Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

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Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby Angelika Tatsu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:34 am

Never played in any adventures or campaigns where the characters or NPCs had access to Disjunction. I am curious if anyone here on the forums has experience with the spell in play either as a player or a DM. How did affect the game? Do the rules of the spell break continuity or is it an adventure/campaign ender? In the case of the latter being yes, are there any fixes to it that you would recommend?
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Re: Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby Michael Silverbane » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:05 pm

I have run a couple of high level games that featured some use of disjunction. In no case did it ever threaten to end the entire campaign. A couple of times, however, the repercussions were greater than anticipated (one or two characters were highly wrecked).

To me, disjunction is broken in much the same way that all high level spellcasting is broken. It is one of many many options available only to high level spellcasters, and it disproportionately affects non-spellcasters. A wizard caught in a disjunction loses all of his active buffs. This is bad. A fighter caught in a disjunction loses all of his active buffs and all (or most) of his magic items. This is the worst.

One possible quick fix is to make it so that disjunction does not affect attended magic items at all. Magic sword laying on the ground, rendered mundane. Magic sword in the hands of the fighter, a-okay. This at least alleviates the problem that, those who rely the most on magic items for their efficacy are not also the most likely to lose all of their magic items.
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Re: Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby Big Mac » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:14 pm

Angelika Tatsu wrote:Never played in any adventures or campaigns where the characters or NPCs had access to Disjunction.


One suggestion I saw for dealing with things that "break" the game is that the GM doesn't need to make NPCs use certain abilities that would break his/her own game...

...but...

...if the PCs develop a habit of using certain techniques, as if they are a "cheat code" to "beat D&D" then the in-character consequences would be that people in the world would get wise to the "effective strategy" and would copy it.

So you could safely ignore disjunction (not ban it - just ignore it) unless the PCs started to run around using it to zap every single adventure that you put them in.

And, even then, the GM should not be "punishing the PCs" for using the spell - it should be NPCs who survive who plot revenge against the PCs for thwarting their plans.

So if the PCs zap major magic items belonging to a cult, the cult could send assassins after the PCs or whatever.
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Re: Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby Big Mac » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:17 pm

Michael Silverbane wrote:One possible quick fix is to make it so that disjunction does not affect attended magic items at all. Magic sword laying on the ground, rendered mundane. Magic sword in the hands of the fighter, a-okay. This at least alleviates the problem that, those who rely the most on magic items for their efficacy are not also the most likely to lose all of their magic items.


That's an interesting house-rule. (And it would work equally well for NPCs.)

I suppose that, if you wanted something that was midway between your idea and the standard way the spell worked, you could give attended magic items two saving throws (their own Will save and also the Will save of the person holding them). That way an NPC or PC targeted by a Disjunction spell might still loose some of their items, but not all of them.
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Re: Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby timemrick » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:31 am

I have not yet played at the level where 9th-level spells come into play regularly, but my wife did play in a campaign that reached epic levels. One of the PCs was a sorcerer who learned disjunction at 18th level--and used it against the other PCs when he fell under a demon's control. She says that, in her experience with the spell, it was pretty nasty and could easily devastate a target relying on powerful magic items, but it didn't seem overpowered for a 9th-level spell.

IMO, characters who are powerful enough to gain 9th-level spells are going to be the ones that you expect to change the world in massive and unexpected ways--they're literally the living legends of their time.
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Re: Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby apotheot » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:09 am

I wouldn't say broken, but I have had high level players that were so fearful of loosing their magical gear that they used the most broken spell (contingency, which is mostly broken due to its omniscience) to have their characters teleported away if it was about to be cast.
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Re: Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby timemrick » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:11 am

apotheot wrote:I wouldn't say broken, but I have had high level players that were so fearful of loosing their magical gear that they used the most broken spell (contingency, which is mostly broken due to its omniscience) to have their characters teleported away if it was about to be cast.
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Teleported how far? Unless it's just a short hop to get out of the area, I can see a villain exploiting the hell out of that kind of paranoia. Cast the spell your archenemy the wizard PC is most phobic about, and *BAMF* he's somewhere else for a few seconds while you hose the rest of the party with it. :twisted:
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Re: Disjunction: How broke? Is there a fix?

Postby apotheot » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:09 pm

trust me, I did. :) but at those levels they can usually hop right back at full strength and prepared...maybe a few of the party were hurt a bit, but the villain is out at least one 9th level spell.
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