Kavkaz is 5 lands: names of the 5 lands and what he based them on (please forgive the spelling, I'm in a hurry):

Dvinzina (M-Albania)
Grouzhnia (M-Georgia - the former Soviet republic in the Caucus's, not the American state in the South)
Azardjian (M-Azerbaijan)
Chengouch (M-Northern Caucus's - Chechnya, Ossetia, Dagestan, etc.)
Kyurdukstan (M-Kurdistan/Kurds)

Carillion wrote:I personally would base those city states on the Byzantine Empire, which was comprised of a number of city states allied together.


I've never heard the Byzantine Empire described as a collection of city states. Are you refering to the Byz.E.'s very later days when it was fragmented into various scattered fortified hold-outs? (ie Trebizond and Morea and such) Or is there some new period of Byzantine history I now need-to/get-to (eagerly) learn more about :ugeek: ?

In my mind, all of the city states shown in "Kavkaz" would clearly have to work together to stop the advances of Hule.


That could make sense, and could be one potential explanation. Alternatively perhaps the various hill tribes with their clannish structure and suspicion of outsiders and fierce guerilla (I always seem to have trouble spelling that word anymore) tactics have taught Hule that it's not worth it to tangle with them - like many of the Caucus's groups in the early Soviet years, or like the Pakistani and Afghan groups through most of history.

Havard wrote:I have always been a fan of Mystaros' Midlands material for this region:

I know I've seen a map placing much of that, but I always have trouble re-finding it again. Wasn't it further to the west, though, or am I misremembering?
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:08 am

At last, I have finally managed to complete the map of this region. It can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1WEBq0 ... edit?pli=1

Hover the mouse over the top of the map until a menu appears. Select either "Download" or “zoom in”, and you should then be able to view it in a decent size format.

A few notes:

1. The map from the module X4 (Master of the Desert Nomads) and the one from the Champions of Mystara boxed set do not tie up with regards to the size of the Sind desert. I have gone with the map from X4, as it was the first map to detail this region, and is also the map that most people will be using when adventuring in this location (ie,when playing through the module X4).

2. I have gone with the river tributaries from the map in X4, unless contradicted by more than one map of Canon status (for example, if contradicted by both the Champions of Mystara map and that of X5).

3. According to X4 and X5, the great pass is a dangerous route, which is rarely travelled. I have therefore not drawn a trade route going through the Great Pass, which is shown in the Champions of Mystara map of the region. At the time of my map (AC1000), no regular trade route goes this way.

4. Fanon maps do not agree with each other with regards to the the area in the North of my map. Some show the Borean Valley to be in this region, while others show the Ozungan Plateau to be in this area. I have gone with Christian Constantin’s (CC) map, as he wrote some extensive notes on this area which can be found on Pandius. I would have the bottom of the Borean Valley finish just North of the Ozungan Plateau, and then have it run all the way up to the West of Frosthaven.

5. Some towns were not given names in CC’s map. I have given names to these towns, based on the Cultures that were used as resource for this region. These are as follows:

Dvinzina: (Albania)
Grouzhnia: (Georgia - the former Soviet republic in the Caucus),
Azardjian: (Azerbaijan)
Chengouch: (Northern Caucus's - Chechnya, Ossetia, Dagestan, etc.)
Kyurdukstan: (Kurdistan)
Sardjikjian: (Tajikistan)
Last edited by Carillion on Tue May 14, 2013 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Havard » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:44 pm

Carillion wrote:At last, I have finally managed to complete the map of this region. It can be found here:

http://s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n56 ... ntains.jpg

Hover the mouse over the top of the map until a menu appears. Select either "Download" or “zoom in”, and you should then be able to view it in a decent size format.


Wow! That is one beautiful map! :)

I like seeing both the works of Christian Constantin and the Kingdom of Galannor from James Mishler in the same map. Any chance of seeing an extended version of this map to include the entire Kingdom of Galannor with details?
I also appreciate that this map appears to take into account the updated version of the Adri Varma Plateau using Zompatore's adaptation of the Orange Cover B3. :)



For my Centaur Kingdom of Kantari, I could easily see these Centaurs living on the Plains along the Borean River, between Galannor and Grouzina. :)


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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:11 am

Hello Havard,

I was thinking of mapping the area to the north, which would include the southern part of the Borean Valley, but there appears to be a disagreement on where the Yalu Bay should be in the fanon material I have seen, and I don't want to step on anyones toes! Also Galannor isn't that large, and would probably be better served with an 8 mile hex map.

It's funny you mention Centaurs, as when I was drawing the map, it ocurred to me how the Ozungan Plateau that Christian Constantin created would be a good place to put a Fey kingdom (with all that unexplored forest). Maybe the Centaurs of Kantari to the East of the Fey kingdom serve as protectors to stop the Humanoids living near the Adri Varma plateau from entering?

Did you sketch any maps of Kantari? If you did, I could include it in my map. Alternatively, I could put a label of "Kantari Plains" on the grassland directly to the East of the Ozungan plateau, as it would be a good place in my view to put a Centaur sanctuary (especially as Centaurs do seem to get ignored a bit in Mystarian canon).
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Morfie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:00 am

I was thinking of mapping the area to the north, which would include the southern part of the Borean Valley, but there appears to be a disagreement on where the Yalu Bay should be in the fanon material I have seen, and I don't want to step on anyones toes!


Do you mean The Cradle? The big lake in the middle of most Brun maps. Health's Spring is the smaller lake to the right of that one.
Yalu Bay is between the Savage Coast and the Arm of the Immortals.

If it does mean what I think it means, the fanon material clash disagreement depends on what base map was used..

Masters/Companion map - In this flat unprojected map, the right of the large lake and the smaller lake should end in a vertical line down to Slagovich. This would be my preference to use for mapping.

Rules Cyclopedia/Hollow World Map - This map is projected with curvature, so isn't very suitable for hex maps of a fixed distance. It was originally in the Hollow World box set, and copied to the Rules Cyclopedia. In this map the left of the large lake and the smaller lake is in a vertical line down to Slagovich.

If the fanon maps had followed the curvature (difficult to do when drawing a flat hex map) the positions would've matched the Masters/Companion maps. I think this is where the clash is.
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Sturm » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:42 pm

I was trying to map Brun with political borders here:
http://digidownload.libero.it/Halag/images/brun.png

I added all the canon and fan sources I was aware of, but there are conflicting maps of the Yalu sea and the Borean river and I just tried a sort of compromise...

If, when I'll be able to resume working on the map I'll gladly add the Kantari!
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Seer of Yhog » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:45 pm

Very cool, Sturm!

Who invented Nainartas (in the north) and Noxor (south of Suma'a)?
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Sturm » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:14 pm

Nainartas are here:
http://www.pandius.com/nainarta.html

I can't find nor recall anymore.. :? where the Noxor name came from... Maybe I invented it?
It could be a Tanagogre nation, a Zyxl colony, a hivebrood colony, some colonists from Davania?
Anything is possible :)
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Havard » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:38 pm

Carillion wrote:Hello Havard,

I was thinking of mapping the area to the north, which would include the southern part of the Borean Valley, but there appears to be a disagreement on where the Yalu Bay should be in the fanon material I have seen, and I don't want to step on anyones toes! Also Galannor isn't that large, and would probably be better served with an 8 mile hex map.


That would be neat :)

It's funny you mention Centaurs, as when I was drawing the map, it ocurred to me how the Ozungan Plateau that Christian Constantin created would be a good place to put a Fey kingdom (with all that unexplored forest). Maybe the Centaurs of Kantari to the East of the Fey kingdom serve as protectors to stop the Humanoids living near the Adri Varma plateau from entering?


Cool ideas all around here. I do envision toe Kantari as having a less western culture, but perhaps this could also apply to the Fey in this region?

Did you sketch any maps of Kantari? If you did, I could include it in my map. Alternatively, I could put a label of "Kantari Plains" on the grassland directly to the East of the Ozungan plateau, as it would be a good place in my view to put a Centaur sanctuary (especially as Centaurs do seem to get ignored a bit in Mystarian canon).


I never did much work on the Kantari. I have some material on Centaurs from my own campaign, though most of it is linked to the Centaurs of Karameikos. I toyed with explanding on that with the Kantari-region, but never got around to it. If you want to include the label on your map that would be very cool :)

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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Havard » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:40 pm

Sturm wrote:I was trying to map Brun with political borders here:
http://digidownload.libero.it/Halag/images/brun.png

I added all the canon and fan sources I was aware of, but there are conflicting maps of the Yalu sea and the Borean river and I just tried a sort of compromise...

If, when I'll be able to resume working on the map I'll gladly add the Kantari!


Nice map Sturm! I would love to see future versions of this if you are to revise it :)

I am no expert on the details of the geography of the Yalu Sea etc, but your map feels "Mystaran" to me.

What would be useful now would also be a smaller map showing the borders of the kingdoms only and not necessarily with all the other details. It is sometimes difficult to figure out where everything is in connection to the rest.

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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Sturm » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:54 am

Havard wrote:Nice map Sturm! I would love to see future versions of this if you are to revise it :)
I am no expert on the details of the geography of the Yalu Sea etc, but your map feels "Mystaran" to me.
What would be useful now would also be a smaller map showing the borders of the kingdoms only and not necessarily with all the other details. It is sometimes difficult to figure out where everything is in connection to the rest.
-Havard


I hope to find the time to revise it, eventually :)
I'd like too to have a smaller map of the world in 72 or even better 216 mph showing a bird view of the bigger empires and the regions, but unfortunately AFAIK no such map exist and to modify the scale of Kal's map is no small work...
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:19 pm

Do you mean The Cradle? The big lake in the middle of most Brun maps. Health's Spring is the smaller lake to the right of that one.
Yalu Bay is between the Savage Coast and the Arm of the Immortals.

If it does mean what I think it means, the fanon material clash disagreement depends on what base map was used..

Masters/Companion map - In this flat unprojected map, the right of the large lake and the smaller lake should end in a vertical line down to Slagovich. This would be my preference to use for mapping.

Rules Cyclopedia/Hollow World Map - This map is projected with curvature, so isn't very suitable for hex maps of a fixed distance. It was originally in the Hollow World box set, and copied to the Rules Cyclopedia. In this map the left of the large lake and the smaller lake is in a vertical line down to Slagovich.

If the fanon maps had followed the curvature (difficult to do when drawing a flat hex map) the positions would've matched the Masters/Companion maps. I think this is where the clash is.
I was thinking of mapping the area to the north, which would include the southern part of the Borean Valley, but there appears to be a disagreement on where the Yalu Bay should be in the fanon material I have seen, and I don't want to step on anyones toes!


Do you mean The Cradle? The big lake in the middle of most Brun maps. Health's Spring is the smaller lake to the right of that one.
Yalu Bay is between the Savage Coast and the Arm of the Immortals.

If it does mean what I think it means, the fanon material clash disagreement depends on what base map was used..

Masters/Companion map - In this flat unprojected map, the right of the large lake and the smaller lake should end in a vertical line down to Slagovich. This would be my preference to use for mapping.

Rules Cyclopedia/Hollow World Map - This map is projected with curvature, so isn't very suitable for hex maps of a fixed distance. It was originally in the Hollow World box set, and copied to the Rules Cyclopedia. In this map the left of the large lake and the smaller lake is in a vertical line down to Slagovich.

If the fanon maps had followed the curvature (difficult to do when drawing a flat hex map) the positions would've matched the Masters/Companion maps. I think this is where the clash is.


I think you are right! I've had another look at the maps and the location of the Yalu Sea ties up with what you said for both locations. I also meant to say the "Yalu Sea" and not the "Yalu Bay" in my previous post. You are correct that the "Yalu Bay" is to the West of the Orcs Head Peninsula, far to the South West of the area I have just mapped. Also, where did you get the terms "The Cradle" and "Health's Spring" from? I've never seen those before.

So are we all agreed that the "Yalu Sea", as shown in Christian Constantin's map should be moved about 500 miles to the West, and we should have part of the southern end of the Borean Vallley there instead?

I am also prepared to have a go at mapping this area, but it may be a while before I get around to it, due to other commitments. In the meantime, is everybody happy with the map I've just drawn, so I can move it to to the Thorf's mapping project section here on the Piazza? Priase or constructive criticism are both welcome! I have nobody to check my maps when I post them on here so I am always conscious I could have missed something.

Havard - thank you for your feedback so far!
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:28 pm

Hello Havard

I've now added the "Kantari Plains" label, as promised. The updated map is here:

http://s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n56 ... 4Final.jpg

Please click on "Download original size" after hovering the mouse over the top part of the map for the best view.
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Gecko » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:45 pm

Appears to be a bad link (I don't see any map when I click on it)
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Carillion » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:14 pm

Hello Gecko,

That's odd, I managed to get the map when I tried just now. How about trying the link I posted on 12 Nov? It's almost the same map (the later one has one extra label).
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Re: North of the Black Mountains

Postby Culture20 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:20 pm

Gecko wrote:Appears to be a bad link (I don't see any map when I click on it)

It works for me. (I had to enable javascript for the site and a pbsrc domain first)
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