Alignment!

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BotWizo
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Re: Alignment!

Post by BotWizo » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:04 am

I wonder if the changes were to get players and DMs to play characters/monsters with more shades of gray rather than by the strict alignment system.

It makes players have to do some more investigation rather than just detect alignment, and allows for times when a good person to do evil.

These are other theories as to why they may have changed the alignment system.

We used the nine alignment system and I like it for nostalgia, but as our games evolved over time we migrated unofficially to no alignments or a 3 alignment system. Good, evil, nuetral, with the nine alignment system filling in rarely to give more specifics if needed, but alignments in our campaign were more hidden rather than "a colored halo" floating over everyones head.

Now with 4th introducing unaligned, our group likes that connotation better than nuetral, so now our campaign is currently running with the alignments of good / unaligned / evil.

As for monsters, depending on the campaign depends on the alignment of monsters. Our current campaign in going with the political correctness put in the monster alignments since 3e we now have any intelligent monster race is allowed the full range of alignments, so a red dragon may be good, since it is a member of an intelligent the race and species and members of that race can make intelligent choices. Only unintelligent monsters do not have a range of alignments, just one of the choices assigned to them that fits the monster.

just some more perspective to add to the discussion.
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Re: Alignment!

Post by Dragonhelm » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:19 am

BotWizo wrote:We used the nine alignment system and I like it for nostalgia, but as our games evolved over time we migrated unofficially to no alignments or a 3 alignment system. Good, evil, nuetral, with the nine alignment system filling in rarely to give more specifics if needed, but alignments in our campaign were more hidden rather than "a colored halo" floating over everyones head.
Any particular reason for the change?
Now with 4th introducing unaligned, our group likes that connotation better than nuetral, so now our campaign is currently running with the alignments of good / unaligned / evil.
I find Unaligned more appealing than neutrality. It's simple in concept, and you're not worrying about maintaining a balance (TN), following orders (LN), or being selfish (CN).
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Re: Alignment!

Post by BotWizo » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:26 pm

Dragonhelm wrote: Any particular reason for the change?

I think it was mainly because the way alignment functions with magic items and spells they mostly care about good or evil. We also sort of got tired of all the categories, so if you were good you were good, and if you were evil, you were evil.
Now some characters were more good or evil than others, but the game mechanics really only care about good or evil. The lawful or chaotic are just descriptors, but the real meat of the rules is for good or evil oppositions.
We also found some players would play their characters kind of stiff because of what they thought the alignment system boxed them in (hurt them when trying to integrate personalities), or parties time after time were chaotic good, so no variation.


no one big reason, and it really isn't that big of a deal to our group.
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Re: Alignment!

Post by Dragonhelm » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:15 pm

TVTropes.org has an article on character alignment that was interesting. It talks about the changes from the 9-alignment system to the new one. Here are some interesting tidbits.
Further, there was a reason for combining Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil, along with Neutral Good and some of Chaotic Good:

* Chaotic Good was always something of an odd alignment out; in play, unless you were very serious about Order Versus Chaos distinctions, it either became "Neutral Good but more suspicious of the law" or "Kindhearted/Heroic Chaotic Neutral".
* Chaotic Evil was always the "Kill, Crush, Burn" evil alignment, as opposed to "Whatever benefits me" of the other branches of Evil.
* And Lawful Good was similarly distinct from the other branches of Good. Short version: LG had specific prescriptions for "what is Good" built right into it, unlike the others, and was more of a balancing act.
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Re: Alignment!

Post by BotWizo » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:38 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:TVTropes.org has an article on character alignment that was interesting. It talks about the changes from the 9-alignment system to the new one. Here are some interesting tidbits.
Further, there was a reason for combining Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil, along with Neutral Good and some of Chaotic Good:

* Chaotic Good was always something of an odd alignment out; in play, unless you were very serious about Order Versus Chaos distinctions, it either became "Neutral Good but more suspicious of the law" or "Kindhearted/Heroic Chaotic Neutral".
* Chaotic Evil was always the "Kill, Crush, Burn" evil alignment, as opposed to "Whatever benefits me" of the other branches of Evil.
* And Lawful Good was similarly distinct from the other branches of Good. Short version: LG had specific prescriptions for "what is Good" built right into it, unlike the others, and was more of a balancing act.

Read that link, thanks for that, we found that a while ago and much of that discussion summarizes our discussions and is the reason why we removed the 9 alignment system, we knew that the original D&D only had lawful, chaotic and nuetral, but what they meant was good, evil, and unaligned we went with the 3 alignment system.
Also players in our group and our area we noticed when discussing this topic tended to do lawful/chaotic stupid as described, the 3 alignment system makes people play their characters as a little more realistic, and the opponents/villains are a little harder to figure out.
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Re: Alignment!

Post by Dragonhelm » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:12 am

There's a topic about alignment on EN World that got me to thinking about this thread again.

You know, it occurs to me that what I like most about the 9-alignment system is the symmetry. Yet as I look at things, I think the 4e alignment system is more practical.

Nice thing about 4e's alignment is that it is divorced from the rules, so you can use whatever alignment you want.
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Re: Alignment!

Post by agathokles » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:52 am

Not anymore. In Essentials, Paladins have alignment restrictions.

Anyway, the 4e system is awkward. If you need a more practical system, OD&D has a simpler and more symmetric one -- just lawful, neutral and chaotic.

G.

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Re: Alignment!

Post by snorri » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:21 pm

I'm thinking to use another variant of 5-alignements : Good, Evil, Chaos, Law and neutral.

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Re: Alignment!

Post by PsiSeveredHead » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:43 pm

TVTropes.org has an article on character alignment that was interesting. It talks about the changes from the 9-alignment system to the new one. Here are some interesting tidbits.
Could you post the link to that article?

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Re: Alignment!

Post by Dragonhelm » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:07 am

PsiSeveredHead wrote:
TVTropes.org has an article on character alignment that was interesting. It talks about the changes from the 9-alignment system to the new one. Here are some interesting tidbits.
Could you post the link to that article?
It's in my original post. Click on "character alignment".
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Re: Alignment!

Post by rabindranath72 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:51 am

snorri wrote:I'm thinking to use another variant of 5-alignements : Good, Evil, Chaos, Law and neutral.
That's what Warhammer 1e does. Law as an extreme of Good, and Chaos as an extreme of Evil.

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Re: Alignment!

Post by agathokles » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:38 am

I think snorri means five distinct alignments, with Law being independent from Good. The Warhammer version is what is used in 4e.

G.

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