[4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

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[4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Idabrius » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:53 pm

In order for a Planescape setting to function properly within the confines of 4th Edition, it is necessary to get some maturation to the fairly primitive and undefined nature of the 4e planar conflicts. We are given a war between Primordials, who are creatures of the Elemental Planes, and the Gods (clearly residing in the Astral). This seems like it is a way to play into the body vs. mind mentality that is prevalent in most Aristotelian and Platonically derived systems and even more so in anything deriving from Augustine.

The first question really, is do we keep the material vs. the belief notion that is implicit in this clash? I for one would like to ditch it. The Planes are not a place where objective reality (material) should dominate the subjective (belief) but rather the other way around. Thus, simply because the Primordials are made of the "base stuff" of matter they should not be associated with a physical (rather than mental) alignment. This dualism is sophomoric and does not suit Planescape at all.

Thus, I would suggest that the first big step in maturing the mythos of the new setting is to come up with comprehensive philosophical reasons for the conflict between the Primordials and the Gods. The possibility remains open that the PHILOSOPHICAL reasons are based in a debate of material vs. non-material (the physical/mental duality) while the actual conflict is really more of a battlefield (literally) of ideas.

Thoughts?
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:23 pm

They have put the gods onto the Astral Plane?

That is weird. In former editions of Planescape gods mostly lived in the Outer Planes. The only gods on the Astral Planes were dead gods. I belive that when a god died, their body fell into the Astral Plane and decayed slowly over a long period. (I think that you could bring a god back from the dead within that sort of timescale.)

Astral Encounters: Crosswinds Keep and Environs, by By Darrin Drader shows a castle built on the head of a dead god.

If Wizards of the Coast are going to go completely against their own canon, I'm not sure how to work out how the planes are supposed to work in 4th edition. :? I think you may need to toss out all previous D&D work and just wait to see what the new rules are.
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Idabrius » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:30 pm

4e has no Outer Planes anymore; they are folded into the transitive Astral, each being reachable from the Astral Sea as far as I can comprehend. They're really trying to simplify the metasetting, which is too bad. While it helps to attract outsiders who aren't interested in the minutia of, say, Mechanus and how its related to law and all that, it does NOT help in building a mature and elegant metasetting to play in.
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Ashtagon » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:49 pm

As i understand it, the 4e gods don't live in the astral; they live in their own personal demi-planes (some quite big) which are accessible only through the astral. I think the 3e outer planes can be re-imagined as planes floating in the astral, but with no particular great wheel forced upon them.
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Idabrius » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:11 pm

This fella here, at planewalker has done it. Working from his notes, I think I'm going to return to this project. The planes are very much in tact. What, then do we really have to deal with that's different?

Not a whole lot. For one thing, since there was no possible way to physically SEE the Astral plane, say, from an Outer Plane (besides a conduit) all that's really changed as far as Planescape is concerned is the PERCEPTION of where and how the Planes fit together... and maybe the Outlands were written off, but they can easily be reinserted as per the article I just linked!

Huzzah! The race is on!
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Idabrius » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:18 pm

So my first real conundrum: is the Multiverse suffering from something akin to a multiversal reboot? (eg, people have vague memories of before?) Or, is it rather an advancement of the original D&D timeline in which war erupts between the Elemental Princes &/or Titans and the Gods?
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by JoeNotCharles » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:32 am

Idabrius wrote:So my first real conundrum: is the Multiverse suffering from something akin to a multiversal reboot? (eg, people have vague memories of before?) Or, is it rather an advancement of the original D&D timeline in which war erupts between the Elemental Princes &/or Titans and the Gods?
Well, that's complicated. People remember that Heironymus used to exist, that he died saving everyone from some horrible fate, but not what that fate was or the exact details of the event (except that it somehow involved the skies in all the planes turning the colour of blood). They also see Bahamut as his successor, but don't remember anything about any of the other gods who died.

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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Otogi » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:51 pm

Idabrius wrote:This fella here, at planewalker has done it. Working from his notes, I think I'm going to return to this project. The planes are very much in tact. What, then do we really have to deal with that's different?

Not a whole lot. For one thing, since there was no possible way to physically SEE the Astral plane, say, from an Outer Plane (besides a conduit) all that's really changed as far as Planescape is concerned is the PERCEPTION of where and how the Planes fit together... and maybe the Outlands were written off, but they can easily be reinserted as per the article I just linked!

Huzzah! The race is on!
I'm glad I could help :D Still, if you don't mind, I'd like to help you out with this Project of Paradigm.

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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Idabrius » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:02 am

I would LOVE all the help I can get.
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Otogi » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:44 am

Than help you have

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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Big Mac » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:53 pm

Not bad. I'd be sticking with the 3rd edition cosmology, but 4e players deserve to be able to play Planescape games and if this logic allows that to happen, then I say go with it.

Have you considered trying to contact Otogi? I'm sure that Planewalker is going to (eventually) want to get a PS4e conversion up and running. I'd say you two have a common interest.
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Zeromaru X » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:05 pm

Kinda necroposting, but...

These post are from before 4e mythos had matured and evolved. I mean, by the end of 4e they had included the Phrenic Planes as the third set of planes to the World Axis, that are more conceptual that even the Astral Sea.

Also, they included stuff like the modrons and the loths involvement in the Blood War, and the obyriths, that I surmise are important to Planescape as well.

I don't know much about Planescape, but I feel that the matured World Axis from 4e's final products is more compatible with Planescape that the one from 4e initial products.

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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Zeromaru X » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:48 pm

Idabrius wrote:
Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:53 pm

The first question really, is do we keep the material vs. the belief notion that is implicit in this clash? I for one would like to ditch it. The Planes are not a place where objective reality (material) should dominate the subjective (belief) but rather the other way around. Thus, simply because the Primordials are made of the "base stuff" of matter they should not be associated with a physical (rather than mental) alignment. This dualism is sophomoric and does not suit Planescape at all.

Thus, I would suggest that the first big step in maturing the mythos of the new setting is to come up with comprehensive philosophical reasons for the conflict between the Primordials and the Gods. The possibility remains open that the PHILOSOPHICAL reasons are based in a debate of material vs. non-material (the physical/mental duality) while the actual conflict is really more of a battlefield (literally) of ideas.

Thoughts?
The planar conflict in 4e is more philosophical that it seems. Rather that physical matter, the Elemental Chaos represents what its name implies, "Chaos", while the Abyss represented Chaotic Evil, and the Astral Sea represented, more or less, Order (or Law). So, the initial conflict in 4e is metaphorical thought less Gygaxian than the Planescape conflict.

By the end of 4e, however, they also mentioned the other forces of the conflict (Neutrality, Good and Evil) as well. And changed stuff. For instance, the Accordant Expanse is the place that represents Order (Law) instead of the Astral Sea. And there are a lot of Anomalous Planes, such as the Plane of Dreams. So, the Outlands can still exist, out there.

I guess Planescape can be used in 4e even without a Great Wheel. We just need to find the places that represent the other alignements.
Last edited by Zeromaru X on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:51 pm

What products were these additional planes mentioned in?
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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Zeromaru X » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:32 pm

The Anomalous Planes are mentioned in passing in the MotP. The Phrenic Planes are mentioned in Psionic Power, and the Accordant Expanse is mentioned in the Ecology of the Modrons article (Dragon 414)

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Re: [4e Planescape]: Maturing the Mythos

Post by Tim Baker » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:43 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:32 pm
The Anomalous Planes are mentioned in passing in the MotP. The Phrenic Planes are mentioned in Psionic Power, and the Accordant Expanse is mentioned in the Ecology of the Modrons article (Dragon 414)
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