How Big is Mystara/Hollow World?

[Gawain_VIII]

There is a discussion of some importance in Thorf's cartogrophy projects. This thread discusses the issue. We have to make a decision. Do we follow the old TSR mind-set that "the most recent product is the most correct" or do we revert to Earth-size. If we revert, how do we solve the HW problem? Double the HW surface area or double the crust?

All things to think about. As of right now, my "master document" currently reads the smaller dimensions. As most of you know, I've always preferred Earth-size. What are your preferences?

Roger

[Ashtagon]

In terms of converting the setting to 3rd edition, I am honestly not sure why this even matters. What difference could it make to any of the rules conversions?

[Thorf]

The poll is interesting regardless of what forum it's in.

I vote for Earth-size (as long as it ends up fitting nicely with the hex maps) and increased crust thickness. Increased area in the Hollow World would involve rescaling and possibly redrawing of existing hex maps, which goes against one of my guiding principles.

[Dave L]

I vote for Earth-size (as long as it ends up fitting nicely with the hex maps) and increased crust thickness. Increased area in the Hollow World would involve rescaling and possibly redrawing of existing hex maps, which goes against one of my guiding principles.

Agreed - let's not muck up what we already have.

There is plenty of scope for new areas by developing the "Sea Kingdoms" scenario, without having to change the existing HW maps.

[Havard]

Thorf and Dave have the right idea I think

Havard

[cab]

I vote for Earth-size (as long as it ends up fitting nicely with the hex maps) and increased crust thickness. Increased area in the Hollow World would involve rescaling and possibly redrawing of existing hex maps, which goes against one of my guiding principles.

Agreed - let's not muck up what we already have.

There is plenty of scope for new areas by developing the "Sea Kingdoms" scenario, without having to change the existing HW maps.

So... How far would that make it from, say, Zyxl to the Arm of the Immortals?

[Thorf]

So... How far would that make it from, say, Zyxl to the Arm of the Immortals?

I haven't done any calculations but I'm thinking it should be something like the Pacific Ocean today. Which makes sense if you think about the map and how it has evolved into our present day globe - there should be a big ocean between the Arm (the Baja California Peninsula?) and Zyxl (Japan??), shouldn't there?

[Havard]

So... How far would that make it from, say, Zyxl to the Arm of the Immortals?

I haven't done any calculations but I'm thinking it should be something like the Pacific Ocean today. Which makes sense if you think about the map and how it has evolved into our present day globe - there should be a big ocean between the Arm (the Baja California Peninsula?) and Zyxl (Japan??), shouldn't there?

Hmmm...hard to say. I thought there was some contact between the Tangor and the Arm of Immortals, at least historically?

Havard

[cab]

I haven't done any calculations but I'm thinking it should be something like the Pacific Ocean today. Which makes sense if you think about the map and how it has evolved into our present day globe - there should be a big ocean between the Arm (the Baja California Peninsula?) and Zyxl (Japan??), shouldn't there?

If its an early form of the Pacific ocean then it should be considerably bigger than the Pacific is now. Truly enormous.

[cab]

Hmmm...hard to say. I thought there was some contact between the Tangor and the Arm of Immortals, at least historically?

Havard

If thats regular contact then you either need to make that ocean smaller (hence the globe smaller) or you need to make the landmasses bigger. Or you need to just accept that people are travelling quite staggering distances (which should really be a very rare occurrence).

[Thorf]

Hmmm...hard to say. I thought there was some contact between the Tangor and the Arm of Immortals, at least historically?

Havard

If thats regular contact then you either need to make that ocean smaller (hence the globe smaller) or you need to make the landmasses bigger. Or you need to just accept that people are travelling quite staggering distances (which should really be a very rare occurrence).

I'd vote for altering the history over altering the maps. It should be much easier to find a good solution for contact across a vast ocean than it would be to redraw the whole world. (The Rainbow Bridge comes to mind as a good example of how this can work.)

[night_druid]

If thats regular contact then you either need to make that ocean smaller (hence the globe smaller) or you need to make the landmasses bigger. Or you need to just accept that people are travelling quite staggering distances (which should really be a very rare occurrence).

With teleport, flying ships, magic gates, the means to magically replenish stores at will, and the like, staggering distances aren't quite so...staggering.

[cab]

If thats regular contact then you either need to make that ocean smaller (hence the globe smaller) or you need to make the landmasses bigger. Or you need to just accept that people are travelling quite staggering distances (which should really be a very rare occurrence).

With teleport, flying ships, magic gates, the means to magically replenish stores at will, and the like, staggering distances aren't quite so...staggering.

True enough, but such things are rare except in those lands that have exceptional magical resources. Possible, of course, but even Alphatia doesn't ship most of its trade by air.

[Gawain_VIII]

If thats regular contact then you either need to make that ocean smaller (hence the globe smaller) or you need to make the landmasses bigger. Or you need to just accept that people are travelling quite staggering distances (which should really be a very rare occurrence).

With teleport, flying ships, magic gates, the means to magically replenish stores at will, and the like, staggering distances aren't quite so...staggering.

True enough, but such things are rare except in those lands that have exceptional magical resources. Possible, of course, but even Alphatia doesn't ship most of its trade by air.

Where is the reference? I seem to recall a mention in VotPA of Zyxl warships off the coast of the Arm, but that wasn't but a few years ago. Sure, it would be difficult journey, but consider the technology of the setting is supposed to (mostly) be reminiscent of 15th C Europe, it wouldn't be impossible. In fact I'd be suprised if there wasn't any Skothar-to-Brun contact, especially since in our own real-world Magellan circumnavigated the clobe in the early 16th C. The 15th C. was the height of sea exploration, marking the apex of the "Age of Exploration" which began at the end of the 13th C. with Marco Polo and continued to the 17th C with the colonization of the Americas. Personally, I see Mystara under a similar light. Using the small-Earth model, Thyatis should have been colonizing Zyxl for at least the past 50 years... and they're struggling to reach between Davania and Norwold?

Just a thought,
Roger

[cab]

The problem for colonists is not that they can't travel very far, its more that it seems like most of the surface of Mystara is already crawling with civilised races that do not wish to see more colonists. Thyatis or Alphatia can easily put together vessels of exploration, but there is less interest in doing so if wherever you explore to is only accessible through waters/airspace that is already well occupies. There is no Mystaran 'new world' ripe for exploration.

[Thorf]

If thats regular contact then you either need to make that ocean smaller (hence the globe smaller) or you need to make the landmasses bigger. Or you need to just accept that people are travelling quite staggering distances (which should really be a very rare occurrence).

With teleport, flying ships, magic gates, the means to magically replenish stores at will, and the like, staggering distances aren't quite so...staggering.

True enough, but such things are rare except in those lands that have exceptional magical resources. Possible, of course, but even Alphatia doesn't ship most of its trade by air.

Yes. But the whole area (the vast ocean, that is) is open for development anyway, so there's nothing to stop us from adding things to explain these problems. It could be magic gates at certain points in the ocean, for example - and we might consider making them a feature of the vast ocean in general, with gates scattered at various points throughout the setting. That would make the whole thing more accessible - and thus playable.

Roger, I agree with you about contact being very likely. Aside from anything else, the extent of the Alphatian Empire alone proves that there is contact between Brun and Skothar - even if they are pretty far apart. There are probably quite well-established nations in Skothar, because otherwise the Known World nations might well already be setting off to plunder whatever there is there to take...

[Gawain_VIII]

Yes. But the whole area (the vast ocean, that is) is open for development anyway, so there's nothing to stop us from adding things to explain these problems. It could be magic gates at certain points in the ocean, for example - and we might consider making them a feature of the vast ocean in general, with gates scattered at various points throughout the setting. That would make the whole thing more accessible - and thus playable.

Or, I think it would be more likely that the "Sea Kingdoms" are dominions ON the sea, rather than IN the sea. Which would leave places for stop-overs and port calls--making the journey quite a bit easier.

Although I have not implimented it (because of lack of printed material) I have pretty much decided that the "Sea Kingdoms" consists of the Council of Wyrms archipelago. I think that's just the right size to fill the vast ocean without too much land space.

Roger

[Gawain_VIII]

In terms of converting the setting to 3rd edition, I am honestly not sure why this even matters. What difference could it make to any of the rules conversions?

Technically, it doesn't. But the end goal of this project isn't an actual conversion, but rather an entire CS book (modeled after the 3.0 FRCS), which contains non-crunch information, including a geography chapter--which has planet dimensions.

Roger

[Hugin]

I voted Earth-size (which it really has to be if you want to include all the officially mapped areas) with thicker crust. However, doubling the Hollow World area was a very close second that wasn't picked solely because of the difficulties in rescaling the maps.

Regarding the ocean in the west (I think it's called Far End Ocean if I remember correctly), it again has to be very large if you want to accept all the officially mapped areas because of the amount of land between the equator and the poles. My personally preference is toward a large ocean anyway simply because I feel Mystara doesn't have nearly enough ocean.

For some visuals, see this thread. It was made using certain assumptions but the results should be relatively accurate.

Technically, it doesn't. But the end goal of this project isn't an actual conversion, but rather an entire CS book (modeled after the 3.0 FRCS), which contains non-crunch information, including a geography chapter--which has planet dimensions.

You beat me too it.

[cab]

Yes. But the whole area (the vast ocean, that is) is open for development anyway, so there's nothing to stop us from adding things to explain these problems. It could be magic gates at certain points in the ocean, for example - and we might consider making them a feature of the vast ocean in general, with gates scattered at various points throughout the setting. That would make the whole thing more accessible - and thus playable.

I don't see the vast ocean with infrequent travel across as being a problem; you might see trade or travel between Zyxl and the Arm of the Immortals (for example), but theres still plenty of ocean there for distant, isolated island cultures (Mystaran Polynesia? New Zealand?).

I should think that there could be sporadic contact, but there isn't necessarily reason for frequent trade.

The idea of a campaign centred around exploring the vast oceans, charting the islands, would be quite thrilling.

Roger, I agree with you about contact being very likely. Aside from anything else, the extent of the Alphatian Empire alone proves that there is contact between Brun and Skothar - even if they are pretty far apart. There are probably quite well-established nations in Skothar, because otherwise the Known World nations might well already be setting off to plunder whatever there is there to take...

Its easier to maintain contact within one political entity (the Alphatian Empire) than across multiple national boundaries; while you might see trade goods travel a very long way, across many borders, that doesn't mean you'd see many travellers making such trips.

[Gawain_VIII]

It seems that Earth-sized, double crust is the dominant preference. So, instead of the crust being 1200 miles thick, it's 1200 miles to the mantle/World Shield. Unless there is some overwhelming objection, that will be the new "official" measurement as far as M3e goes.

But--one last issue, will the depth of certain caverns need to be changed? Particularly the SE Caverns (City of Stars/Oakenmar) and the lower BrokenLands. I don't recall what their "current" depth is. How close does the City of Starts/Oakemnar need to be to the World Shield to produce the reverse gravity effect?

Roger

[Havard]

But--one last issue, will the depth of certain caverns need to be changed? Particularly the SE Caverns (City of Stars/Oakenmar) and the lower BrokenLands. I don't recall what their "current" depth is. How close does the City of Starts/Oakemnar need to be to the World Shield to produce the reverse gravity effect?

I think Bruce Heard suggested that the reversed gravity of the City of the Stars was a result of some other magical effect rather than the World Shield, as it was too far away from the crust.

Havard

[Ashtagon]

I think the canon answer is about 6000 feet from the outer world surface.

[Gawain_VIII]

I think Bruce Heard suggested that the reversed gravity of the City of the Stars was a result of some other magical effect rather than the World Shield, as it was too far away from the crust.

Havard

Good point, I do vaguely remember that!

Roger

[Big Mac]

Technically, it doesn't. But the end goal of this project isn't an actual conversion, but rather an entire CS book (modeled after the 3.0 FRCS), which contains non-crunch information, including a geography chapter--which has planet dimensions.

You beat me too it.

I voted for other.

As a newbie to Mystara, it doesn't really matter to me what size Mystara Campaign Setting makes the world, but logistically it would seem to be most sensible to make the sizes comply with the maps that have already been generated.

So rather than pick a size for the world, I suggest you calculate this backwards and work out a "world for the size"!

It seems like other people are suggsting that making the planet thicker will be the best way (mathematically) to fit things in. I'm very happy to see that done, as it doesn't sound too disruptive.

BTW: I would guess that a thicker crust would give you additional underdark, as well as making it possible for you to have uber deep seas (and maybe even include a new fan created "underdeep" aquatic Mystara subsetting).