Kalandurren

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Kalandurren

Postby Havard » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:50 am

4E MM3 p 15 talks about Kalandurren, an "Astral Dominon", home to the God Amoth before the dominion was attacked by Orcus, Demogorgon and Rimmon(?). Is this a location that existed before the 4th Edition? What is known about it from earlier editions?

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Re: Kalandurren

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:19 am

It's new to 4th edition. The only thing carried over from earlier editions is Citadel Exhalus, a Doomguard fortress that was in the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum in 2e.

I had thought that Kalandurren was sort of a ruined version of Arcadia, but even that's not quite right: instead of a single Orb of Day and Night on top of a mountain, Kalandurren has a separate sun and moon on separate mountains. So it's completely new to the 4th edition cosmology.

Amoth and the demon prince Rimmon are new to 4e too.
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby Havard » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:47 am

ripvanwormer wrote:It's new to 4th edition. The only thing carried over from earlier editions is Citadel Exhalus, a Doomguard fortress that was in the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum in 2e.

I had thought that Kalandurren was sort of a ruined version of Arcadia, but even that's not quite right: instead of a single Orb of Day and Night on top of a mountain, Kalandurren has a separate sun and moon on separate mountains. So it's completely new to the 4th edition cosmology.

Amoth and the demon prince Rimmon are new to 4e too.


Interesting!

If one were to convert this to the traditional Planescape Setting, would you still locate Kalandurren on the Astral Plane or would you place it on an Outer Plane instead?

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Re: Kalandurren

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:41 am

4e astral dominions are roughly equivalent to outer planes, or outer planar realms. In the Great Wheel cosmology, I'd make Kalendurren an outer planar realm, probably a ruined section of Arcadia unless I thought it was so tainted with evil that it shifted to Acheron.
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby Big Mac » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:02 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:4e astral dominions are roughly equivalent to outer planes, or outer planar realms. In the Great Wheel cosmology, I'd make Kalendurren an outer planar realm, probably a ruined section of Arcadia unless I thought it was so tainted with evil that it shifted to Acheron.


That's an interesting choice.

I've still not sorted out how to convert between the Points of Light cosmology and the Great Wheel in my mind. Is there any logic to moving Kalandurren from the Astral Sea to Arcadia/Archeron? Or is this all based on the "purpose" of the location in the book and what Outer Plane "feels" most similar?
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:21 pm

Arcadia and Acheron are in the Astral Sea, essentially. They're accessible from the Astral Plane in the same way that Baator, Celestia, Pandemonium and other Astral dominions are. So I don't see it as a change.
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby Zeromaru X » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:09 pm

Chernogar (Bane and Gruumsh 's domain) is like Acheron in the Great Wheel system, as those planes are equivalent in purpose and alignments. While Hestavar (Pelor, Ioun and Erathis' dominion) is like Arcadia in the same way. Kalandurren is a destroyed, not functional place in 4e mythology, but I guess you can put it in between those two planes, it such a thing is possible in the Great Wheel.
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby lesh » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:51 am

Rimmon is another name for Ramman, it's possible that Amoth is Assuran (Hoar from Toril)
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:37 pm

lesh wrote:Rimmon is another name for Ramman


I'm not aware of a D&D demon called Ramman, but Rimmon was the name of an archdevil described in Ed Greenwood's article "The Nine Hells Part II" in Dragon #76. He was described there as a gelugon with a handsome human head. 4th edition's demon lord Rimmon seems to be an entirely different character, though. (Edit: as a demon, he also seems different from the Babylonian thunder god)

Green Ronin's The Book of Fiends included a demon lord called Raum, the Harbinger of the Apocalypse.

, it's possible that Amoth is Assuran (Hoar from Toril)


I suggest connecting him to Amon, the Void Before the Altar (described as a vestige in 3rd edition's Tome of Magic), who is just a generic version of Amaunator from Toril.
Last edited by ripvanwormer on Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby Zeromaru X » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:47 pm

Amoth was a god of justice. In fact, it was the god of justice before Bahamut took the mantle in the Dawn War mythology. Is this Amon related to justice?
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:51 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:Amoth was a god of justice. In fact, it was the god of justice before Bahamut took the mantle in the Dawn War mythology. Is this Amon related to justice?


Tome of Magic says he was the god of light and justice, yes (until he died).
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Re: Kalandurren

Postby Zeromaru X » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:37 pm

Interesting. Seeing his role in the Dawn War, I wonder why they never created a vestige of him in 4e (or imported Amon from 3e).
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