I have some questions on Maztican magic...

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I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby thorr-kan » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:34 am

I'm new to Maztica, so bear with me.

I was poking through my PDFs looking for NWPs when I got sidetracked reading up on Maztican magic. I've seen pluma and hishna spells as part of the Priest's Spell Compendiums, so I always assumed they were a variant priest class. Now I see they're kind of a separate category, but with a wide availability across three class groups. This is some interesting stuff. Not as different from base as the sha'ir from my beloved AQ, but very interesting.

Eagle and Jaguar Knights are fighter kits. They get limited access to pluma/hishna respectively, in addition to the usual fighter stuff. Seems straight forward; enlighten me if I'm missing anything.

Clerics can have access to pluma/hishna based on their deity. It's treated like a sphere, but it's not a divine sphere. So...is it treated as a new sphere for those clerics? That's how I read it, but I'll never actually see it in play so I'm curious.

Finally, plumaweaver and hishnashapers are fascinating. Divine spellcasting rogues? Sign me up! But are they a kit or a class? They're specifically called a kit, but they don't specify *which* class they are kits for. The description calls out "rogue" THAC0, XP, and Saving Throws. Neither kit lists changes to thieving ability scores (a staple of many thief kits), but the hishnashaper specifically calls out the kit getting a thief's backstab. So are these guys kit or two new rogue subclasses?

Tangentially, I really like the fetishist thief kit from FMA3 City of Gold. A thief with access to the animal friendship spell? If you can't make that character work, I don't know what other rogue will work for you.

(ETA: Spelling. Don't sleep-post folks!)
Last edited by thorr-kan on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby Big Mac » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:48 pm

Those are great questions.

I was always a little bit troubled by Maztica, because it seemed like the options were a bit depowered compared to the options that Faerûn (and therefore invading Amnians) would get.

Pluma and hishna magic both seem really interesting. I didn't quite get the concept of opposition when I read the Eagle Knight and Jaguar Knights kits, but the priest stuff makes it a bit clear that feather magic and talon magic are the work of opposing deities.

Qotal (the pluma deity) and Zaltec (the hishna deity) are not the only Maztican deities, but their two forms of magic seem to be dominant. Qotal abandoned Maztica for a while and I think that caused an imbalance. (So I wonder how that is supposed to be redressed after Qotal's return.)

I never really figured the plumaweavers and hishnashapers as spellcastig rogues, but that makes a lot of sense. I guess you are right that it needs more clarification, as I didn't spot that. Perhaps there was some errata that clarified things.
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Re: I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby Boneguard » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:06 pm

thorr-kan wrote:Finally, plumaweaver and hishnashapers are fascinating. Spellcasting rogues? Sign me up! But are they a kit or a class? They're specifically called a kit, but they don't specify *which* class they are kits for. The description calls out "rogue" THAC0, XP, and Saving Throws. Neither kit lists changes to thieving ability scores (a staple of many thief kits), but the hishnashaper specifically calls out the kit getting a thief's backstab. So are these guys kit or two new rogue subclasses?


I always had the same question than you on that one and at the end I decided to basically treat them as a new subclass (with 2 specialization). It makes a hell of a lot more sense then treating it as a kit for either Thief or Bard.
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Re: I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby thorr-kan » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:55 pm

Boneguard wrote:
thorr-kan wrote:Finally, plumaweaver and hishnashapers are fascinating. Spellcasting rogues? Sign me up! But are they a kit or a class? They're specifically called a kit, but they don't specify *which* class they are kits for. The description calls out "rogue" THAC0, XP, and Saving Throws. Neither kit lists changes to thieving ability scores (a staple of many thief kits), but the hishnashaper specifically calls out the kit getting a thief's backstab. So are these guys kit or two new rogue subclasses?


I always had the same question than you on that one and at the end I decided to basically treat them as a new subclass (with 2 specialization). It makes a hell of a lot more sense then treating it as a kit for either Thief or Bard.

My gut reaction is to treat them as separate subclasses. There's enough flavor difference and mechanical difference to justify it, in my opinion. But that's just semantics, really. They really do read like separate classes, don't they?

The taltos subclass from Dragon Magazine gives a precedent for a divine rogue spellcaster.

The more I think on the Fetishist, the more I like it. It's Aladdin from the Disney movie. You've got Abu, a raptor of some type, a vicious attack dog, and hey, is that a horse?! Animal Friendship could be so much fun!
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Re: I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby Boneguard » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:21 pm

thorr-kan wrote:
Boneguard wrote:
thorr-kan wrote:Finally, plumaweaver and hishnashapers are fascinating. Spellcasting rogues? Sign me up! But are they a kit or a class? They're specifically called a kit, but they don't specify *which* class they are kits for. The description calls out "rogue" THAC0, XP, and Saving Throws. Neither kit lists changes to thieving ability scores (a staple of many thief kits), but the hishnashaper specifically calls out the kit getting a thief's backstab. So are these guys kit or two new rogue subclasses?


I always had the same question than you on that one and at the end I decided to basically treat them as a new subclass (with 2 specialization). It makes a hell of a lot more sense then treating it as a kit for either Thief or Bard.

My gut reaction is to treat them as separate subclasses. There's enough flavor difference and mechanical difference to justify it, in my opinion. But that's just semantics, really. They really do read like separate classes, don't they?


Yes they do. Unlike the Knights who does read like a kit, these 2 reads like a complete different subclasses.
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Re: I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby thorr-kan » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:49 pm

I appreciate everybody's input. I'm going to ask around a few other places, though I doubt the consensus will be much different.
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Re: I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby redking » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:54 am

Dragon magazine #315 just adds to the confusion. That issue introduces the Jaguar Knight and Eagle Knight, martial classes that use Hishna and Pluma magic respectively. They each get a list of spells from which they can choose a spell-like ability, the number of which increase as they gain levels. So we gain no clarity from Dragon Magazine, either.
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Re: I have some questions on Maztican magic...

Postby thorr-kan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:50 am

redking wrote:Dragon magazine #315 just adds to the confusion. That issue introduces the Jaguar Knight and Eagle Knight, martial classes that use Hishna and Pluma magic respectively. They each get a list of spells from which they can choose a spell-like ability, the number of which increase as they gain levels. So we gain no clarity from Dragon Magazine, either.

Actually that update to 3.5 is kinda valid. The kits in 2ED got some hishna and pluma spells as well.
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