4E's Legacy in Later Editions

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Havard
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4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by Havard » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:57 pm

Although D&D 4th Edition seems to have been the shortest lived edition to this time, it did attract many fans, and several elements from 4E made their way into 5th Edition (and beyond?).

At Will Abilities
Reduced Skill List
Action Surge and other Fighter Abilities
Tiefling Race in PHB
Dragonborn Race in PHB
Warlock Class in PHB


I'm sure I missed a ton of stuff. Can you think of more things that became common with 4E that has continued?

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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by Zeromaru X » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:47 pm

The eladrin elven subrace (its in the D&D Beyond, so its a legal subrace now)
The Dawn War pantheon of gods (in the DMG) - The Raven Queen its even in an UA.
The retconed Dark Sun timeline (its applied as such in the Dark Sun official "conversion tips" of Princes of the Apocalypse)
A few of its original lore has been inherited by the Forgotten Realms (even when they undid some Spellplague changes). Right now, I can re-call Io's death as an "Abeiran myth".

I can't recall more right now.

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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:57 pm

Hit dice and short/long rests are definitely influenced by 4e healing surges and short/long rests.
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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by NetoD20 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:26 pm

I really really don't like 4th edition, and I really dislike most of the things pointed out so far. However I do think 4th edition has at least one positive part in its legacy, to me anyway, which is the introduction of the Feywild. Even though I hate that they ended the CG outsider eladrin simply to name high elves eladrin, I genuinely LOVE that they made a direct connection between fey, elves (eladrin, ugh...), arcane magic, and nature, which was a connection that appeared very subtly in older editions, and which was suppressed by one of the tropes shared by other D&D-like RPGs which stablish fey and nature magic as almost exclusively the domain of divine magic, and that's all the fault of the druid. Somehow it seemed that just because a classic core class like the druid was the avatar of nature power in the game from the begining, then all nature magic had to be divine, there was almost never space for wizards and other arcane spellcasters to wield plant controlling magic, for example, and that's a shame. I'm not saying that mechanically that changed, not saying that wizards and sorcerers got Entangle and Living Oak added to their spell lists, I am just saying that at least fluff-wise, the connection was made. It always made complete sense to me that elves, independantly from Tolkien, were to be fey or at least fey-related, given Gygax's own influences for D&D elves. And being the ultimate wizard race and the ultimate tree-huggers, it only made sense for (high) elves to be master of both wizardry/arcane magic in general and nature/fey magic. So that's what I like about 4th edition legacy, that connection and the inclusion of the Feywild in order to elevate fey in general, not only elves, in the game.

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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:12 pm

NetoD20 wrote:I really really don't like 4th edition, and I really dislike most of the things pointed out so far. However I do think 4th edition has at least one positive part in its legacy, to me anyway, which is the introduction of the Feywild. Even though I hate that they ended the CG outsider eladrin simply to name high elves eladrin, I genuinely LOVE that they made a direct connection between fey, elves (eladrin, ugh...), arcane magic, and nature, which was a connection that appeared very subtly in older editions, and which was suppressed by one of the tropes shared by other D&D-like RPGs which stablish fey and nature magic as almost exclusively the domain of divine magic, and that's all the fault of the druid. Somehow it seemed that just because a classic core class like the druid was the avatar of nature power in the game from the begining, then all nature magic had to be divine, there was almost never space for wizards and other arcane spellcasters to wield plant controlling magic, for example, and that's a shame. I'm not saying that mechanically that changed, not saying that wizards and sorcerers got Entangle and Living Oak added to their spell lists, I am just saying that at least fluff-wise, the connection was made. It always made complete sense to me that elves, independantly from Tolkien, were to be fey or at least fey-related, given Gygax's own influences for D&D elves. And being the ultimate wizard race and the ultimate tree-huggers, it only made sense for (high) elves to be master of both wizardry/arcane magic in general and nature/fey magic. So that's what I like about 4th edition legacy, that connection and the inclusion of the Feywild in order to elevate fey in general, not only elves, in the game.

Good point about the Feywild. I agree with you about the Eladrin. I think that was just part of their strategy to incorporate Trade Marked names of races that they wanted to be in core and kinda liked the name Eladrin. I would have loved it if they called that race Sidhe since the Sidhe from BECMI/Mystara are not all that different from how Eladrin are presented in 4E (though with invisibility instead of teleportation). I think many of the concepts you mention were subtly hinted at earlier on, but 4E made them specific.

I know the Far Realm was introduced back in the 2nd Ed days, but wasn't it 4E that really made the Far Realm a prominent part of the cosmology too?

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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by Solauren » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:23 pm

My thoughts to these 'legacies'

At Will Abilities? I believe those were called Feats in 3.X
Reduced Skill List? I'll admit that is good
Action Surges and other Fighter abilities? Fighter fixes were a dime a dozen on the WOTC discussion boards. And Pathfinder did it better.
Tiefling in PHB: I agree that could have been done for 3.X The Same with Aasimar. At least they made it into the Monster Manual. (Still a Corebook!)
Dragonborn race in PHB: False positive. Dragonborn were developed for 3.5, after the PHBK was released. That's like thanking 2nd edition for the Forgotten realms.
Warlock Class in PHB: Same as Dragonborn race.

Eladrin as an Elven Subrace: You mean Gold and Silver Elves from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition Forgotten Realms? Another False Positive.
Dawn War Pantheon: I'll admit, that's a nice addition. New Pantheons/options always are.
Retconned Dark Sun Timeline: Not familiar with what they did. So long as it doesn't conflict with the published novels, I don't see an issue.
The Spellplague and everything related to it is not a good point. That basically took any existing home campaigns and said 'screw you!' to them. If they wanted to redo the Realms that badly (pun intended), they should have just pulled a 'Disney Star Wars EU' and scrapped it back to the original boxed set.

Short/Long Rests is basically the mechanics for renewing Sublime Way Maneuvers from the Tome of Battle in a new outfit.
Healing Surges: Those I like, as that eases on the cleric a bit.

The Feywild: New Planes are always welcome!
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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by Big Mac » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:04 am

NetoD20 wrote:I do think 4th edition has at least one positive part in its legacy, to me anyway, which is the introduction of the Feywild.
Welcome to The Piazza NetoD20 (or should I say thanks for delurking, as you are a 2012 member - 5 years is an impressive amount of lurking :) ). You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "hi" to everyone, and let people know what stuff you like to talk about.

I've kind of been troubled by the Feywild and other 4e changes to the planes myself. I like the Planescape cosmology and have wondered how to get the 4e stuff to fit into the Great Wheel cosmology. (The 3e product line also had some funky plane stuff, including bespoke cosmologies for Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and Eberron...and minor tweaks to the Great Wheel.)

I've kind of settled on a "Wonky Wheel" concept, where different sages on different worlds have their own theories about the Feywild. So I might be able to slot the 4e cosmology into the same universe as TSR campaign settings by saying that it is a Nentir Vale thing, or that sages on worlds other than Nentir Vale consider it to be a realm in another plane....or a demi-plane or somesuch.

You are not the first person to say good things about the Feywild, so I'll have to have a think about it. Maybe I'll start a topic in the Planescape forum, if there isn't already one.

EDIT: I made a Planescape topic: How does/could the Feywild fit into the Great Wheel?
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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:53 am

Solauren wrote:My thoughts to these 'legacies'

At Will Abilities? I believe those were called Feats in 3.X
IIRC, those feats are still "you gain this power you can use x-times per day". While there is no much difference for melee characters, it was a lot of difference for casters (having an infinite usable spell alongside the "only one usage per day" ones). It made casters less useless when they ran off of spell slots.

There is no infinity usable power in 3.x AFAIK (that is not much, as don't have many 3.x products). However, the point is that 4e gave you feats in addition to at will abilities. So, yo can take a feat and have your at will ability. You weren't wasting an option of having any other skill or ability (the feat) in getting more spells.

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Re: 4E's Legacy in Later Editions

Post by NetoD20 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:31 pm

Big Mac wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:I do think 4th edition has at least one positive part in its legacy, to me anyway, which is the introduction of the Feywild.
Welcome to The Piazza NetoD20 (or should I say thanks for delurking, as you are a 2012 member - 5 years is an impressive amount of lurking :) ). You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "hi" to everyone, and let people know what stuff you like to talk about.

I've kind of been troubled by the Feywild and other 4e changes to the planes myself. I like the Planescape cosmology and have wondered how to get the 4e stuff to fit into the Great Wheel cosmology. (The 3e product line also had some funky plane stuff, including bespoke cosmologies for Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and Eberron...and minor tweaks to the Great Wheel.)

I've kind of settled on a "Wonky Wheel" concept, where different sages on different worlds have their own theories about the Feywild. So I might be able to slot the 4e cosmology into the same universe as TSR campaign settings by saying that it is a Nentir Vale thing, or that sages on worlds other than Nentir Vale consider it to be a realm in another plane....or a demi-plane or somesuch.

You are not the first person to say good things about the Feywild, so I'll have to have a think about it. Maybe I'll start a topic in the Planescape forum, if there isn't already one.

EDIT: I made a Planescape topic: How does/could the Feywild fit into the Great Wheel?
Hey, thanks for the welcome, man! I was probably gonna go back to lurking, but I will try to become active in here while ditching facebook, which takes too much of my time without hardly giving anything back, a New God kind of thing, if you ask me lol Yeah, I love Planescape and the Great Wheel, the only thing I like about 4th ed cosmology is the Feywild, which I also think about fitting into the GW, so I'll probably post my thoughts on that on your other thread later. I'm also all over the "Wonky Wheel", a good name for that concept.

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