mapping around threshold

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mapping around threshold

Post by happylarry » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:44 pm

I know some work has been done on mapping the threshold area elsehwere - but I wanted to share what I've done for others to comment.

Basically, I've tried to convert up the 500' hex map from the expert set (1983) of Threshold to 2/3 mile and 2 mile hex

let's see if this works first of all:

Image

basically, the red hexes are 2 mile, and the grey ones 2/3 mile (=7 500' hexes from the original map)

the big black blob is threshold

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Thorf » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:16 pm

It looks about right. I did a very rough map myself, mainly to get the precise outline of the lake for incorporating into other maps. But it seems that the details are just too small to fit onto the 8 miles per hex Karameikos maps.

Work in progress replica of the Expert Set (1983) Threshold map
and Variant with 1 mile per hex grid overlay
Image Image Image Image Image Image

My grid overlay is 1 mile per hex (a 500 ft hex blown up to 1056% size). I see why you used the numbers you did, though - very nice. :)

Obviously the overlay grid can be moved around freely. It would probably be best to work out the position of Threshold from other maps and decide that way where to place the grid.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Andaire » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:47 pm

I notice that on Thorf's maps the map title is The Threshold. Is that official? What would be the significance, that it was not originally the town's name (obviously, it had a Traladaran name before that; anyone know what it is?) but a nickname, due I imagine to its placement?
Last edited by Andaire on Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Thorf » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:52 pm

Yep, it's the official title for that map. It actually appears above the map on the top left, but I placed it inside the border to save file space.

I think they were already thinking of Threshold as the name, but I guess it was one step closer to its origin (i.e. the meaning of the word "threshold"). It's interesting, indeed. :)

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Havard » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:32 pm

I think it may be based on the fact that Prague (or Praha anyway) means threshold.

Those maps are very interesting by the way!

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Thorf » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:39 pm

Havard wrote:I think it may be based on the fact that Prague (or Praha anyway) means threshold.
I've always thought it just comes from the meaning of threshold as an entrance point - in this case it's the entrance to adventure. Anyway, the presence of "The" in the title would seem to back up this idea.

Havard, you're just too clever for this sort of thing. Sometimes the simplest answer is correct! :D Then again, the original designers were also really clever guys, so your idea may be right too.

Come to think of it, who was it that came up with Threshold and the other original names? Perhaps Moldvay in the 1981 Expert Set? I still don't have a copy of that to check...

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Havard » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:46 pm

Thorf wrote:I've always thought it just comes from the meaning of threshold as an entrance point - in this case it's the entrance to adventure. Anyway, the presence of "The" in the title would seem to back up this idea.
Yep. There's definately that too. :)
Havard, you're just too clever for this sort of thing. Sometimes the simplest answer is correct! :D Then again, the original designers were also really clever guys, so your idea may be right too.
If it was, it would seem the slavic connection to Karameikos was there right from the start. "Karameikos" itself is a name of a form of Greek ceramics IIRC.
Come to think of it, who was it that came up with Threshold and the other original names? Perhaps Moldvay in the 1981 Expert Set? I still don't have a copy of that to check...
I'm guessing X1, also by Tom Moldvay and David 'Zeb' Cook. Moldvay passed away recently, but Zeb sometimes posts on Dragonsfoot, so it might be worth popping by and asking him in his Q&A thread there.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by RobJN » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:23 pm

Wasn't Threshold at one point "Zadreth" (or Lugsid, if you want to make your PCs hike a bit...)? Been a while since I cracked open "Hail the Heroes."
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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by happylarry » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:53 pm

Glad you liked my 'map' Thorf - yours is much better looking, and I suspect much more accurate

on Threshold - it doesn't feature in the expert rules of moldvay (not on the map) - and aparently isn't on the X1 map from '81 - comes on stream in '83, which makes it a Mentzerism - we can ask him - but I suspect he wrote it as it says in the 83 expert rules as 'The Threshold' - the first wilderness/ town site and therefore the beginnings of outdoor adventures.

Odd to think that such an iconic place isn't 'original'

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Plaag » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:08 am

Nice maps :)
Made me look at the old Expert map and find things I'd forgotten.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Zendrolion » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:01 am

RobJN wrote:Wasn't Threshold at one point "Zadreth" (or Lugsid, if you want to make your PCs hike a bit...)? Been a while since I cracked open "Hail the Heroes."
I think "old" Threshold was intended to be Lugsid in Hail the Heroes. Zadreth should have been a village east of old Threshold, also on Lake Windrush's shores; now (AC 1000) it lays in ruins.

The real problem about Threshold are the sizes of Lake Windrush itself. The detail map of the area surrounding Threshold given in KKoA shows a very large lake (nearly as large as three 8-m hexes in N-S lenght!), which is not consistent with old Expert Set/B10's map, nor with its update in later manuals (GAZ1).

I decided to shrink the Lake's size to fit within one 8-m hex (thus explaining why the Lake wasn't featured on GAZ1's map - it was overlaid with the town symbol for Threshold), as you can see in my map of the larger area.
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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by metal » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:37 am

Zendrolin, very nice maps!
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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Zendrolion » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:05 am

metal wrote:Zendrolin, very nice maps!
Thank you, again! :)

As you see, I tried to put in all the locations found in old adventure modules, as well as all I could find from more recent ones. ;)
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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by dudemonkey » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:14 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
metal wrote:Zendrolin, very nice maps!
Thank you, again! :)

As you see, I tried to put in all the locations found in old adventure modules, as well as all I could find from more recent ones. ;)
Here's a suggestion since you apparently did a LOT of research to put together this map. I see a lot of locations on there that I recognize and a few that I don't. Maybe you could put together a rough list of where you found some of these places.

I love this map and it's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to put together for my campaign and I think it would be great if I could reference the same works you were.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Plaag » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:09 pm

dudemonkey wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:
metal wrote:Zendrolin, very nice maps!
Thank you, again! :)

As you see, I tried to put in all the locations found in old adventure modules, as well as all I could find from more recent ones. ;)
Here's a suggestion since you apparently did a LOT of research to put together this map. I see a lot of locations on there that I recognize and a few that I don't. Maybe you could put together a rough list of where you found some of these places.

I love this map and it's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to put together for my campaign and I think it would be great if I could reference the same works you were.
There is a list below the first map that states the sources each are found, or rather amidst the descriptions of each place.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by dudemonkey » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:16 am

Plaag wrote: There is a list below the first map that states the sources each are found, or rather amidst the descriptions of each place.

ShaneG.
How'd I miss that?!

This is good stuff. It's like a complete index of published material about Threshold.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Havard » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:25 am

I asked Frank Mentzer about the origins if Theshold over at Dragonsfoot:
Frank Mentzer wrote:
havard wrote:Did you create he town of Threshold? Where does the name Threshold come from? Is there any connection between it and Prague? Also, should it be "Threshold" or "The Threshold"?
Yah, it's mine, created for the '83 D&D Basic set.

Threshold: (3) any place or point of entering or beginning.

Simple as that. No connection to Prague (a most excellent city imho). No 'the', just Threshold.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Thorf » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:42 am

Nice! Straight from the baker's mouth! ;)

Good job, Havard.

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Chimpman » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:01 pm

Love these maps guys. In fact they were just what I was looking for. I took Simone's Map of the Threshold area and modified it so that the Lost Valley and the Temple of the shield were hidden (since I plan on letting my player look at it). It can be found here if anyone else is interested:

http://chimpman.geo.googlepages.com/Kar ... _2.7PC.png

Also the map of Threshold itself is very useful, and I just wonder if anyone has done anything more detailed (with city blocks and such)?
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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Plaag » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:07 pm

Chimpman wrote:Love these maps guys. In fact they were just what I was looking for. I took Simone's Map of the Threshold area and modified it so that the Lost Valley and the Temple of the shield were hidden (since I plan on letting my player look at it). It can be found here if anyone else is interested:

http://chimpman.geo.googlepages.com/Kar ... _2.7PC.png

Also the map of Threshold itself is very useful, and I just wonder if anyone has done anything more detailed (with city blocks and such)?
I have been working on Threshold and the area off and on now. Here is the two versions of the town: Old and New
Course with K:KoA I've been able to place some businesses now, but when I get everything done I'll post it here. (And then start work on a netbook for the town.)

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by happylarry » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:35 am

Hi.

Been working on a 1 mile per hex map of the area Simone mapped in 2.7mile hex 18 months ago. so here it is:

Image

Two comments:
1. mostly I've just scaled up from Simone's map, with the exception of Threshold - where I've used the stuff in this thread, and the rock area - I had a look back at the module when I was doing this map
2. I've added one additional place - Tarnskeep

some thoughts:
1. what else should be on a map of this scale? should things like some of the 'hundreds of homesteads' mentioned on page 6 of Gaz 1 be included? or any staging inns along the main roads etc. Also - what about more localised geographical features - for example, what is the pass through the mountains near Old Antilles Castle called?
2. are the 'traditional' settlement symbols the best here, or would it be better - a little bit like with the rock and the old caves - to use a smaller and perhaps more precise locator?
3. I haven't varied the terrain from the original map, so it does look a little bland at the moment.

all thoughts and observations much appreciated!


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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Mike » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:09 pm

A traditional farm was 40 acres, enough to support a family, and about the maximum a single family could work. This size would allow 16 farms per square mile in densely-settled farmland. Since threshold is a border area let's assume generous homesteads of 50 acres, leaving some room for woods and stuff. (Of that land, maybe 15-20 acres is under cultivation, while the remainder is either pasture for livestock, or woodland for pigs. One acre of pasture per cow, 2 acres per horse, 1/2 acre per sheep.)

The Threshold area is threatened by bandits and humanoids, so most settlers will be near a garrison. Four miles is considered the effective striking distance from a castle, so most homesteads should be located within that radius. The zone immediately around threshold and other castles, towers, or fortitude manors should be densely settled.

Additionally, ten miles was considered the maximum distance from a farm to a market town, since that's as far as a farmer could drive a wagon into town, trade, and make it back home in the evening. Generally all farmsteads should no further than one 8-mile hex from a town.

A one-mile hex has an area of approx. 550 acres, enough for 10 homesteads plus a wooded area, swamp, hill, or lake. Those 10 homesteads represent maybe 60-70 people. These will be supported by a small "village" with at least a church and a pub, so add another 5-10 urban population. That's about 75 people per hex, and a density of 86 people per square mile.

I'd guess that population thins rapidly the further you get from town. The "clear" hexes within four miles of a town or castle can be densely settled; forest and hill hexes within four miles maybe only 50% settled. Beyond that would be only scattered homesteads, fortified and self-sufficient, and these should still be within 8 miles of a town (allowing for rough, winding roads).

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Hugin » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:27 pm

That's some useful info there Mike! Thanks.

I love seeing these detailed maps! They really help in visualizing the landscape. All we need is some elevation contour lines!

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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by Zendrolion » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:16 am

happylarry wrote:Been working on a 1 mile per hex map of the area Simone mapped in 2.7mile hex 18 months ago.
Great work! 8-)
some thoughts:
1. what else should be on a map of this scale? should things like some of the 'hundreds of homesteads' mentioned on page 6 of Gaz 1 be included? or any staging inns along the main roads etc. Also - what about more localised geographical features - for example, what is the pass through the mountains near Old Antilles Castle called?
Some minor village could be added to the map (like the ones marked on PC4's map - in the 100-499 population range). I wouldn't crowd the map with homestead, however, unless they're of some special interest. There's no canon name for the pass leading from Verge to Threshold, so we are free to call it with whatever name we like.
2. are the 'traditional' settlement symbols the best here, or would it be better - a little bit like with the rock and the old caves - to use a smaller and perhaps more precise locator?
I'd keep in line with 1-mile-per-hex map of PC4, so I'd say the symbols you used are ok. I also like very much how you made use of the "adventure module site" symbol from Companion Set. ;)
3. I haven't varied the terrain from the original map, so it does look a little bland at the moment.
You could add some "rocky peaks" like the ones I put in my MGAZ1's map of the Altan Tepes. They'd represent mountain peaks (whatever their height) which cannot be passed through unless you climb them.

Moreover, what about adding a path leading from Highdell to the nearby mines, and a trail leading from the main road to the Old Antilles' Castle?
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Re: mapping around threshold

Post by enpeze » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:46 pm

thorf, I really love your detailed mystara-maps. How do you do these maps? May I ask you which software progs you use for it? thanks.

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