Scope and Overview

[Gawain_VIII]

Until such time as Rhialto approves a project forum for this, I'll begin posting here. All threads related to this project will be tagged with [M3e]. Individual Chapter discussions will further be tagged with the chapter topic, such as [M3e-Geography] or [M3e-Characters].

I open this project to everybody's participation, and invite non Mystarans to comment and critique, even offer submissions, at their leisure. In the end, as I hope you all understand, this is my project... I get to "play Bruce" so to speak, and final decisions will reside with me.

This project will, initially consist of two books: Mystara Campaign Setting and Monsters of the Known World.

The second book will rely primarily on Jamie's conversions (we already have his permission) and he will gain full authorship credit. This book will essentially be a 3e reprint of the 2e Mystara Monsterous Compendium. Of course it will not be a total conversion, as some of the "classic" to 2e modifications will be removed, and several "WotC-only" monsters will not be included. Anyone willing to step forward and commit themselves to typesetting this document, or write the non-monster sections (introduction, etc.) will be greatfully appreciated--allowing the rest of us to focus on the main portion of the project.

The first book--which will be the primary focus--will be modeled after the 3e FRCS. Chapter descriptions shall consist of the following:

• Introduction
• Ch. 1-Characters
• Ch. 2-Magic
• Ch. 3-Life in the KW
• Ch. 4-Geography
• Ch. 5-Immortals
• Ch. 6-History
• Ch. 7-Organizations
• Ch. 8-Running the World
• Ch. 9-Monsters

The target era for this work is the Known World AC 1000. This includes the entire mass of what is commonly called the Known World, with the addition of Alphatia, including the Isle of Dawn, Wendar, and Sind. Other areas may be referred to, but they will not get the complete treatment in this book.

When there is an issue with canon or continuity, newer works take precedence over older works.

I do intend to include "new material" by way of supporting fan contributions. After we consider printed official material from TSR, we can then include any era/setting apropriate fan material that does not cause conflict with published material.
In all cases, ensure that any submissions have proper documentation and permissions, for credit purposes.

Now, on to rules-issues. We will not re-design 3rd edition. We will no re-invent the wheel or re-write the elf's statistics. We can add descriptive text to explain why something is the way it is. We can add new rules. But we will no remove anything, and we will only change what is absolutely necessary, and then only as far as necessary.
An example of apropriate tweaks include creating the shadowelf sub-race, adding a terrain requirement to the Survival skill, creating an "elven magical training" feat to simulate the "magical elf" concept, or writing a sidebar explaining why half-elves are so rare they are thought to be non-existant.

Now, I understand that not everything will fall neatly together. The half-elf issue, for example, has so many problems with it that there can be no settlement. In these cases, we will discuss, but in the end, as I stated earlier, the final decision will be mine.

Now... GET TO WORK!

(And I thank you all ahead of time for the help that you will contribute.)
Roger

[Thorf]

Wow, you've been busy, Roger!! Excellent to see all this out in the open. It's looking very promising indeed. (Here's a Mr Green just for you, since I know you like him so much. )

I've been thinking about how our projects could interact with each other and ultimately help each other out. It seems that there are quite a few overlapping parts, where we are both using the same information or doing almost the same thing.

As you know, currently I have two major projects on the run, and they are inescapably entwined together. If my Atlas project can be of any help to you providing maps, I'll be happy to oblige. But it's the database which I think could be the biggest help, allowing us to collect and collate information in a highly efficient and structured way, without worrying about formatting until the stage where we output the final product.

Specific areas where I think the database could help you include monsters, organisations, history, immortals, geography, and quite probably magic and characters. (Yes, almost every section could benefit, I think.) Since things are still in the design stages, we could actually design tables and such to accommodate your project, too. In fact the only downside is that the database is not online yet.

Finally, I'll also be happy to help with designing and assembling covers, proofreading, and miscellaneous help with layout and graphic design if you need it.

It's great to have your project under way again!

[Havard]

This is a great overview. Maybe once this project is done, we could make a few minor tweaks and launch in again as the Pathfinder version

I like the chapter divisions you are going with here. I might have skipped chapters 3 and 8, but you may have specific ideas about these so I am looking forward to reading them!

Oh, and for chapter 7, you might want to take a look at OldDawg's Landfall gazetteer

Havard

[Big Mac]

Until such time as Rhialto approves a project forum for this, I'll begin posting here. All threads related to this project will be tagged with [M3e]. Individual Chapter discussions will further be tagged with the chapter topic, such as [M3e-Geography] or [M3e-Characters].

I open this project to everybody's participation, and invite non Mystarans to comment and critique, even offer submissions, at their leisure. In the end, as I hope you all understand, this is my project... I get to "play Bruce" so to speak, and final decisions will reside with me.

Sounds like a good way to run it. I've always offered suggestions on a "use what is good and ignore what doesn't work for you" basis, so don't feel any need to pamper my ego if I say something that clashes with your ideas (but letting me know you read something I said will let me know that you didn't miss it ).

This project will, initially consist of two books: Mystara Campaign Setting and Monsters of the Known World.

That seems like a very good plan for the initial target. I take it that things like Hollow World Campaign Setting or Monsters of the Hollow World could come along later and build on MCS and MotKW.

The second book will rely primarily on Jamie's conversions (we already have his permission) and he will gain full authorship credit. This book will essentially be a 3e reprint of the 2e Mystara Monsterous Compendium. Of course it will not be a total conversion, as some of the "classic" to 2e modifications will be removed, and several "WotC-only" monsters will not be included. Anyone willing to step forward and commit themselves to typesetting this document, or write the non-monster sections (introduction, etc.) will be greatfully appreciated--allowing the rest of us to focus on the main portion of the project.

A quick and dirty beta version of this (with links to the monsters or a copy and paste of all the monsters) could help with playtesting. The Creature Catalogue team (over at ENWorld) might be able to help with any missing conversions.

Some of the SRD monsters (that I presume you wouldn't bother including) have got gods in the Monster Manual. So maybe these creatures need to have some sort of "conversion to Mystara" even if they don't need game stats. I believe the Eberron community did something called "Ecologies of Eberron", so maybe you could do something like that (probably as a separate project that comes along later).

The first book--which will be the primary focus--will be modeled after the 3e FRCS. Chapter descriptions shall consist of the following:

• Introduction
• Ch. 1-Characters
• Ch. 2-Magic
• Ch. 3-Life in the KW
• Ch. 4-Geography
• Ch. 5-Immortals
• Ch. 6-History
• Ch. 7-Organizations
• Ch. 8-Running the World
• Ch. 9-Monsters

Sounds like a good plan, although you might want to skim through DLCS, ECS and any other 3e campaign settings to see if they have a layout that might be more compatible with Mystara.

However, please add an "Index" section to the back (like FRCS has) and maybe a Glossary (that can help explain special words like Immortal). I'm not entirely sure why you need Monsters if there is going to be a second free monster PDF.

You might also want to release individual chapters in "beta" form as you finish them (I'm pretty sure other fan communities have done that sort of thing). That could help people to proofread the thing and playtest it. If you wait until you have the entire thing done there will be a long delay before you can ensure that everything has been checked.

The target era for this work is the Known World AC 1000. This includes the entire mass of what is commonly called the Known World, with the addition of Alphatia, including the Isle of Dawn, Wendar, and Sind. Other areas may be referred to, but they will not get the complete treatment in this book.

DLCS has a chapter 9 called "Other Eras of Play" that tells people how to run a campaign that isn't set in 419AC (After Cataclysm in the case of DL).

Maybe you could do something like that too. If 1,000 AC was the "default year", then your "Future History" of your timeline could get pulled from the History chapter and plonked into another chapter. And you could also stick in a few small suggestions* for every era without telling GMs every detail they need to run a campaign in the past (or future).

* = Full rules for playing in the year X might need to wait for a future netbook, but if the concept of using something like the peak of Blackmoor excites people, it could form the basis of a new netbook project.

When there is an issue with canon or continuity, newer works take precedence over older works.

That sounds sensible. I don't want to push you (or your helpers) into extra work, but I think that a canon encyclopedia for Mystra** could really help some people to avoid creating canon/continuity problems. This is the main reason why I started up the SJ Wiki. I always find it hard to write for a campaign setting (or shared world) until I can get hold of a "writers bible" and if one doesn't exist, I end up needing to create it myself in order to scan through it and start churning out ideas.

** = I know for a fact that if I had access to a canon Mystara encyclopedia and could get the Spelljammer Wiki a bit more complete I could scan through both of them and cherry pick matching concepts or contrasting concepts that could be used to create Mystaraspace fanon, so something like this would have a use beyond MCS. If properly researched and citated it would also help underpin any endangered Wikipedia articles about Mystara or original Dungeons & Dragons.

I do intend to include "new material" by way of supporting fan contributions. After we consider printed official material from TSR, we can then include any era/setting apropriate fan material that does not cause conflict with published material.

That seems to fit in with the way that the 3rd edition FRCS filled in some of the areas that were previously "left for the GM to develop". I think that fan content might also be able to retcon some of the canon continuity problems (by creating a few interim events that explain some of the clashes).

In all cases, ensure that any submissions have proper documentation and permissions, for credit purposes.

I'm not sure that I'll actually be able to give you anything useful (except proofreading and nitpicking) but: I David "Big Mac" Shepheard hearby grant permission for any of my Mystara postings to be used within your conversion project and/or uploaded onto Vaults of Pandius. Is that good enough?

Now, on to rules-issues. We will not re-design 3rd edition. We will no re-invent the wheel or re-write the elf's statistics. We can add descriptive text to explain why something is the way it is. We can add new rules. But we will no remove anything, and we will only change what is absolutely necessary, and then only as far as necessary.

Sounds good. If you don't like 3e, then don't play 3e Mystara - if you do like 3e, then play a 3e Mystara that does justice to both the game and the setting.

FRCS and DLCS both tinker with the core rules, so you might eventually find some sort of race or monster that won't play straight out of the box, but your "mission statement" is a good starting point.

An example of apropriate tweaks include creating the shadowelf sub-race, adding a terrain requirement to the Survival skill, creating an "elven magical training" feat to simulate the "magical elf" concept, or writing a sidebar explaining why half-elves are so rare they are thought to be non-existant.

A number of new subraces might be appropriate. (Your contributors should be using the SRD as their writers bible to avoid accidentally including things that you can't legally use.) There are a number of subraces in the monster versions of playable races and they can be used to help design the differences of subraces like shadowelves.

Now, I understand that not everything will fall neatly together. The half-elf issue, for example, has so many problems with it that there can be no settlement. In these cases, we will discuss, but in the end, as I stated earlier, the final decision will be mine.

Sometimes pulling something out of the game might actually be good for 3e. (But pulling it out purely because it wasn't in 0e or 2e isn't doing what is best for Mystara.) A 3e Mystara project should do what is best for the game and what is best for the setting. And if there is some sort of disagreement or some sort of conflict between different canon, people should try to see what the spirit of the game suggests should happen. (I don't envy you making the "final decision", because that means you will always be the man who "killed monster X" to some random raving fanboy. )

As for half-elves, you might want to leave them in the game (as a PC option - or as a PC option with the GMs permission) but yank all the PHB flavor text and make them be considered as a unique creature. In other words keep the "crunch" but replace the "fluff". Perhaps the MCS could suggest that lifetime friendships between elves and humans are an uncommon thing and that relationships leading to marriage have mostly come about after an elf and a human have met while adventuring together. This could make 99.9 percent of half-elves the children of adventurers and put them outside "normal" society.

Now... GET TO WORK!

(And I thank you all ahead of time for the help that you will contribute.)
Roger

I can't promise I'll do much (if I do anything at all) but you have my best wishes for your sucess.

[Gawain_VIII]

Sounds like a good way to run it. I've always offered suggestions on a "use what is good and ignore what doesn't work for you" basis, so don't feel any need to pamper my ego if I say something that clashes with your ideas (but letting me know you read something I said will let me know that you didn't miss it ).

I thouroughly intend to.

That seems like a very good plan for the initial target. I take it that things like Hollow World Campaign Setting or Monsters of the Hollow World could come along later and build on MCS and MotKW.

That's the plan.

A quick and dirty beta version of this (with links to the monsters or a copy and paste of all the monsters) could help with playtesting. The Creature Catalogue team (over at ENWorld) might be able to help with any missing conversions.

Some of the SRD monsters (that I presume you wouldn't bother including) have got gods in the Monster Manual. So maybe these creatures need to have some sort of "conversion to Mystara" even if they don't need game stats. I believe the Eberron community did something called "Ecologies of Eberron", so maybe you could do something like that (probably as a separate project that comes along later).

AFAIK, Jamie modified the descriptions neccessary to remove any god references and place the fluff firmly into Mystara.

Sounds like a good plan, although you might want to skim through DLCS, ECS and any other 3e campaign settings to see if they have a layout that might be more compatible with Mystara.

However, please add an "Index" section to the back (like FRCS has) and maybe a Glossary (that can help explain special words like Immortal). I'm not entirely sure why you need Monsters if there is going to be a second free monster PDF.

You might also want to release individual chapters in "beta" form as you finish them (I'm pretty sure other fan communities have done that sort of thing). That could help people to proofread the thing and playtest it. If you wait until you have the entire thing done there will be a long delay before you can ensure that everything has been checked.

I've taken a look at others. If I were to use a different model, it would most likely be the fan-made BRCS from birthright.net.
But for now, I'm staying with the current TOC. An index will be included.

DLCS has a chapter 9 called "Other Eras of Play" that tells people how to run a campaign that isn't set in 419AC (After Cataclysm in the case of DL).

Maybe you could do something like that too. If 1,000 AC was the "default year", then your "Future History" of your timeline could get pulled from the History chapter and plonked into another chapter. And you could also stick in a few small suggestions* for every era without telling GMs every detail they need to run a campaign in the past (or future).

* = Full rules for playing in the year X might need to wait for a future netbook, but if the concept of using something like the peak of Blackmoor excites people, it could form the basis of a new netbook project.

I hadn't considered this. Considering all the different possible time-play games, I'm more likely to suggest a seperate "eras" suppliment.

That sounds sensible. I don't want to push you (or your helpers) into extra work, but I think that a canon encyclopedia for Mystra** could really help some people to avoid creating canon/continuity problems. This is the main reason why I started up the SJ Wiki. I always find it hard to write for a campaign setting (or shared world) until I can get hold of a "writers bible" and if one doesn't exist, I end up needing to create it myself in order to scan through it and start churning out ideas.

In addition to a conversion, that is one of the goals of this project. Up until now there has never been a single-source book for the setting. My hope is that the community will embrace this and turn it into de-facto "canon"... If not, oh well, it'll still be MY canon.

That seems to fit in with the way that the 3rd edition FRCS filled in some of the areas that were previously "left for the GM to develop". I think that fan content might also be able to retcon some of the canon continuity problems (by creating a few interim events that explain some of the clashes).

Meaning no disrespect to the original authors, but I've found that much of the fan material is better in some ways than the published canon. Additionally, I want to provide a "nod" to the community for keeping the setting alive.

I'm not sure that I'll actually be able to give you anything useful (except proofreading and nitpicking) but: I David "Big Mac" Shepheard hearby grant permission for any of my Mystara postings to be used within your conversion project and/or uploaded onto Vaults of Pandius. Is that good enough?

That's one of the things I need most. I had especially hoped that either you or ND would end up responding--because you are relative Mystaran newbies, you'll see holes that us M-grognards take for granted. It is very much appreciated.

Sounds good. If you don't like 3e, then don't play 3e Mystara - if you do like 3e, then play a 3e Mystara that does justice to both the game and the setting.

FRCS and DLCS both tinker with the core rules, so you might eventually find some sort of race or monster that won't play straight out of the box, but your "mission statement" is a good starting point.

That's pretty much the idea. The only thing I've had to fudge, rules-wise, is the Radiance Mage PrC...

A number of new subraces might be appropriate. (Your contributors should be using the SRD as their writers bible to avoid accidentally including things that you can't legally use.) There are a number of subraces in the monster versions of playable races and they can be used to help design the differences of subraces like shadowelves.

I have tried to keep these to a minimum, but elves, dwarves, and gnomes have their respective subraces included.

Sometimes pulling something out of the game might actually be good for 3e. (But pulling it out purely because it wasn't in 0e or 2e isn't doing what is best for Mystara.) A 3e Mystara project should do what is best for the game and what is best for the setting. And if there is some sort of disagreement or some sort of conflict between different canon, people should try to see what the spirit of the game suggests should happen. (I don't envy you making the "final decision", because that means you will always be the man who "killed monster X" to some random raving fanboy. )

As for half-elves, you might want to leave them in the game (as a PC option - or as a PC option with the GMs permission) but yank all the PHB flavor text and make them be considered as a unique creature. In other words keep the "crunch" but replace the "fluff". Perhaps the MCS could suggest that lifetime friendships between elves and humans are an uncommon thing and that relationships leading to marriage have mostly come about after an elf and a human have met while adventuring together. This could make 99.9 percent of half-elves the children of adventurers and put them outside "normal" society.

I chose to write a sidebar, basically saying that "half-races are so rare that they are thought to be extinct. However, at the DM's option, they should appear as per the PHB"... or something like that.

Havard (or was it Andrew?) brought to my attention a reference to half-orcs, so unlike half-elves, they aren't neccessarily non-existant--just localized to central Darokin where they're used as manual/slave labor. I've yet to modify that sidebar, but it is on my list of things to do.

I can't promise I'll do much (if I do anything at all) but you have my best wishes for your sucess.

You have been recruited by the Mystara league to defend the setting against Alphaks and the Entropic Armada...

Bonus points for correctly identifying the above reference.

I will post replies to all of your other messages in the coming few days,
Roger

[Big Mac]

<snip - questions answered>

Sounds like a good plan, although you might want to skim through DLCS, ECS and any other 3e campaign settings to see if they have a layout that might be more compatible with Mystara.

However, please add an "Index" section to the back (like FRCS has) and maybe a Glossary (that can help explain special words like Immortal). I'm not entirely sure why you need Monsters if there is going to be a second free monster PDF.

You might also want to release individual chapters in "beta" form as you finish them (I'm pretty sure other fan communities have done that sort of thing). That could help people to proofread the thing and playtest it. If you wait until you have the entire thing done there will be a long delay before you can ensure that everything has been checked.

I've taken a look at others. If I were to use a different model, it would most likely be the fan-made BRCS from birthright.net.
But for now, I'm staying with the current TOC. An index will be included.

BRCS is certainly impressive (especially with them getting Silverblade to do some art for them).

"Yay!" to the index. The worst thing about the 3rd edition Dragonlance stuff is that there isn't an index.

DLCS has a chapter 9 called "Other Eras of Play" that tells people how to run a campaign that isn't set in 419AC (After Cataclysm in the case of DL).

Maybe you could do something like that too. If 1,000 AC was the "default year", then your "Future History" of your timeline could get pulled from the History chapter and plonked into another chapter. And you could also stick in a few small suggestions* for every era without telling GMs every detail they need to run a campaign in the past (or future).

* = Full rules for playing in the year X might need to wait for a future netbook, but if the concept of using something like the peak of Blackmoor excites people, it could form the basis of a new netbook project.

I hadn't considered this. Considering all the different possible time-play games, I'm more likely to suggest a seperate "eras" suppliment.

Dragonlance does both of these things. As well as a 26 page chapter in DLCS, there is also an entire sourcebook (called Legends of the Twins*).

* = SIC - Legend of the Twins (without the "s" is the name of the DL novel).

That sounds sensible. I don't want to push you (or your helpers) into extra work, but I think that a canon encyclopedia for Mystra** could really help some people to avoid creating canon/continuity problems. This is the main reason why I started up the SJ Wiki. I always find it hard to write for a campaign setting (or shared world) until I can get hold of a "writers bible" and if one doesn't exist, I end up needing to create it myself in order to scan through it and start churning out ideas.

In addition to a conversion, that is one of the goals of this project. Up until now there has never been a single-source book for the setting. My hope is that the community will embrace this and turn it into de-facto "canon"... If not, oh well, it'll still be MY canon.

I think a lot of the SJ fans want to pretty much do the same sort of thing, but because there is a lot of good canon, some of us (mostly me) want to make sure we don't accidentally dump any useful canon. And many of us would rather fix "damaged canon" than dump it.

Having said that, SJ gives a freedom that Mystara doesn't. In SJ, every crystal sphere has its own internal rules, so you can have stuff like gods in one sphere, Immortals in another, and forces of nature in a third. For your MCS, you need to infer one set of "rules of nature" and that set of rules is likely to come back to haunt Hollow World, Thunder Rift or Red Steel if you get something wrong.

That seems to fit in with the way that the 3rd edition FRCS filled in some of the areas that were previously "left for the GM to develop". I think that fan content might also be able to retcon some of the canon continuity problems (by creating a few interim events that explain some of the clashes).

Meaning no disrespect to the original authors, but I've found that much of the fan material is better in some ways than the published canon. Additionally, I want to provide a "nod" to the community for keeping the setting alive.

The same sort of thing is going on in the SJ community (although a lot of SJ fanon is "scatterware"). I suspect that all the out of print settings have some really creative fans. To be fair, the original R&D time was fairly limited and we have "an infinate number of Hadozee"!

I'm not sure that I'll actually be able to give you anything useful (except proofreading and nitpicking) but: I David "Big Mac" Shepheard hearby grant permission for any of my Mystara postings to be used within your conversion project and/or uploaded onto Vaults of Pandius. Is that good enough?

That's one of the things I need most. I had especially hoped that either you or ND would end up responding--because you are relative Mystaran newbies, you'll see holes that us M-grognards take for granted. It is very much appreciated.

Well, Night Druid will give you some great advice (if you can get him over here) as he has real-life publishing experience with HackJammer. If it wasn't for the fact that Paul W. really dislikes 3e, he would be a great person to talk to (as he has a ton of D&D and AD&D facts in his head).

Sounds good. If you don't like 3e, then don't play 3e Mystara - if you do like 3e, then play a 3e Mystara that does justice to both the game and the setting.

FRCS and DLCS both tinker with the core rules, so you might eventually find some sort of race or monster that won't play straight out of the box, but your "mission statement" is a good starting point.

That's pretty much the idea. The only thing I've had to fudge, rules-wise, is the Radiance Mage PrC...

Well, you do have to fudge the religion!

Out: Greyhawk deities.

In: Mystara Immortals.

I'm guessing, that as you go along, there are bound to be a few details in the normal fluff that don't make sense. I suspect you will either need new fluff (to make them work the same way, but in a Mystara context) or need new crunch to replace the crunch associated with the fluff. (Your half-elf thing would seem to be an example of this issue poping up.)

A number of new subraces might be appropriate. (Your contributors should be using the SRD as their writers bible to avoid accidentally including things that you can't legally use.) There are a number of subraces in the monster versions of playable races and they can be used to help design the differences of subraces like shadowelves.

I have tried to keep these to a minimum, but elves, dwarves, and gnomes have their respective subraces included.

Hmm. I'm guessing that Mystara used D&D as the core, in the same way that Greyhawk used AD&D (and then 3e as its core). So if both settings are tied to the core, then both should (from a rules point of view) be very similar.

<snip>

As for half-elves, you might want to leave them in the game (as a PC option - or as a PC option with the GMs permission) but yank all the PHB flavor text and make them be considered as a unique creature. In other words keep the "crunch" but replace the "fluff". Perhaps the MCS could suggest that lifetime friendships between elves and humans are an uncommon thing and that relationships leading to marriage have mostly come about after an elf and a human have met while adventuring together. This could make 99.9 percent of half-elves the children of adventurers and put them outside "normal" society.

I chose to write a sidebar, basically saying that "half-races are so rare that they are thought to be extinct. However, at the DM's option, they should appear as per the PHB"... or something like that.

Havard (or was it Andrew?) brought to my attention a reference to half-orcs, so unlike half-elves, they aren't neccessarily non-existant--just localized to central Darokin where they're used as manual/slave labor. I've yet to modify that sidebar, but it is on my list of things to do.

This is the sort of area where a canon search can give useful pointers.

I don't know 0e, but if half-elves don't exist in it, I wouldn't say "half races are thought to be extinct..." (as that implies that people have knowledge of these crossbreeds). Instead I would probably say something along the lines of: "While possible on Mystara, races like half-elves and half-orcs are so rare that most people on the Known World have never met one and don't know what they are. This leads many people to believe that it isn't possible for humans and other similar races to have children together."

I would then go on to document how being a member of a weird-unknown race might give different game stats to being from a known race. One thing you might want to do, is work out what options half-elves and half-orcs could have if they want to worship an Immortal. (The main thing I would suggest you do with your side bar is state that these are "only with the GMs permission" and maybe also suggest to the GM that they only allow a max of one or two half-elves/half-orcs, but then create all the rules a GM needs if they do decide to use the races.)

Maybe the AD&D version of Mystara has rules about where half-elves and half-orcs might live.

I just had a thought. If slavery created half-orcs, then maybe they don't exist (as a PC race) before year X (when the original enslavement occurred) but do exist after year X. And you could do the same thing for half-elves and the year Y. All you need to do is find some sort of event that would thrust elves and humans together. You could always create an isolated "Thunder Rift"-style hidden valley (or an island) where a small group of outcast elves and humans live together in some sort of giant commune**.

** = Actually, something I've been trying to get working for ages is the concept of half-elves that have parents who are also half-elves and have no memory that they come from humans and elves. In SJ, the elves did some pretty weird things to try to create a way to fight the goblinoids in the First Unhuman War (including turning their own people into "bionoids"). So the concept of a bunch of elves who deliberately "breed" with humans, purely on the grounds that they can produce an army of half-elves faster than an army of elves is the sort of thing I could imagine the Elven Imperial Navy doing.

I'm not sure that sort of logic would work for Mystara, but you are welcome to do a Known World remix if you like it.

I can't promise I'll do much (if I do anything at all) but you have my best wishes for your sucess.

You have been recruited by the Mystara league to defend the setting against Alphaks and the Entropic Armada...

Bonus points for correctly identifying the above reference.

I'm not sure who said that. Maybe I should ask my friend: Alex Rogan.

Bonus points for being able to find stuff on Google.

I will post replies to all of your other messages in the coming few days,

Thanks. I'm fairly busy at the moment, so there might be a bit of ping-pong necromancy going on.

[Havard]

I don't know 0e, but if half-elves don't exist in it, I wouldn't say "half races are thought to be extinct..." (as that implies that people have knowledge of these crossbreeds). Instead I would probably say something along the lines of: "While possible on Mystara, races like half-elves and half-orcs are so rare that most people on the Known World have never met one and don't know what they are. This leads many people to believe that it isn't possible for humans and other similar races to have children together."

What causes this problem is that the Alfheim gazetteer goes into detail about what offspring between humans and elves are like (basically taking after the parent of the same gender), but also states that there are legends of a True Half Elf race which combines the traits of both parents. The Voyage of the Princess Ark series then detail rules for playing Half-Elves and describe how they exist on the Savage Coast.

Actually, this is what you should do in your conversion Roger: "Half-Elves are believed to be the stuff of legend in the Known World, but they exist on the Savage Coast."

Half-Orcs are described(fluff only) in the Darokin Gazetteer so they should not pose a problem. The Orcs of Thar Gaz also has rules for creating all sorts of humanoid (goblinoid) crossbreeds as those races interbreed all the time (eeew).

Havard

[Hugin]

...creating all sorts of humanoid (goblinoid) crossbreeds as those races interbreed all the time (eeew).

Havard

I just had the thought, 'if they are interbreeding all the time, how are the humanoid races staying true and not reverting to a Beast-Man-like state again?'

[maddog]

I just had the thought, 'if they are interbreeding all the time, how are the humanoid races staying true and not reverting to a Beast-Man-like state again?'

It could be that the "weak" don't survive. Both because they really are weak and that the humanoids kill any that don't look like themselves. They are vile critters after all.

--Ray.

[Big Mac]

I don't know 0e, but if half-elves don't exist in it, I wouldn't say "half races are thought to be extinct..." (as that implies that people have knowledge of these crossbreeds). Instead I would probably say something along the lines of: "While possible on Mystara, races like half-elves and half-orcs are so rare that most people on the Known World have never met one and don't know what they are. This leads many people to believe that it isn't possible for humans and other similar races to have children together."

What causes this problem is that the Alfheim gazetteer goes into detail about what offspring between humans and elves are like (basically taking after the parent of the same gender), but also states that there are legends of a True Half Elf race which combines the traits of both parents. The Voyage of the Princess Ark series then detail rules for playing Half-Elves and describe how they exist on the Savage Coast.

Actually, this is what you should do in your conversion Roger: "Half-Elves are believed to be the stuff of legend in the Known World, but they exist on the Savage Coast."

Hmm. Actually, I think he should go beyond this (from a fluff point of view) and give all the information that you gave in your first paragraph. If you say "Half-Elves are believed to be the stuff of legend..." it sounds like "You can't play Half-Elves".

But if you say "In the Known World the child of an elf and a human is the same race as the parant their sex matches." then you are saying yes to the "fluff" of a half elf, but statistically treating them like an elf or a human. As a newbie I wouldn't get that impression without all the facts.

As for the legend, as Half-Elves are "unavailable as PC race" for Known World PCs, I'd be tempted to put that legend into a side bar. (And if I mentioned the "Savage Coast thing", it would be to say that the nature of the Savage Coast makes true Half-Elves possible there and that "this would be described in the forthcoming Savage Coast Campaign Setting expansion".)

I don't think that your core rules should be providing single race options from the Savage Coast, but do think you can slip in the odd advert!

Half-Orcs are described(fluff only) in the Darokin Gazetteer so they should not pose a problem. The Orcs of Thar Gaz also has rules for creating all sorts of humanoid (goblinoid) crossbreeds as those races interbreed all the time (eeew).

Hmm. Sounds like weird cross-breed templates. I think that one of the Dragonlance books had a bunch of crossbreeds. You should look to see how they did it (before writing your own version).

I just had the thought, 'if they are interbreeding all the time, how are the humanoid races staying true and not reverting to a Beast-Man-like state again?'

It could be that the "weak" don't survive. Both because they really are weak and that the humanoids kill any that don't look like themselves. They are vile critters after all.

IIRC Dragonlance has some pretty mutated looking Beastmen.

As for humanoids killing cross-breads, there is a NPC in the Cloakmaster Cycle (Spelljammer novels) that is half orc and half ogre (or ogre magi). He got bulled at "scro school" until they accidentally discovered that he was somehow totally immune to magic. They then realised that he would be unstoppable against wizards (and so on) and treated him better.

[Havard]

Actually, this is what you should do in your conversion Roger: "Half-Elves are believed to be the stuff of legend in the Known World, but they exist on the Savage Coast."

Hmm. Actually, I think he should go beyond this (from a fluff point of view) and give all the information that you gave in your first paragraph. If you say "Half-Elves are believed to be the stuff of legend..." it sounds like "You can't play Half-Elves".

But if you say "In the Known World the child of an elf and a human is the same race as the parant their sex matches." then you are saying yes to the "fluff" of a half elf, but statistically treating them like an elf or a human. As a newbie I wouldn't get that impression without all the facts.[/quote]

Actually, I was thinking Half-elves should be allowed in the Known World as long as it is stressed that they are extremely rare there and may often have an origin outside that region.

Havard

[Big Mac]

Actually, I was thinking Half-elves should be allowed in the Known World as long as it is stressed that they are extremely rare there and may often have an origin outside that region.

Bring on the spacefaring half elves!

[Gawain_VIII]

Big update

I'm now settled at my new duty station in South Korea. I'll be here for a year. My books and other such materials are being shipped via mail. I'm expecting them to arrrive within a month. As soon as they get here, I'll be back on track, and in full force. I hope to get the CS completed before I go home on leave aroung Feb/Mar.

So, please, everybody--I expect lots of traffic for this project to develop very soon.

For now, I remain...

Roger

[Hugin]

Good to hear, Roger.

It's an awful wait while those books make their trip through the mail, eh?!

[Havard]

+1. Looking forward to this Roger!

Havard

[Big Mac]

I'm now settled at my new duty station in South Korea. I'll be here for a year. My books and other such materials are being shipped via mail. I'm expecting them to arrrive within a month. As soon as they get here, I'll be back on track, and in full force. I hope to get the CS completed before I go home on leave aroung Feb/Mar.

I look forward to seeing your work.

It is a shame that you don't have PDF copies of your gamebooks. They are not quite so useful for book-flipping, but you can fit a lot of them onto a memory stick and carry them around with you.

[Giorgio]

Its been almost 2 years since you wrote your initial Scope and Overview introductory post. There has been more information added since then , and perhaps its time to go back and update the initial post to reflect all the changes and feedback you have done/received over the years?

[Gawain_VIII]

Its been almost 2 years since you wrote your initial Scope and Overview introductory post. There has been more information added since then , and perhaps its time to go back and update the initial post to reflect all the changes and feedback you have done/received over the years?

The Scope and Overview hasn;t been updated since it's original purpose still applies. The proposed Table of Contents has been modified slightly, but I don't have a final version yet, and it might still change. In the end, the reason for the first post is as a reminder to myself of the stated goals--which has not changed.