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Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:55 am
by Big Mac
Is the Mahasarpa region to the south of Malatra the same thing as the Mahasarpa Campaign Setting that James Wyatt created as a Web Enhancement for 3e's Oriental Adventures?

Mahasarpa is south west of Malatra on this map:
Image

It seems a bit of a co-incidence for the same name to be used for two unrelated things.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:09 am
by Boneguard
IIRC no, they are quite a different beast. The 3rd Ed Web Enhencement is clearly Indian Subcontinent. Malatra and the Surrounding have more of an Tribal Filipino/Indonesian/Malaysian feel.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:34 am
by Dragonhelm
It's been a long while, but I agree that Mahasarpa is modeled after India. This was James Wyatt's campaign at one point, and to my knowledge, has no relation to Kara-Tur or the Forgotten Realms.

I believe it was also an attempt to show how Oriental Adventures could go beyond fantasy China and Japan.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:13 pm
by Big Mac
It seems strange that James Wyatt would reuse the name Mahasarpa and then reboot its culture.

I checked the map in the Web Enhancement and there are mountains to the top of that Mahasarpa. That makes it a fairly good fit, although I didn't see a coast to the south.

As well as being on that Kara-Tur map Mahasarpa is mentioned on Forgotten Realm's Portal: Geography page. But the link is a redlink.

Does anyone know of anything that gives information about Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa?

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:39 pm
by night_druid
FR's "India" region is fairly close by. Its down in the SE corner of faerun, with Durpar & Var the Golden. Mahasarpa is on the other side of the land bridge to Al-Qadim. I'm not sure if anything has ever been written about Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa. I suppose if you wanted, you could use Wyatt's one for it.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:54 pm
by Boneguard
Interesting Mahasarpa and Malatra and Jampu Dweepam are not in my Kara-Tur boxset...but I know Malatra was worked in through the RPGA.

So nothing official in 2nd ed on Mahasarpa.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:50 pm
by Big Mac
Boneguard wrote:Interesting Mahasarpa and Malatra and Jampu Dweepam are not in my Kara-Tur boxset...but I know Malatra was worked in through the RPGA.

So nothing official in 2nd ed on Mahasarpa.
I know that Malatra already existed before the RPGA got to it. Teramis designed Malatra and the RPGA created a hidden area inside her area. There must be some sort of product that Teramis worked on that mentions Malatra.

But I see this map, that Forgotten Realms Wiki is using, was created by Markustay. Markustay makes some very cool fanon maps that look almost identical to the TSR/WotC maps.

I wonder if someone grabbed one of his fanon maps, without his permission and screwed up FR Wiki. FR Wiki is normally very good at peer review. I can't see them having fanon in multiple places without another editor noticing it and flagging it up. :?

If Markustay inserted Malatra (and maybe Jampu Dweepam) into Malatra, this thread would be a wild goose chase. (Although if he did do that - and I've got no idea at this point, I'd still want to know how he thinks James Wyatt's setting could work in Kara-Tur.)

I think I need to do a bit of detective work.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:09 pm
by Boneguard
Malatra is inserted where the RPGA placed it, so that bit is Canon.

But it look like Mahasarpa in 2nd edition is Fanon.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:10 pm
by Big Mac
I think this post, in a thread called Kara-Tur: Re-dux is by Markustay under a slightly different user name. Check inside the "Volume II: Kara-Tur Campaign Setting" spoiler tag.

That was written back in 2007. It isn't clear that this is fanon, but it also isn't clear that it is canon. But Markustay himself should know. I'll try sending him a PM to see if he can give me a bit of advice. :)

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:24 pm
by Big Mac
Boneguard wrote:Malatra is inserted where the RPGA placed it, so that bit is Canon.

But it look like Mahasarpa in 2nd edition is Fanon.
Malatra was definately in Kara-Tur before the RPGA used it. Teramis told me in this post that she created Malatra, I asked her if she knew what the RPGA had done with it, but she said she didn't have the time to follow the RPGA.

I don't know if any of the adventures for Kara-Tur added any areas to the south of Malatra. Maybe I should check the Living Jungle files to see if they appear on any of their maps.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:34 pm
by Boneguard
I got the whole RPGA stuff printed off for Malatra. It's basically a way to have Hengeyokai, Human, Moldman, Aracokra and a few other species involved. It's very low tech having a lifestyle at a tribal level. I think there's 1 Oriental Adventure that goes south of Tu'Lung (as well as one or two Dungeon Magazine Oriental adventures. BUt for the most part. If it's South ofTu Lu it's been ignored.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:38 pm
by ripvanwormer
Here's the map of the area from Test of the Samurai:
Image

Here's the map of the area from Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms:
Image

Here's the map of the area from The Forgotten Realms Atlas by Karen Wynn Fonstad:
Image

Here's the map of the central Malatran plateau from the Living Jungle Campaign book:
Image

Here's the Mahasarpa map from James Wyatt's The Mahasarpa Campaign:
Image

Here's Markustay's Malatra map, where you can see the modifications he made and the things he added working Malatra and Mahasarpa into the southern Kara-Tur region. As you can see, the Mahasarpa map doesn't exactly match, and none of the previous maps have Mahasarpa labeled on them. Markustay himself makes no claim that his map his canon, writing on his DeviantArt page that it was "mostly based on the the RPGA 'Living Jungle' Campaign maps, with a few other sources and homebrew details thrown in." The licensing information for this image warns "Please note that although they are mostly accurate, some locations appearing on Markus Taylor's maps and some arrangements of geography are non-canonical."

I see no indication that Mahasarpa is an official part of the Forgotten Realms or Kara-Tur; I think Markustay just threw it in there because it roughly fit into the terrain and the region was otherwise unnamed. James Wyatt wrote that Mahasarpa was inspired by India and Hindu Southeast Asia, including Cambodia.

The name "Malatra" appears in Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms to describe the entire southern jungle region, but neither the name "Mahasarpa" nor any of the place names from the Mahasarpa campaign are found there. The RPGA Living Jungle campaign has almost nothing to do with the Malatra described in the Kara-Tur boxed set. It's not that they contradict each other so much as the fact that the RPGA campaign details the central plateau and the Kara-Tur boxed set details the eastern coast.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:38 pm
by Markustay
Ack!
And this is why I got a 'warning' at last year's Gencon (an unofficial one, but an important one). The fact that my maps look so authentic is causing them problems. :oops:

That map was taken from the K-T setting box, and then MODIFIED BY ME to include Malatra (canon, via the Living Jungle material), Larang (also canon, via the 2e Ronin Challenge AP and K-T update). Petan is canon, and also from Ronin Challenge, but never ever detailed (although the map that came with that product showed quite a bit of detail). The last three regions I added are all directly from the K-T box. I came up with the name 'Jambu Dweepam' for the unknown, India-like southern region (and had some now-lost lore to go with that - it was a bunch of 'warring states' just as the canon map indicates, but has since been united under the banner of a little girl - a talented psionic Kumari - but thats all Home-brew).

If I were to do it all over again, I would probably place Malatra on the eastern coast this time (Yes, making it even more of a derivation, but whatever). In my latest homebrew/hodgepodge, my 'Indianesque' culture is now on the west coast of the Maltran sub-continent, and based loosely on two other settings (since we never got any real India lore for FR). Its a better fit that way, because the Ruined Kingdoms of Zakhara (Al-Qadim) have a bit of that vibe going on, and they are right across the water from where I placed Mahasarpa (with Tempat Larang - from Ronin Challenge, right between them, which makes perfect sense).

EDIT:
In the (MT) map that Rip Van Wormer was nice enough to link, you can see it is unfinished, and there are other things I later dropped - a series of homebrew lakes that bordered Malatra, Petan, Tu-Lung and Shou Lung (I had an idea for a campaign there), and also that weird Sri-Lanka clone at the bottom. Mahasarpa probably would have stayed in the finished version (Had I had the opportunity to finish it). Note that the Malatran Plateau (from Living Jungle) is to scale - its 'canon' placement in the FRIA is incorrect - it is too far north (and near civilization), and also way too small. The makers of that product were unaware that 'Malatra' described the entire southern portion of the continent, not just that corner of it (where they placed it). All they had to go by was the term 'Malatra' along the southern edge of the canon (print) maps. When I dropped into that empty area of jungle, it worked out nicely with the canon mountain ranges, so I think its a damn good fit (and makes the most sense, given the canon map from LJ).

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:54 am
by Big Mac
Thanks for helping with that Rip! :D
Markustay wrote:Ack!
And this is why I got a 'warning' at last year's Gencon (an unofficial one, but an important one). The fact that my maps look so authentic is causing them problems. :oops:
You know what. I don't think you are doing anything wrong. If I wanted to play with a fanon version of Forgotten Realms, I can't think of a better way to set the scene for a RPG group than having a map that looks as good as the originals.

If there is anyone to blame here, I would say it is Forgotten Realms Wiki that has made the mistake. FR Wiki aims to be a well researched source on Forgotten Realms canon. They usually put book and page citations on the factoids contained in their articles, so that people can check back to the original.

I've spoken to you before about your maps and know that not all of them are canon. The people at Forgotten Realms Wiki should know that sort of thing. They should not be using your maps without your express permission (as they are licensing their content to third parties) and should be checking with you or any other fan artists to make sure that anything they use is appropriate. I've got an account at Forgotten Realms Wiki. If I get a chance I'll flag up that image for deletion and see if I can find out who uploaded it, to put let them know what the issue is.
Markustay wrote:That map was taken from the K-T setting box, and then MODIFIED BY ME to include Malatra (canon, via the Living Jungle material), Larang (also canon, via the 2e Ronin Challenge AP and K-T update). Petan is canon, and also from Ronin Challenge, but never ever detailed (although the map that came with that product showed quite a bit of detail). The last three regions I added are all directly from the K-T box. I came up with the name 'Jambu Dweepam' for the unknown, India-like southern region (and had some now-lost lore to go with that - it was a bunch of 'warring states' just as the canon map indicates, but has since been united under the banner of a little girl - a talented psionic Kumari - but thats all Home-brew).
Ack. More cool stuff lost to that fire you had. At least we didn't loose you too!

I'm pretty sure that Malatra was already canon in Kara-Tur. I've spoken to Teramis (one of the Kara-Tur designers) about Malatra, and she mentioned Malatra didn't know what the RPGA did with it. I think it is just the gigantic lost world area in the middle that was added.

Did the canon place Larang and Petan in those places? Or were they left hanging?
Markustay wrote:If I were to do it all over again, I would probably place Malatra on the eastern coast this time (Yes, making it even more of a derivation, but whatever). In my latest homebrew/hodgepodge, my 'Indianesque' culture is now on the west coast of the Maltran sub-continent, and based loosely on two other settings (since we never got any real India lore for FR). Its a better fit that way, because the Ruined Kingdoms of Zakhara (Al-Qadim) have a bit of that vibe going on, and they are right across the water from where I placed Mahasarpa (with Tempat Larang - from Ronin Challenge, right between them, which makes perfect sense).

EDIT:
In the (MT) map that Rip Van Wormer was nice enough to link, you can see it is unfinished, and there are other things I later dropped - a series of homebrew lakes that bordered Malatra, Petan, Tu-Lung and Shou Lung (I had an idea for a campaign there), and also that weird Sri-Lanka clone at the bottom. Mahasarpa probably would have stayed in the finished version (Had I had the opportunity to finish it). Note that the Malatran Plateau (from Living Jungle) is to scale - its 'canon' placement in the FRIA is incorrect - it is too far north (and near civilization), and also way too small. The makers of that product were unaware that 'Malatra' described the entire southern portion of the continent, not just that corner of it (where they placed it). All they had to go by was the term 'Malatra' along the southern edge of the canon (print) maps. When I dropped into that empty area of jungle, it worked out nicely with the canon mountain ranges, so I think its a damn good fit (and makes the most sense, given the canon map from LJ).
If you get back to these projects, I'd love for you to drop a thread here to explain how they work. I think they could be things that other gamers raid from. :)

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:59 pm
by Havard
Please help me clear this up. There is in fact a region called Mahasarpa that is part of the Forgotten Realms, correct?

-Havard

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:40 pm
by ripvanwormer
Havard wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:59 pm
Please help me clear this up. There is in fact a region called Mahasarpa that is part of the Forgotten Realms, correct?
No.

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:18 pm
by Havard
ripvanwormer wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:40 pm
Havard wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:59 pm
Please help me clear this up. There is in fact a region called Mahasarpa that is part of the Forgotten Realms, correct?
No.
Okay thanks. I saw it on some maps at the FR wiki, but I guess they must have been fan made maps as well then :)

-Havard

Re: Is Kara-Tur's Mahasarpa the same as James Wyatt's one?

Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:24 pm
by ripvanwormer
Havard wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:18 pm
Okay thanks. I saw it on some maps at the FR wiki, but I guess they must have been fan made maps as well then :)
Yes, a lot of the maps on the FR wiki are by Markustay.