[Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

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[Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Thu May 12, 2011 6:02 pm

I'm scrounging the web for information related to the last days of the Traldar, particularly Petra and Krakatos.

Besides the stuff at The Vaults, I've also found some usable material on the Church of Traladara and some important Feast days here. Does anybody know from where this is sourced? Almanacs?

Can any of you suggest other sources and sites where I might get good crunchy material on the Song of Halav, the Big Three Traladaran Immortals, Krakatos?


Also, a thought-dump on ongoing research, also posted on the Chronicle's Facebook page. Please feel free to visit and add to it (if that's possible. Still figuring out the whole Facebook Page thing):

Idea dump: central-ish Karameikos
by Thorn's Chronicle on Thursday, May 12, 2011 at 11:56am
In reading through some material for upcoming events in the Chronicle, a ton of ideas have crowded into my head, and I have to get them down in some form before I lose most of them.

Krakatos - Petra's home village, also said to be the site where Halav slays the Beastman King. The battle lays waste to the village, and though it is an ideal location for settlement, it is left untouched by the Traladarans as a sacred site.

I plan to set a good portion of events of Wake in the ruins, so will need to scrape up all pre-Kingdom of Karameikos research material on this place.

Also: tie-ins to Halaran's Order of Petra (see Eirmont 28th); Petra's Handmaiden(s) (see introductory notes on TC1)

Zirchev -- taught magic by the Hutaaka, he has taken on a bit of a beastly aspect over the ages. Woodsman, mage, hunter. Perfect launchpad for a possible origin of Eberron Shifters and shifting. I'd wanted to include them in Karameikos since I started this project, and this seems like the doorway I've been looking for to work them in. While lycanthropes are feared and reviled (perhaps this is a result of some Nithian curse gone wild? Must research timelines (Nithia, Karameikos, Alphatia), shifters are seen as "mostly all right."; lycanthrope vulnerability to silver: The Silver Flame, and Petra (Matera is revered as a symbol of Petra's in old Traldar/Traladaran folklore, Asterius be damned ;) )
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Fri May 13, 2011 1:59 am

Second research topic: Mystaran Astronomy.

I know CM 7 has lots of juicy tidbits on the elven zodiac. I've seen Lo Zompatore's work in the Vaults of Pandius. Does anyone know if he's ever posted corrections to that work, recalibrating Mystara and Matera's orbits to counter-clockwise?

The Gazetteer calendars list meteor showers the last four days of the Thyatian year. Has there ever been a canon name for this annual event? The closest I could find for Earth is the Geminid meteor showers in mid-December.

Sheesh. The older I get, the more I know I don't know....
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Fri May 13, 2011 12:32 pm

Hail the Heroes has a handout containing a summary of the Song of Halav, but it mostly copies the version given in Karameikos Kingdom of Adventure. There is a suggestion on the CD (a quote from the old cleric) that the early Church didn't always agree that Halav and Petra were lovers.
IIRC work on the Piazza has suggested that the Order of St Kruskiev (Dark Knight of Karameikos) was dedicated to preserving the Song of Halav as an oral tradition, rather than the version written down circa AC 400 by Thyatian clerics.
Hope this is useful.
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by Havard » Fri May 13, 2011 12:45 pm

RobJN wrote:I'm scrounging the web for information related to the last days of the Traldar, particularly Petra and Krakatos.

Besides the stuff at The Vaults, I've also found some usable material on the Church of Traladara and some important Feast days here. Does anybody know from where this is sourced? Almanacs?
Check the Calendar section from Gaz1.
Can any of you suggest other sources and sites where I might get good crunchy material on the Song of Halav, the Big Three Traladaran Immortals, Krakatos?
If you are looking for Canon sources, Gaz1, K:KoA, WotI and possibly the HW boxed set are the only ones I can think of.

Krakatos - Petra's home village, also said to be the site where Halav slays the Beastman King. The battle lays waste to the village, and though it is an ideal location for settlement, it is left untouched by the Traladarans as a sacred site.
IMC, I consider Krakatos a greek-style City State, probably the most important one besides King Milen's City (Marilinev IMC). Lavv, Halag and Achelos were other important City States. James Mishler once described Petra as a Xena-style Warrior Princess which I think is a good way of looking at her. Petra was most likely the daughter of the King of Krakatos (each city having its own King).

Greek Mythology would be a good place to start fleshing out these city states as well as real greek history. I definately see cities plagued by Labyrinth imprisoned Minotaurs, Hydras demanding the flesh of virgins, Immortals taking on mortal form and seducing nobles etc.
I plan to set a good portion of events of Wake in the ruins, so will need to scrape up all pre-Kingdom of Karameikos research material on this place.

I think I made a map of Halav Era Traladara once. I ran a one shot game in this setting a couple of years ago.
Zirchev -- taught magic by the Hutaaka, he has taken on a bit of a beastly aspect over the ages. Woodsman, mage, hunter. Perfect launchpad for a possible origin of Eberron Shifters and shifting. I'd wanted to include them in Karameikos since I started this project, and this seems like the doorway I've been looking for to work them in. While lycanthropes are feared and reviled (perhaps this is a result of some Nithian curse gone wild?
Sounds like a great idea. I think older fan material links Zirchev to the Achelos region. Didnt Patrick Sullivan write an adventure connecting these things?
Must research timelines (Nithia, Karameikos, Alphatia), shifters are seen as "mostly all right."; lycanthrope vulnerability to silver: The Silver Flame, and Petra (Matera is revered as a symbol of Petra's in old Traldar/Traladaran folklore, Asterius be damned ;) )
It really makes sense that old symbols are tied both to old Traladaran Immortals and the new Thyatian ones, the new religion appropriating the symbols of old.

Btw, check out Mishler's Tarsian Twelve article about pre-Halav traladaran religion which will be useful for this setting. Also, you will need to look into Taymoran history. I have old Taymoran horrors lurking in every shadow of the Traldar Era.

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Fri May 13, 2011 12:55 pm

Dragon mag once had a map of Kingdom era Krakatos, with the new School of Magecraft, but I'm not sure what issue, sorry.

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by Chimpman » Fri May 13, 2011 4:35 pm

I'm behind on my Chrinicles. Trying to catch up, but it might take me a while. In the meantime this caught my eye.
RobJN wrote:Zirchev -- taught magic by the Hutaaka, he has taken on a bit of a beastly aspect over the ages. Woodsman, mage, hunter. Perfect launchpad for a possible origin of Eberron Shifters and shifting. I'd wanted to include them in Karameikos since I started this project, and this seems like the doorway I've been looking for to work them in. While lycanthropes are feared and reviled (perhaps this is a result of some Nithian curse gone wild? Must research timelines (Nithia, Karameikos, Alphatia), shifters are seen as "mostly all right."; lycanthrope vulnerability to silver: The Silver Flame, and Petra (Matera is revered as a symbol of Petra's in old Traldar/Traladaran folklore, Asterius be damned ;) )
I have my own take on lycanthropy that doesn't necessarily fit exactly with the canon take.

In my view, lycanthropy was developed by the Taymorans as a way to create a force of shock troops easily controllable by the vampiric nobility. Later when the Nithians come on the scene, they are able to bring lycanthropy under control, and even start to make it an acceptable and desired aspect of life. Orders form around each of the animal forms and lycanthropes become valued servants to the pharaohs.

Then of course, Nithia becomes corrupted, and the immortals erase all memory of the nation and its people from the mortals of Mystara. With that act, the knowledge required to reign in lycanthropy also disappears and a renewed plague rages across Brun, most notably in the Nithian colonies on Minrothad and Ierendi (this was perhaps an end goal of the Entropics who helped cause Nithia's corruption). It's even possible that some ancient Taymoran horrors lurking in or near Ierendi take advantage of the situation and help fan the flames of the plague.

Shifters could be the lucky few descendants of those Nithian Orders who managed to retain control over their former curse. Since then they have become a unique offshoot of the curse - one that has the ability to function normally in the societies around them. Perhaps because their brand of lycanthropy is not longer transmittable through physical contact, but only through offspring.
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Fri May 13, 2011 4:44 pm

Later when the Nithians come on the scene, they are able to bring lycanthropy under control
Would that explain the Nithian Immortals and images of animal headed humans?

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Fri May 13, 2011 4:54 pm

Found this brief description of the Song from KKoA if its any help;
"The original song was presented in a Traladaran chant format, consist­ing of eight lines of equal cadence, with the fourth and eighth lines rhyming."

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by Chimpman » Fri May 13, 2011 5:19 pm

mister c wrote:
Later when the Nithians come on the scene, they are able to bring lycanthropy under control
Would that explain the Nithian Immortals and images of animal headed humans?
;) That was one thought when I developed those ideas.
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Fri May 13, 2011 9:12 pm

mister c wrote:Dragon mag once had a map of Kingdom era Krakatos, with the new School of Magecraft, but I'm not sure what issue, sorry.
This was issue 207 July, 1994
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Fri May 13, 2011 9:30 pm

Havard wrote:
Check the Calendar section from Gaz1.
I really need to put all the different Gazetteer holiday references into a spreadsheet of some sort...
If you are looking for Canon sources, Gaz1, K:KoA, WotI and possibly the HW boxed set are the only ones I can think of.
Time to dust off my copies of the HW and WotI boxed sets. :D

IMC, I consider Krakatos a greek-style City State, probably the most important one besides King Milen's City (Marilinev IMC). Lavv, Halag and Achelos were other important City States. James Mishler once described Petra as a Xena-style Warrior Princess which I think is a good way of looking at her. Petra was most likely the daughter of the King of Krakatos (each city having its own King).
The material I've been reading has stated that Petra was mostly pacifist, a defender and healer. She would have to have a very strong personality in a (presumably) patriarchal society that would have been Bronze Age Traladara, and I never pictured her as any kind of pushover, though I don't know that she was out there in the trenches with King Halav. It very well could be she was, and I like the idea of having conflicting views of her personality and relationship with Halav (mentioned further down by misterc.)
Greek Mythology would be a good place to start fleshing out these city states as well as real greek history. I definately see cities plagued by Labyrinth imprisoned Minotaurs, Hydras demanding the flesh of virgins, Immortals taking on mortal form and seducing nobles etc.
Not so sure about labyrinths and minotaurs (I'd leave those to Minea over on Skothar), but Hydras could definitely be worked in somewhere. Might be interesting for Petra herself to manifest and watch the..er.. "festivities."
I think I made a map of Halav Era Traladara once. I ran a one shot game in this setting a couple of years ago.
Don't suppose you still have it and might be willing to share? :D
I think older fan material links Zirchev to the Achelos region. Didnt Patrick Sullivan write an adventure connecting these things?
I've been reading a lot of material that has him hanging around over in Dymrak. That strikes me as having too many movers and shakers all bunched into one area. I think I'd go with the Achelos connection.
Btw, check out Mishler's Tarsian Twelve article about pre-Halav traladaran religion which will be useful for this setting. Also, you will need to look into Taymoran history. I have old Taymoran horrors lurking in every shadow of the Traldar Era.
Never would have pulled that article out of the Vaults without a mention of it, thanks Havard. I'll have to pick Chimpman's brain about what Taymoran ruins would have been around to build over in that area....
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Fri May 13, 2011 9:37 pm

Chimpman wrote:I'm behind on my Chrinicles. Trying to catch up, but it might take me a while. In the meantime this caught my eye.

I have my own take on lycanthropy that doesn't necessarily fit exactly with the canon take.

In my view, lycanthropy was developed by the Taymorans as a way to create a force of shock troops easily controllable by the vampiric nobility. Later when the Nithians come on the scene, they are able to bring lycanthropy under control, and even start to make it an acceptable and desired aspect of life. Orders form around each of the animal forms and lycanthropes become valued servants to the pharaohs.

Then of course, Nithia becomes corrupted, and the immortals erase all memory of the nation and its people from the mortals of Mystara. With that act, the knowledge required to reign in lycanthropy also disappears and a renewed plague rages across Brun, most notably in the Nithian colonies on Minrothad and Ierendi (this was perhaps an end goal of the Entropics who helped cause Nithia's corruption). It's even possible that some ancient Taymoran horrors lurking in or near Ierendi take advantage of the situation and help fan the flames of the plague.

Shifters could be the lucky few descendants of those Nithian Orders who managed to retain control over their former curse. Since then they have become a unique offshoot of the curse - one that has the ability to function normally in the societies around them. Perhaps because their brand of lycanthropy is not longer transmittable through physical contact, but only through offspring.
Good stuff to chew on here! By all means lycanthropy isn't something that should only have one source. Like the Red Curse along the Savage Coast, its origins and causes are made of several different events all intermingled and tangled up. I'm thinking wererats would be the only "native" lycanthropy, with it being a result of Hel or the Egg of Coot back in the days before the Great Rain of Fire. The Radiance would probably have spawned more versions, and the intermingling of demonic bloodlines into the Afridhi would have led to still more. THEN we would get to the Taymoran "selective breeding" program which was picked up and refined by the Nithians. When they fell, the Alphatians brought their own brand into the mix....
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Fri May 13, 2011 9:44 pm

mister c wrote:Hail the Heroes has a handout containing a summary of the Song of Halav, but it mostly copies the version given in Karameikos Kingdom of Adventure. There is a suggestion on the CD (a quote from the old cleric) that the early Church didn't always agree that Halav and Petra were lovers.
I'd forgotten about that. Might be an interesting angle to pursue, if only as a cultural twist.
IIRC work on the Piazza has suggested that the Order of St Kruskiev (Dark Knight of Karameikos) was dedicated to preserving the Song of Halav as an oral tradition, rather than the version written down circa AC 400 by Thyatian clerics.
Hope this is useful.
misterc
I wish they'd spent more time on things like THAT rather than the *ahem* "prison" or trying to tie Mystara into the silly Blood War.....
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by yellowdingo » Sat May 14, 2011 2:19 pm

Lycans: the True strain

The Lycanthropy question falls to my thoughts on its Origins. In X5 Temple of Death the PCs discover the Well of the Moon from which Lycanthropy may be gained by consumption of Water. However that form of Lycanthropy has no Animal Subtype because it is from no Animal.

If a PC has access to a pure strain of Lycanthropy with no animal subtype then it is quite possibile for even Demihumans to become Lycanthropes - Were-Elves.


The Origins of Halav and Petra

Halav: Hule-es(Archaic), Forest-man, Man of the Forest, Woodsman, Huntsman, (An Elf or other Sylvan Entity?)
Petra: A Cliff, A Wall of Stone, (A fortress?)

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Sun May 15, 2011 10:00 am

The material I've been reading has stated that Petra was mostly pacifist, a defender and healer.
Petra's symbol shows a large round shield with a central boss (misinterpreted by later scholars as a pot on a wheel). I would think that this shows some knowledge of warfare, albeit defensive. If we're thinking Ancient Greek here, then the shield works best in conjunction with the wielders companions in a phalanx, thus it could be said to represent teamwork etc.

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Sun May 15, 2011 11:04 am

mister c wrote:
The material I've been reading has stated that Petra was mostly pacifist, a defender and healer.
Petra's symbol shows a large round shield with a central boss (misinterpreted by later scholars as a pot on a wheel). I would think that this shows some knowledge of warfare, albeit defensive. If we're thinking Ancient Greek here, then the shield works best in conjunction with the wielders companions in a phalanx, thus it could be said to represent teamwork etc.
My thoughts exactly -- while Halav led the troops, Petra's tactics kept them alive ;) Another thought on her symbol, the shield/potter's wheel: it could be an eye, maybe even the Eye of Traldar. And what if she didn't build the walls up around Krakatos to keep Beastmen out, but something else in?
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Sun May 15, 2011 3:23 pm

what if she didn't build the walls up around Krakatos to keep Beastmen out, but something else in?
Ooooo, love to see what you come up with along these lines.

As for the Eye(s) of Traldar, they are a major driving force behind my campaign, though most of it is not canon. I suspect it won't fit with yoru ideas (as I understand them), but if your interested, I can elaborate.

Cheers
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by yellowdingo » Mon May 16, 2011 12:28 am

I went looking for some meaning in the name (the TSR guys had a messed sense of humor).

Krakatos has two possible meanings:

Krakatos: Krek - Ater (Archaic) To Weave Fire; Cura - ak - at - os (Archaic), Care, sharp to go mouth, A warning about sticking sharp things in your mouth?, A curator of sharp tongues?

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Mon May 23, 2011 7:43 am

I believe the Traladara Gazetteer develops the Traldar calendar and introduces more festivals. Many of these tie into the history of Halave etc.

IMC I included;
Plough Day, Numont 14, when clerics of Petra bless farmers ploughs and, wether permitting, a ritual first furrow is cut.
The Crowning of Zirchev's Queen, Moldain 18, when in rural communities the villagers select one girl to be the ‘Queen of Zirchev’ for the following year. The girl must spend a night in the woods (usually well guarded), after which she officiates at a number of village events.
These were intended to suggest typical rural agricultural bases festivities.
Hope this helps
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by Havard » Mon May 23, 2011 8:30 am

mister c wrote:IMC I included;
Plough Day, Numont 14, when clerics of Petra bless farmers ploughs and, wether permitting, a ritual first furrow is cut.
The Crowning of Zirchev's Queen, Moldain 18, when in rural communities the villagers select one girl to be the ‘Queen of Zirchev’ for the following year. The girl must spend a night in the woods (usually well guarded), after which she officiates at a number of village events.
These were intended to suggest typical rural agricultural bases festivities.
Hope this helps
misterc
Great concept mister C! :)

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by yellowdingo » Mon May 23, 2011 9:52 pm

I found an Anomaly in the Indo European roots of the Word Krakatos...and an association in Achelos.

Krakatos: Cura - ak - at - os (archaic), Care - Sharp to go Mouth, Curator, Guardian
Achelos: Ak - el - os (archaic), Sharp into Mouth

There is an implication where Achelos is the 'dangerous place', and Krakatos is where the curator or the Guardian of the 'dangerous place' is located. That seems in keeping with Zirchev of Achelos residing in Krakatos.

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by Havard » Mon May 23, 2011 9:57 pm

Wouldnt it make more sense to have the Neathar be similar to the Indo Europeic baseline? Early Traladaran OTOH would be somewhere between ancient Greek and Slavic.

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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by RobJN » Mon May 23, 2011 10:35 pm

mister c wrote:I believe the Traladara Gazetteer develops the Traldar calendar and introduces more festivals. Many of these tie into the history of Halave etc.

IMC I included;
Plough Day, Numont 14, when clerics of Petra bless farmers ploughs and, wether permitting, a ritual first furrow is cut.
The Crowning of Zirchev's Queen, Moldain 18, when in rural communities the villagers select one girl to be the ‘Queen of Zirchev’ for the following year. The girl must spend a night in the woods (usually well guarded), after which she officiates at a number of village events.
These were intended to suggest typical rural agricultural bases festivities.
Hope this helps
misterc
Ooh, very good stuff. GAZ 1 gives us "Beast Day" which was Halav's holiday. I like these others for Petra and Zirchev!
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Re: [Thorn's Chronicle Crunch]: Researching Krakatos

Post by mister c » Tue May 24, 2011 5:01 pm

I probably didn't make it clear, but I meant the Traladara Gazetteer by Jennifer Favia Guerra (see the Fan Productions thread).

She has done some great work on the culture and history of the Traldar, well worth a read.

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