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How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:04 am
by Gecko
I'm trying to convert and stat-up a Blue Dragon NPC from another system into 3e, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to keep one of the dragon's abilities-

The dragon frequently takes a human form, but an age category 8 Blue Dragon does not have any such ability, and with 9th level sorcerous spell casting, can only cast 4th level spells, so therefore does not have access to the 5th level spell Polymorph.

Is there a magic item I could give him? Or a feat or lesser spell I'm overlooking?

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:23 pm
by Birchbeer
Hmm, I found items to make a human into a dragon, but not vice versa. Would illusion magic work? Or taking levels in druid to get wild shape? Perhaps create a new item based off of a ring of Dragonshape (From Draconomicon page 119) which instead instead is a ring of Humanshape? I don't think it would be made by a dragon but instead I could see it being of Elven Origin either Drow or Grey to infiltrate Humans without arousing suspicion. Not sure on the duration, either make it unlimited as long as worn, or up to 18 hours.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:49 pm
by willpell
Are you using 3.0 or 3.5? Regardless of the answer, though, I think Polymorph is a level-4 spell, available as of sorcerer level 8. I forget when dragons get their spellcasting (many never do, at least not within a PC-playable ECL which is a pet peeve of mine), but I do know spell levels pretty well.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:56 pm
by RobJN
You're the DM. Just make it so.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:12 pm
by willpell
RobJN wrote:You're the DM. Just make it so.
Or, alternatively, stick fairly closely to the Rules as Written in order to keep things fair to the players, preserve game balance, and avoid compatibility problems with published material. But feel free to use the full extent of your fiatting powers to create (and properly price/restrict/etc) options that will make your version work.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:42 pm
by Gecko
willpell wrote:I think Polymorph is a level-4 spell, available as of sorcerer level 8.
:? :shock: :o :oops: :facepalm:

oh bleep, it IS a level 4 spell. I could of sworn I read that it was a level 5 one, dooh!. So he does have access to this spell. Never mind, thanks and sorry all.
Birchbeer wrote:Would illusion magic work?
umm, what did you have in mind? This dragon's description has that he is supposed to be an expert in illusion magics.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:59 pm
by willpell
Gecko wrote:I could of sworn I read that it was a level 5 one, dooh!

You were probably thinking of Baleful Polymporph, which I do believe is 5.
Birchbeer wrote:Would illusion magic work?
umm, what did you have in mind? This dragon's description has that he is supposed to be an expert in illusion magics.
At a guess he may have been suggesting that the dragon use a Major Image or the like to disguise himself as a non-dragon, rather than actually shapeshifting into one. (There's a scenario in the Book of Challenges where the reverse occurs.)

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:16 pm
by Noxxon
Gecko wrote:Is there a magic item I could give him?
Do not know if it was ever converted to other editions, but there is the Circlet of the Wyrm (see Cult of the Dragon - AD&D 2E Forgotten Realms). Though it may be a bit more than your looking for, maybe a toned-down version of the item could fit.


Noxxon

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:57 am
by Birchbeer
Gecko wrote:
Birchbeer wrote:Would illusion magic work?
umm, what did you have in mind? This dragon's description has that he is supposed to be an expert in illusion magics.
He could use Major Image (3rd), perhaps some Mage Hand (0) for when he needs to manipulate an object. To keep himself hidden I'd recommend he use Greater Invisibility(4th) (possibly with a tweak to mask spell as well). And to keep things interesting he can also keep a Hallucinatory Terrain (4th) going to slightly mask the surroundings. The PC's might be able to do a detect magic and discover there is an illusion, but probably be distracted by the Terrain that they fail to see the Invisible dragon or the that the Image isn't real. :)

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:15 pm
by rabindranath72
Give it a Alternate Form ability like the Gold dragons. It's not going to impact combat anyway, so "balance" or "being fair to players" are not really issues.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:57 pm
by Noxxon
rabindranath72 wrote:Give it a Alternate Form ability like the Gold dragons.
The Council of Wyrms setting allows the various dragon species to breed with each other, so having a Blue/Gold, Blue/Silver or Blue/Deep dragon is do-able. You would keep everything as if the dragon was a Blue, but would have to exchange one of the dragon's innate abilities for the polymorph/shape change ability of the other parent. You may want to make sure that the ability of the second parent fits with the dragon's age category.


Noxxon

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:09 pm
by willpell
Better yet, just take a normal Gold Dragon, slap the Half-Dragon (Blue) template on it, and call it a day.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:52 pm
by Gecko
(edit conflict)
willpell wrote:You were probably thinking of Baleful Polymporph, which I do believe is 5.
Actually, I'm wondering if I had somehow confused it with Persistent Image, which I was also looking at for this conversion.
Noxxon wrote:
Gecko wrote:Is there a magic item I could give him?
Do not know if it was ever converted to other editions, but there is the Circlet of the Wyrm (see Cult of the Dragon - AD&D 2E Forgotten Realms). Though it may be a bit more than your looking for, maybe a toned-down version of the item could fit.
Thanks, I'll have to try to find that - though I'm probably just going to stick with the Polymorph spell since I was misteaken and it is only a 4th level spell.
Birchbeer wrote:
Gecko wrote:
Birchbeer wrote:Would illusion magic work?
umm, what did you have in mind? This dragon's description has that he is supposed to be an expert in illusion magics.
He could use Major Image (3rd), perhaps some Mage Hand (0) for when he needs to manipulate an object. To keep himself hidden I'd recommend he use Greater Invisibility(4th) (possibly with a tweak to mask spell as well). And to keep things interesting he can also keep a Hallucinatory Terrain (4th) going to slightly mask the surroundings. The PC's might be able to do a detect magic and discover there is an illusion, but probably be distracted by the Terrain that they fail to see the Invisible dragon or the that the Image isn't real. :)
hmm... He would have to stop concentrating on Major Image to use Mage Hand, meaning the illusion would then end in 3 rounds. Of course this particular individual does have the help of Djinni's, so perhaps an invisible Djinni could move things for him. interesting possibility to consider.
Old Blue's get Hallucinatory Terrain as a 1/day spell-like ability, so that wouldn't even take up one his limited 4th level spell choices.
RobJN wrote:You're the DM. Just make it so.
&
rabindranath72 wrote:Give it a Alternate Form ability like the Gold dragons. It's not going to impact combat anyway, so "balance" or "being fair to players" are not really issues.
If I was about to use him in a game, I would, but alas this isn't for anything upcoming, rather just statting up and converting some dragon NPCs for Mystara.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:59 pm
by Gecko
Noxxon wrote:The Council of Wyrms setting allows the various dragon species to breed with each other
Back in my 2E day's I used some CoW stuff for Mystaran Dragons, but I don't believe there's any 3e conversions for the rules, right?
willpell wrote:Better yet, just take a normal Gold Dragon, slap the Half-Dragon (Blue) template on it, and call it a day.
I had looked into that, but the template is a bit broken if you use it on a Dragon base creature

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:12 am
by Noxxon
Gecko wrote:
Noxxon wrote:The Council of Wyrms setting allows the various dragon species to breed with each other
Back in my 2E day's I used some CoW stuff for Mystaran Dragons, but I don't believe there's any 3e conversions for the rules, right?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/138406851/D20 ... -Wyrms-pdf

Edit: Also found http://www.mediafire.com/download/fwwrv ... dition.zip


Noxxon

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:47 pm
by willpell
So here's a better question - if playing by strict RAW, how do you get a green dragon into human form, given that they're significantly less magically talented than blues?

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:18 pm
by enderxenocide0
Is there a restriction on sources? Because Dragons of Eberron has the Alternate Form feat for any dragon with a Sorcerer level of 5th or higher. There's a sidebar about how some dragons in Eberron stay hidden in humanoid populations. There's 3 feats and a spell:

Alternate Form - Feat, gives a dragon the alternate form ability.
Half-Dragon Form - Feat, lets a dragon with alternate form become a half-dragon.
Hidden Strength - Feat, lets a dragon in alternate form gain a STR and CON bonus.
Strength of the True Form - Spell, lets a creature in a different shape use its ability scores or the score of its new shape, whichever is higher.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:20 pm
by willpell
Well it's not eberron per se, but I'm the DM so I could approve the use of that feat. It's backstory for an NPC, I just prefer to stick to RAW as much as possible and not just arbitrarily assign "wicked cool" abilities to my storyline characters, with no way for the heroes to ever duplicate those feats regardless of their level.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:06 am
by Gecko
Noxxon- thanks, I'll have to take a look at those if I ever get some time

willpell- does the dragon have any class levels?

enderxenocide0- Costing a feat sounds fair. I looked it up (sidebar on page 15 for anyone following this discussion) it requires "Sorcerer level 5th", does that mean he need's 5 levels in Sorcerer or does the natural spellcasting of a 9th level sorcerer satisfy that?
(p.s. like the username by the way- I got books 2 & 3 of the First Formic Wars at christmas, but haven't had time to read them yet.)

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:35 am
by Boneguard
Noxxon wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:Give it a Alternate Form ability like the Gold dragons.
The Council of Wyrms setting allows the various dragon species to breed with each other, so having a Blue/Gold, Blue/Silver or Blue/Deep dragon is do-able. You would keep everything as if the dragon was a Blue, but would have to exchange one of the dragon's innate abilities for the polymorph/shape change ability of the other parent. You may want to make sure that the ability of the second parent fits with the dragon's age category.


Noxxon
The 2nd Edition, Draconomicon actually had hard rules for those type of Dragon mating, covering, size, breath weapon, abilities and spells.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:18 pm
by enderxenocide0
Gecko wrote:Costing a feat sounds fair. I looked it up (sidebar on page 15 for anyone following this discussion) it requires "Sorcerer level 5th", does that mean he need's 5 levels in Sorcerer or does the natural spellcasting of a 9th level sorcerer satisfy that?
Per Dragon Magic and the Draconomicon, natural spellcasting as a sorcerer counts as sorcerer levels for dragons.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:38 pm
by Gecko
Boneguard wrote:The 2nd Edition, Draconomicon actually had hard rules for those type of Dragon mating, covering, size, breath weapon, abilities and spells.
I didn't even know there was one in 2e.
Edit: oh, it's Forgotten Realms, that's why I never heard of it. I never got into FR and only ever bought one FR item- and that was a gift for someone else. I have looked over some of the 3e stuff for FR though as it seems like FR (along with Eberron) got the most 3e support.
enderxenocide0 wrote:
Gecko wrote:...it requires "Sorcerer level 5th", does that mean he need's 5 levels in Sorcerer or does the natural spellcasting of a 9th level sorcerer satisfy that?
Per Dragon Magic and the Draconomicon, natural spellcasting as a sorcerer counts as sorcerer levels for dragons.
excellent, thank you.

Re: How to get a Blue Dragon into human form?

Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:27 pm
by genghisdon
Sorcerer levels stack with "natural" sorcerer casting levels too. One can advance a dragon, say, with class levels OR by age or both. As dragon HD are much more powerful in general, one usually just advances as a dragon, but it's still a very viable tool.

The main question is answered already, but in 3e L8+ ability is enough for polymorph self (or polymorph other). 3.5e baleful polymorph is raised to a L5 spell, but it's not needed, and polymorph remains L4 anyway.

There are other spells & methods to gain the ability as well, some have been mentioned.