[Characters] Races

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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Wilhelm » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:19 pm

BTW, is there any chance of having lupin and rakasta breeds for 3e as well, Gawain? :)
I did myself an attemp of doing so, but I'm not so sure how well (un?)balanced it is
http://www.pandius.com/lupnbred.html

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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:33 pm

Wilhelm wrote:is there any chance of having lupin and rakasta breeds for 3e as well
I'd love to, but time, energy, and space prohibit me from doing so, for the same reason I didn't outline the human ethnicities and only dividedthe elves into sub-races instead of by clan--even though those ideas would be better--it's not really feasable in a product that's supposed to mimic a printed book.

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Elven Subraces

Post by Gawain_VIII » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:57 am

Okay, I got to thinking about the proposed changes for the elven subraces. Changing Sylvan to Wood makes sense because that second group never actually went to the Sylvan Realm.

Here comes the problem: Forest Elf vs Wood Elf. Kinda sounds like the distinction between them is the type of tree they live in--which is definitely NOT the case.

So, here's a few things to consider:
--The term "Forest Elf" is canon, it was used extensively in Gaz8 to make a distinction between land and sea clans.
--The Verider clan, a landborne tribe, was the primary reference to Forest Elf in Gaz8.
--The Verider is a member of the 2nd migration (the one that never went to the Sylvan Realm).

With that in mind, this is what I'm thinking... The first group (also called Illsundal Elves) should be termed Sylvan and the second group (previously called sylvan, in this conversion) should be named Forest.

Thoughts? Is this a good fix?
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Re: Elven Subraces

Post by Havard » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:26 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote: So, here's a few things to consider:
--The term "Forest Elf" is canon, it was used extensively in Gaz8 to make a distinction between land and sea clans.
--The Verider clan, a landborne tribe, was the primary reference to Forest Elf in Gaz8.
--The Verider is a member of the 2nd migration (the one that never went to the Sylvan Realm).

With that in mind, this is what I'm thinking... The first group (also called Illsundal Elves) should be termed Sylvan and the second group (previously called sylvan, in this conversion) should be named Forest.
I like the shift to using the Forest Elf term to the "Verdier/Vyalia/Wendar" group. As you say, having one group called Sylvan and the other Forest could seem a little confusing. Other possible terms for the Alfheim/Ellerowyn/Callarii group:

High Elves: Not really a term used in canon, but that is basically what they are.
Ilsundal Elves: As you mentioned. They follow the Path of Ilsundal.
Rainbow Elves: Since they travelled using the Rainbow.
Alfheim Elves: Simple, not exactly correct, but refers to the elves of Alfheim and those similar to them.

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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:29 pm

Found the reference I mentioned earlier from Gaz9; it's in the player's guide, p.3.

In the oral history of the Water Elves, the water elf name for themselves is Alfasser, while the wood elves are called the Alfund.
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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:52 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:In the oral history of the Water Elves, the water elf name for themselves is Alfasser, while the wood elves are called the Alfund.
This sounds like the elven (i.e. German) word for "Land" and "Water" elf. The German word for water is "wasser" (according to Babelfish) and "und" is similar to "lund", which doesn't translate in Babelfish, but IIRC means land. Of course, I'm not a native speaker.

Seems more of a local term than a proper name. Similarly the Shadow Elves call themselves the Schattenalfen. Not exactly the same thing, but the terms could be used interchangably. (Yes, I know Gaz13 and HW make distinctions between them, but IMO, that distinction is a moot point in this instance.)

I might make a caveat in the description along the lines of "Water elves, or Alfasser, as they call themselves, are blah blah blah..."

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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:56 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:Seems more of a local term than a proper name.
Possibly, but the context in which it is presented suggests that it is a proper name (the speaker even mentions that the water elves "prefer that ancient name by which (they) were known."
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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:34 pm

This also touches upon the question of whether we should look for a more obscure setting relevant term for each subrace or whether we should go with terms that evoke meaning even for those who do not know the setting that well. Terms like Wood Elf, Water Elf and Shadowelf, do convey such a meaning. Shiye Elf does not, although I suppose it could be read as "Shy" elf..

The Hollow World isn't too consistant about this either:
Gentle Folk Elf
Blacklore Elf
Icevale Elf
Schattenalfen

Blacklore an Icevale elves are named after their respecive geographic areas, while Gentle Folk and Schattenalfen have names referring to their natures...

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Re: Gnomes

Post by Cthulhudrew » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:17 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:GNOMES
Region: Gnomes have no nation or developed land of their own. Most tend to dwell among the lands near the dwarves, content to have their burrows near the surface where the dwarves like to avoid. The largest concentrations of gnomes are in Rockhome, the Northern Reaches, the city of Highforge in Karameikos, the Baroky of Buhrohur in Thyatis, and on the flying city of Serraine—a techno-magical marvel.
There is an entry in the history of Ierendi (Gaz4, p. 5) that refers to gnomes:
691 AC The Rise of the Royal Navy: Honor Island magicians enter into secret negotiations with the Supreme Symposium of Gnomish Syndicates to develop magical technological engines of war to enhance the power of the Royal Ierendi Navy.
That's all it has on this Supreme Symposium, and it doesn't mention where said Symposium is located, but I took it to mean that the gnomes have their SSGS somewhere in Ierendi itself, and thus included it as a gnomish region in my campaign book.
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Big Mac » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:37 pm

Is "Hin" the local name for Halflings in Mystara? Or is it the name of a tribe of halflings?
Havard wrote:It is interesting to see that you have kept the distinction between Forest Elves and Sylvan Elves. In my latest version I decided to put them in the same category, but I guess your version is more accurate. I also like that you have been able to identify the differences in appearance between the two. I am wondering about the term Sylvan elves and placing the clan Feadiel within this group however. I thought the Feadiel arrived in the Sylvan Realm with Ilsundal from Grunland? If that is wrong, your categories are appropriate however.
Hmm. There is no need to consolidate subraces just because they are similar. In fact it would be totally acceptable to have 2 subraces of elves that are identical (from a stat adjustment point of view) and only differ in something really small like language options or a favored class.

I've seen a couple of 3e D&D campaign settings that have a ton of "fluff" text followed by something that pretty much says: "this type of elf is the same as the PHB elf".
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:19 pm

Big Mac wrote:Is "Hin" the local name for Halflings in Mystara? Or is it the name of a tribe of halflings?
Actually the term "Hin" is what the halflings refer to themselves as. The term first appeared in Gaz8: The Five Shires by Ed Greenwood. No suprise, considering the author, that it also eventually appeared in the Realms, albeit not till much later.
Havard wrote:It is interesting to see that you have kept the distinction between Forest Elves and Sylvan Elves. In my latest version I decided to put them in the same category, but I guess your version is more accurate. I also like that you have been able to identify the differences in appearance between the two. I am wondering about the term Sylvan elves and placing the clan Feadiel within this group however. I thought the Feadiel arrived in the Sylvan Realm with Ilsundal from Grunland? If that is wrong, your categories are appropriate however.
Havard's quote was quite early in development. That discussion lead to some error corrections and terminology changes... but the function and crunch of the subraces remain the same.
Big Mac wrote:Hmm. There is no need to consolidate subraces just because they are similar. In fact it would be totally acceptable to have 2 subraces of elves that are identical (from a stat adjustment point of view) and only differ in something really small like language options or a favored class.

I've seen a couple of 3e D&D campaign settings that have a ton of "fluff" text followed by something that pretty much says: "this type of elf is the same as the PHB elf".
I was torn back and forth on this one... in the end, I went along with the "standard" of a new subrace for every moderate-to-major fluff distinction or minor crunch change--if for no other reason than it was familiar.

Roger
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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Giorgio » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:55 am

Have two questions with regards to your races and their favored classes. The first is for D&D 3.5, and the second is for D&D 3.75 (AKA Pathfinder RPG)

D&D 3.5:
In my initial reading of your classes I noticed that the great majority of the races don’t have any entry as to their favored class. For ease of reference it would be useful if they all had their favored class in their description (even though you can just reference Chapter 2 of the PHB 3.5)

It makes it easier for new players to read ALL the race entries at once, and not have to be going threw a book (or having to have a computer with the online SRD) just to look up missing information.

HUMANS
• Favored Class: ?

DWARVES
Rockborn Dwarves
• Favored Class: ?

Modrigswerg
• Favored Class: The Moulder dwarves have not one but two favored classes; Wizard and Fighter, whichever is greater (See the DMG, Chapter 6). Most Modriswerg are enchanter specialist wizards as well as accomplished warriors.

ELVES
Forest Elf
• Favored Class: ?

Belcadiz Elf
• Favored Class: ?

Wood Elf
• Favored Class: Ranger.

Shadowelf
• Favored Class: Wizard. As an option, at the DM’s discretion, a Shadowelf shaman may consider Cleric as her favored class instead of Wizard.

Water Elf
• Favored Class: ?

Shiye-Lawr
• Favored Class: Rogue.

Sea Elf
• Favored Class: Fighter.

Dark Elves
• Favored Class: ?

GNOMES
Earth Gnomes
• Favored Class: ?

Skygnomes
• Favored Class: Rogue or Bard. A multiclass skygnome's rogue or bard class (whichever has the highest class level) will not count when determining whether he suffers an XP penalty (see "Experience for Multiclass Characters" in Chapter 3: Classes of the Player's Handbook).

HALF-ELVES
• Favored Class: ?

HALF-ORCS
• Favored Class: ?

HALFLINGS
• Favored Class: ?

HUTAAKANS
• Favored Class: Cleric (Pflarr). A multiclass hutaaka's cleric of Pflarr class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience penalty for multiclassing.

LUPINS
• Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass lupin's ranger class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing.

RAKASTA
• Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass rakasta's fighter class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing. The rakastan culture is stepped in a warrior code, and the path of the fighter is natural to a rakasta.


D&D 3.75:
Pathfinder did away with Favored Classes and multiclass penalties (you now get a bonus for each level in a favored class chosen by the player at 1st level) and instead included a recommendation on which classes members of a certain race leans towards.

Using the core and expanded classes in the fan favorite Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/), which classes would you add to the following list below as recommendations for new players to choose as good starting classes for each race?

For the sake of this exercise let us call these recommendations “Preferred Classes” and limit them to the top three choices that make a good fit based on that races racial ability, Mystara history/references, society and culture.

Note that I use an “expanded universe” GM mindset where I take the classes of D&D 3.5 (the core 11 classes and the “Complete Series”) and the classes of D&D 3.75 (the core 11 classes and the two 3rd party classes, alongside the six Advanced Players Guide classes) to provide the greatest amount of options for my players. This is my preference; other GMs are free to limit options as best work for their campaigns as always.


Core Pathfinder Classes:
Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard

Expanded Pathfinder Classes:
Artificer, Shaman

PF Advance Players Guide Classes:
Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, Witch

Complete Arcane:
Warlock, Warmage

Complete Adventurer:
Ninja, Scout, Spellthief, Wu Jen

Complete Divine:
Favored Soul, Shegenja, Spirit Shaman

Complete Warrior:
Hexblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler

Miniatures Handbook:
Healer, Marshal


Expanded Pathfinder Preferred Classes (v1)

HUMANS
• Preferred Classes: Any

DWARVES
Rockborn Dwarves
• Preferred Classes: Fighters, Barbarians, Clerics

Modrigswerg
• Preferred Classes: Fighter, Wizard

* Due to their strong martial traditions I would also include Marshal as an option.

ELVES

Forest Elf
• Preferred Classes: ?

Belcadiz Elf
• Preferred Classes: ?

Wood Elf
• Preferred Classes: Ranger.

Shadowelf
• Preferred Classes: Wizard, Cleric (alternative: Spirit Shaman or Shaman)

Water Elf
• Preferred Classes: ?

Shiye-Lawr
• Preferred Classes: Rogue.

Sea Elf
• Preferred Classes: Fighter.

Dark Elves
• Preferred Classes:

*PF Elves have Wizard and Ranger as recommend classes, I don’t know enough about the Mystara elves to give good suggestions. With their +2 DEX and +2 INT, they make for great Rogues, Scouts and Warmages.

GNOMES
Earth Gnomes
• Preferred Classes: Rogue, Bard, Sorcerer

Skygnomes
• Preferred Classes: Rogue, Bard, Sorcerer

* Artificer and Alchemists might also make for some good options.

HALF-ELVES
• Preferred Classes: Any

HALF-ORCS
• Preferred Classes: Any

HALFLINGS
• Preferred Classes: Rogue, Bard

HUTAAKANS
• Preferred Classes: Cleric (Pflarr)

LUPINS
• Preferred Classes: Ranger

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Re: Elves

Post by Giorgio » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:58 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote: Forest Elf
In general, elves prefer simple, comfortable clothes, especially in pastel blues and greens, and they enjoy simple yet elegant jewelry. Elves possess unearthly grace and fine features. Many humans and members of other races find them hauntingly beautiful.

Elves live naturally to between 400 and 600 years old. A very few have reached over 800 years old; and more have died of disease or violent deaths before their 500th birthday. They take about 20 years to grow to full size, and then have a free-spirited “adolescence” of about 80 years. It is during this time that an elf chooses whether to remain in the forests of her birth or follow the wandering path of the adventurer.
Roger,

I am working on my PF Mystara elves notes and I just noticed that the two paragraphs above work better in the general elf description (as they can apply to all the elven sub-groups) and not just in the Forest Elf description.

In my own work I am moving the paragraphs accordingly.
George

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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Giorgio » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:32 pm

I am working on the Pathfinder Mystara elven racial traits and I have a question.

There are previous instances in D&D where the elven races have variance in their ability scores.

The standard PF elf has:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but their form is frail.

Some elven sub-races have the INT and CON ability scores reversed. These are the elves that are more oriented to a more nomadic /outdoor /living in the wild lifestyle at the expense of more formal education found in living in settled society. Would any of the following elven groups fall into that category?

Forest elves
Belcadiz elves
Wood elves
Shadowelves
Water elves
Shiye Elves
Sea elves
Dark elves

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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:14 pm

Giorgio wrote:Have two questions with regards to your races and their favored classes. The first is for D&D 3.5, and the second is for D&D 3.75 (AKA Pathfinder RPG)

D&D 3.5:
In my initial reading of your classes I noticed that the great majority of the races don’t have any entry as to their favored class. For ease of reference it would be useful if they all had their favored class in their description (even though you can just reference Chapter 2 of the PHB 3.5)

It makes it easier for new players to read ALL the race entries at once, and not have to be going threw a book (or having to have a computer with the online SRD) just to look up missing information.
<snip>
The description of the different classes state "this class is exactly like XXX in the PHB except as follows:"
Whenever the Favored class is not different from the standard, that information was not duplicated. Players will have to go back to the PHB regardless of whether or not Favored Class is included for all the other details... unless I reproduce the entire entry. I won't do that, if for no other reason than this is a setting book, not a rule book. The only rules being included are new ones which do not appear elsewhere.
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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:16 pm

Giorgio wrote:Some elven sub-races have the INT and CON ability scores reversed. These are the elves that are more oriented to a more nomadic /outdoor /living in the wild lifestyle at the expense of more formal education found in living in settled society. Would any of the following elven groups fall into that category?
The closest equivelant to the Wild Elf subrace, presented in MM1, is the Wood Elves.
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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by vgeisz » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:55 pm

Wilhelm wrote:BTW, is there any chance of having lupin and rakasta breeds for 3e as well, Gawain? :)
I did myself an attemp of doing so, but I'm not so sure how well (un?)balanced it is
http://www.pandius.com/lupnbred.html
I will look further into this and see what roger and I can decide to do with this. I would like to see the different breeds done but what cannon material is there on the differing breeds of lupin and/or rakasta?
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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:58 pm

vgeisz wrote:
Wilhelm wrote:BTW, is there any chance of having lupin and rakasta breeds for 3e as well, Gawain? :)
I did myself an attemp of doing so, but I'm not so sure how well (un?)balanced it is
http://www.pandius.com/lupnbred.html
I will look further into this and see what roger and I can decide to do with this. I would like to see the different breeds done but what cannon material is there on the differing breeds of lupin and/or rakasta?
Vern
I know there was a Dragon Magazine article concerning this. Rather detailed. Can't recall off hand which issue. I *think* the article was written for BECMI, connected to VotPA, but I'm not 100% sure.

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Re: [Characters] Races

Post by vgeisz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:38 am

dragon 237 found it and downloaded it will report latere
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