Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

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nick_crenshaw82
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Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by nick_crenshaw82 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:18 am

Would it be too OP to give all of the classes the Monk's unarmed strike abilities?

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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:53 pm

It wouldn't make sense. Especially with the classes that have very little martial training.

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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by nick_crenshaw82 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:36 pm

I was doing it for a wuxia style game with all the classes have martial skills but maybe with different amounts of damage for each class.

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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by brassdragon » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:57 pm

That sounds like a fun kind of crazy. I'd say try it, see how it goes, and be prepared to adjust how much opposition you throw at the PC's as you go.

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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by agathokles » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:49 pm

nick_crenshaw82 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:36 pm
I was doing it for a wuxia style game with all the classes have martial skills but maybe with different amounts of damage for each class.
You could use the Gestalt rules, allowing only Monk + another class combinations. This would make all characters martial arts experts, more or less like the old Dragonfist AD&D variant.

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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by BotWizo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:44 pm

One thing I can think of is that if you have any monk PCs they may feel underpowered or boring.

It could be that by making every class part monk, then no one goes to play a full monk.

If this is ok with you and your players, try it, and let us know. I have done various things like this at times, some changes put the game out of balance and some are really non changes.
I think overall this will only affect class choice but I could be wrong.
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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:01 am

nick_crenshaw82 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:36 pm
I was doing it for a wuxia style game with all the classes have martial skills but maybe with different amounts of damage for each class.
If you were telling everyone to do it, then it might seem a bit over-the-top, but if you are using it as a house rule for a specific campaign, and there is a reason behind it, it's fine...fun even.

You are right to wonder if it is "overpowered" as it is going to be giving other classes something that normally only the Monk gets. But perhaps watering it down a bit would still give the Monk enough of an advantage that players that choose Monks don't feel that their role has been stolen.

Let's take a look what the SRD says about the Monk's Unarmed Strike:
Monk page at The Hypertext d20 SRD wrote:Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
Flurry of Blows is a separate ability, so that would not be passed onto members of other classes. So your Unarmed Strike for other classes is already less powerful than what the Monk gets.

Interestingly the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat looks like it is the same thing as the Monk's Unarmed Strike (rather than an improved version of what the Monk gets):
Improved Unarmed Strike at The Hypertext d20 SRD wrote:Improved Unarmed Strike [General]

Benefit
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

Normal
Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.

Special
A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it.

A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.
So, it's kind of like you are really just giving everyone (except the Monk) the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat for free. Maybe you could just do that and give Monk characters a free Feat at 1st Level and have it "balance" out that way. :)

As for you wondering about "different amounts of damage, for different classes" the standard damage for an Unarmed Strike is 1d3 of non-lethal damage (as opposed to the Monk's 1d6 of lethal damage). So if you actually gave everyone the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat for free, they could all be a bit like a Monk, but the Monk would be doing twice as much damage and could also choose to do a Flurry of Blows on top of that.

It doesn't sound so overpowered that way, especially if you give the Monk a free Feat* to balance out the free Feat everyone else gets.

* = Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Snatch Arrows and Stunning Fist all have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, so perhaps they would be good options to choose from. That way, it would fit in with the unarmed strike theme.
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nick_crenshaw82
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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by nick_crenshaw82 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:30 pm

I thought to use the Beyond Monks-Martial Artist's unarmed damage and AC bonus with 3rd Ed. monk unarmed attack bonus and flurry. If I ever play (or have it played for me) I had other rules to use from other sources.

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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:16 pm

nick_crenshaw82 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:30 pm
I thought to use the Beyond Monks-Martial Artist's unarmed damage and AC bonus with 3rd Ed. monk unarmed attack bonus and flurry. If I ever play (or have it played for me) I had other rules to use from other sources.
I don't think I know that book.

BTW: Steve Miller sent you a message:
Steve Miller at the Facebook page for The Piazza wrote:Hmmm... I hadn't considered this, but now I will have to look at it and see if it can't be made into a feat that can then be augmented by talents (ala the superpowers I've been cooking up at the Nuelow Games blog and in various products.)

In other words, i don't think it'd be overpowered but it shouldn't be a class ability. It should be something that is chosen in place of something else, hence the feat.
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nick_crenshaw82
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Re: Would it be overpowered to give all classes the Monk's unarmed strike?

Post by nick_crenshaw82 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:34 pm

How about using the following in a wuxia game:

Campaign Qualities
As discussed, campaign qualities are what makes Spycraft 2.0 a fully adaptable — and if desired, multi-genre — platform. Any single quality tweaks one or two aspects of the game, allowing you to alter the basic system to suit your needs. Several choices dramatically modify gameplay, offering different ways to build characters, gear up, run action sequences, and more. Alternately, they can be used to simulate nearly any set of genre physics, from high realism to high cinema and everything in-between.
Before play begins, a campaign quality may be scripted into a mission as a complication, modifying the mission’s reward as noted in the campaign quality’s description (see page 435). Alternately, a campaign quality may be scripted into an entire season (a series of linked missions — see page 425), in which case it modifies the XP reward of every mission undertaken during the season. Some campaign qualities may only be scripted into full seasons, not single missions, as noted in their descriptions.
Also, the GC may add any campaign quality with a listed action die cost to a mission already in progress, in which case the mission XP reward is unchanged (see page 398). Any campaign quality added in this fashion lasts for the duration of the mission.
Fast Attributes (Seasons Only: –75 XP): Each player character gains 1 attribute point per 3 career levels (rather than 1 per 4 career levels, as standard).
Fast Feats (Seasons Only: –50 XP): Each player character gains 1 feat per 2 career levels (rather than 1 per 3 career levels, as standard).
Wire Fu (–25 XP, 1 GC Action Die): Personalities regularly defy the laws of physics. Each special and player character may take movement actions in any direction, even directly up through the air or along a vertical surface. If at the end of the character’s movement, he is not on a stable surface, he is subject to the falling rules. Any falling damage suffered, however, is reduced to ½ standard (rounded down).

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