[Characters] Races

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Anthro races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:20 am

These are two seperate sidebars

Rakastan Natural Weapons
Weapon | Cost | Dam | Crit | Wt | Type
Bite Attack | — | 1d4 | x2 | — | Piercing
Front Claws | — | 1d2 | 19-20/x2 | — | Slashing
Rear Claws | — | 1d3 | x3 | — | Slashing
War Claws | 3 gp | 1d4 | 19-20x2 | ½lb | Slashing
Does anyone know how to make a table in these forums?

Rakastas, Lupins & Invisible Creatures
A rakasta or lupin character automatically gets a Spot check (with the bonus) when an invisible creature approaches within 10 feet and during every round the invisible being remains that close. He does not automatically know where the invisible creature is, just that it is close by; locating it still requires other clues. They can also use this ability to detect the presence of ethereal creatures, such as ghosts, phase spiders, or someone wearing plate mail of etherealness. They recognize the difference between things ethereal and those simply invisible but gain no special attack or defense capabilities against ethereal beings.
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:23 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:
Havard wrote:I like your take on Half-Elves. Half-Orcs however are well documented in the Darokin gazetteer.
How well documented? I don't have my copy handy, but I don't recall any specific examples. Could you point me to some?
Page 27, under the entry Orcs has some descriptions of children of Orc and Human parentage, "or so called 'half-Orcs'". They are somehow tolerated in human society, but are usualy employed as manual labour and are at the very bottom of the Darokin social ladder.

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:27 am

Havard wrote:Yikes, really? I've been way confused about this then. I always assumed the Wendar, Vyalia and Verdier elves had nothing to do with Ilsundal, and made their way to the Known World at an earlier stage. I mean they were already in Thyatis when Mealiden started his migration. There's something not right here.
Specific references only mention the Feadil as staying behind, but the xenophobic mystery of the Feadil, Wendar, and Vyalia are too similar to be ignored. I chose to lump them together because of this.
Oh, and if everyone went with Ilsundal to the Sylvan Realm, the name Ilsundal elves, coined by me IIRC is not really appropriate as an alias for the Forest Elves. How about Rainbow Elves? :)
Really? I thought it was Andrew. Unless I'm mistaken, I took that line from Twilight of Dawn. I left it the way it was, if for no other reason than Illsundal was the inspiration for the second migration. IIRC, Mealiden led that second wave under Illsundal's persuasion.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'll have to double-check my timelines.

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:37 am

Havard wrote:Page 27, under the entry Orcs has some descriptions of children of Orc and Human parentage, "or so called 'half-Orcs'". They are somehow tolerated in human society, but are usualy employed as manual labour and are at the very bottom of the Darokin social ladder.
Now you go make me run all the way to the other side of the house to look it up... Damn you! (Emphasis in the following quote is mine.)
Gaz 11, pg 27, column3 wrote:Just like those of mixed human and elvish stock tend to favor one of their parents much more strongly than the other so to do these "half-orcs".
Those children that resemble their orc parent will likely be treated as if they were severely deformed. Children who take after their human parent may find a place in society. As a rule, they are employed as manual laborers (many are indentured), and are at the very bottom of the Darokin social ladder. They are not trusted, constantly watched when in public, and generally abused by anyone who thinks they can get away with it. It’s not a particularly fulfilling life, true, but given the history of Darokin’s relationship with the orcish race, the humans’ reaction is, perhaps, understandable.
This sounds to me like a re-hash of the Gaz5 topic on the same issue, except they left the male/female "rule" out.

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:45 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:Specific references only mention the Feadil as staying behind, but the xenophobic mystery of the Feadil, Wendar, and Vyalia are too similar to be ignored. I chose to lump them together because of this.
You are correct about the Feadil. From what I understand the Wendar, Vyalia and Verdier were never part of Ilsundal's or Mealiden's migrations however and had already settled in the Known World by the time Mealiden's elves arrived. It is possible they arrived on on Brun as early as the Age of Blackmoor. Some fan based timelines have the Vyalia/Verdier as a group splitting off from Ilsundal's migration before they leave Davania, crossing by the Serpen't Peninsula and ending up in the Known World. Personally I would toss the Feadil in with the Forest elves and leave the others in the second group. However, if you loose the Feadil you would have to find a new name for them since the remaining clans were never in the Sylvan Realm. Woodelves seems more appropriate.
Really? I thought it was Andrew. Unless I'm mistaken, I took that line from Twilight of Dawn. I left it the way it was, if for no other reason than Illsundal was the inspiration for the second migration. IIRC, Mealiden led that second wave under Illsundal's persuasion.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'll have to double-check my timelines.
I might be wrong about who came up with the term. Mealiden was indeed inspired by Ilsundal when he lead the second migration.

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:49 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:This sounds to me like a re-hash of the Gaz5 topic on the same issue, except they left the male/female "rule" out.
It could be read that way I suppose. However, the big difference is that there is no myth about "True Half-Orcs", which IMO is the main argument for stating that there are no half-elves in the Known World. Orcs of Thar also includes examples of mixes between humanoid races. One easy way out of this, I suppose, is simply leaving that reference out and letting each DM do as he decides...

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:58 am

Okay. A bit of quick research on the Vaults (several sources which basically coincide) and I've come up with the non-Sylvan Realm elves either migrating concurrently with Illsundal and ending up in the KW, or (Verider, specifically) beginning with Illsundal and splitting off before reaching the Sylvan Realm.

Although I like the connotations of the term "Sylvan Elves", it seems that you are correct. I can't rename the Forest elves, as that is a matter of canon fact, but the Sylvans could be renamed. Wood Elf does seem like the logical choice. In fact, their statistics were derived from the Wood Elf subrace in the MM. The above posts have been changed.

On the half-orc topic, I'm willing to reconsider my stance (especially since XL1 has a half-orc assassin) but being silent on the issue is not an option. I have to include a half-orc entry. Any suggestions? Possibly paraphrasing that clip from Gaz11?

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Elves, Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gecko » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:11 am

oh wow, I wish I had more time at the moment to follow this closer and contribute more.

Have you changed some of your elf terminology since the previews you posted long ago at the MMB? I kept notes on how my take differed from yours but they don't seem to match up anymore. I had approached it from more of a rules and culture groupsings since I was aiming for a players guide type document, But I like your historical origin groupings approach for a more DM's type version.

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:53 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:Okay. A bit of quick research on the Vaults (several sources which basically coincide) and I've come up with the non-Sylvan Realm elves either migrating concurrently with Illsundal and ending up in the KW, or (Verider, specifically) beginning with Illsundal and splitting off before reaching the Sylvan Realm.

Although I like the connotations of the term "Sylvan Elves", it seems that you are correct. I can't rename the Forest elves, as that is a matter of canon fact, but the Sylvans could be renamed. Wood Elf does seem like the logical choice. In fact, their statistics were derived from the Wood Elf subrace in the MM. The above posts have been changed.
Okay, that sounds good. :)
On the half-orc topic, I'm willing to reconsider my stance (especially since XL1 has a half-orc assassin) but being silent on the issue is not an option. I have to include a half-orc entry. Any suggestions? Possibly paraphrasing that clip from Gaz11?
Using the Gaz11 clip makes sense to me.

Hope I don't seem too negative in these posts. You are doing a great job Roger! :)

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Re: Elves, Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:17 pm

Gecko wrote:Have you changed some of your elf terminology since the previews you posted long ago at the MMB?
Yes. Thanks to feedback from Havard, I've removed Feadil from the Sylvan Elf subrace (they now belong with the rest of the Alfheimers under Forest Elf) and changed the term "Sylvan" elf to "Wood" elf, since this group of elves never actually made it to the Sylvan Realm durign the Illsundal migration.
Havard wrote:Using the Gaz11 clip makes sense to me.
Okay, I'll do that. I'll edit the above post later today when I get home from work.
Havard wrote:Hope I don't seem too negative in these posts.
No, not too negative. This is exactly the kind of feedback I need... something engaging and stimulating--make me think about WHY I did what I did... checking for continuity errors without being a pissy little sibling about it "but I don't like that, I want to do it this way!"...

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:20 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:There are 4 main migratory groups here:
1- The Belcadiz and Shadowelves were Blackmoorian colonists. Belcadiz emerged in Glantri after the GRoF settled, the Shattenalfen emerged in the broken lands and, beliveing the entire world was like this, and returned underground.
Actually, the Belcadiz are from the second group of migrationists, having left Grunland some 300 years after Ilsundal's group. This is mentioned in Gaz5, and the second group is further mentioned in the HW boxed set (though the Belcadiz are not referenced in that set).
2 - All others listed here travelled with Illsundal from Grunalf to the Sylvan Realm. The Forest Elves left the Sylvan Realm with Mealiden carrying the Trees of Life using the Rainbow Bridge. Callarii and Shiye Lawr began this second migration but left the path to settle elsewhere.
Again, note the two separate migrations, which later joined up somewhere around the Konumtali Savannah (north of the Serpent Peninsula). It is from that group that the Verdier and Meditor split off. The Vyalia origins are unknown, but presumably related to the Verdier (elves who remained on the mainland rather than join their Meditor cousins?). The Callarii origins have yet to be disclosed, but I'd presume they were of Alfheim origins myself.

The Shiye-Lawr, IIRC, actually split off from the Sylvan Realm elves.
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:21 pm

Havard wrote:Page 27, under the entry Orcs has some descriptions of children of Orc and Human parentage, "or so called 'half-Orcs'". They are somehow tolerated in human society, but are usualy employed as manual labour and are at the very bottom of the Darokin social ladder.
Don't forget that Angus McGregor (Gaz10) is of orc/human parentage, and seems to bear the physical deformities/appearance to support that he is a half-orc.
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:25 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote: The Callarii origins have yet to be disclosed, but I'd presume they were of Alfheim origins myself.
I am pretty sure this is canon. The Callarii have a Tree of Life from Mealiden's migration.
The Shiye-Lawr, IIRC, actually split off from the Sylvan Realm elves.
The Shiye-Lawr is one of the Shyie clans. These were from the Sylvan realm, but at some point, perhaps during Mealiden's migration, split off to follow Eiryndul and settled in Alphatia and Norwold.


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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:28 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:Although I like the connotations of the term "Sylvan Elves", it seems that you are correct. I can't rename the Forest elves, as that is a matter of canon fact, but the Sylvans could be renamed.
I'd advise you to check Gaz9: The Minrothad Guilds for suggestions. I can't recall (and am too lazy to check right now), but in the early history portion, IIRC, it refers to different groups of elves- the Alfasser, etc. Those were terms that I decided to use to refer to the elves in their own languages at one point; I just don't recall what the terms were at the moment.
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Re: Anthro races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:32 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:These are two seperate sidebars

Rakastan Natural Weapons
Rear Claws | — | 1d3 | x3 | — | Slashing
YMMV, but I always found the Red Steel additions of a rear claw attack to the rakasta to be somewhat nonsensical, given their anatomy.

It works all right if you're a quadruped, and can bring those rear legs to bear (and presuming you're actually leaping onto a foe), but for a biped it just seems ridiculous. For one thing, it presumes that rakasta don't wear footgear (not a big deal, I suppose), for another, it would mean that they would be bringing their full hundred plus pound weight to bear on a foe- they'd have to be tackling foes to the ground to rake.

If you do decide to go with the rear claw thing, it would probably be best to note it as a special attack (like a claw as part of a Trip attack).

I think that designers started to get far too "special ability" happy with the Rakasta later in their development (starting with Bruce, admittedly, but not ending there).
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Re: Anthro races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:05 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:YMMV, but I always found the Red Steel additions of a rear claw attack to the rakasta to be somewhat nonsensical, given their anatomy.
<snip>
I think that designers started to get far too "special ability" happy with the Rakasta later in their development (starting with Bruce, admittedly, but not ending there).
Good point. I'll consider it. Does anyone else have an opinion?

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:22 pm

Regarding discussions on elven migration:
The more you guys talk, the more my memory is jostled. I do seem to remember that pretty much everything you've brought up being correct.

The Callarii and Shiye were indeed split from Mealiden's Rainbow Bridge migration.
I'll have to double-check the Belcadiz thing--but I thought their origins were ambiguous, causing the discussions at the old boards about their origins.
In any case, none of those should actually change the write-ups.

I'll take a look at Gaz 8 for optional Sylvan/Wood elf names...

Havard's remarks about half-orcs plus your reminder of Angus (and my own rememberance of the H-O in XL1) certainly do seem to point to a definitive canon placement of H-Os in the KW... I'll take some time to think about it and come up with a change. Probably by mid-week, but no promises.

But since I've got you here... Andrew, whats the overall B/G for your IoD dwarves? I know they're not canon, but, as I've stated in teh Overview thread, fanon material that don't conflict with canon can potentially be included. Your Twilights of Dawn information is the perfect example of something I'd like to add--but I need more info.

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Re: Anthro races

Post by Hugin » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:44 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:Good point. I'll consider it. Does anyone else have an opinion?

Roger
Got to agree with Andrew on this one. Rear claw attacks just doesn't sit right with my view of Rakasta, be that physically or culturally.

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:47 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:I'll have to double-check the Belcadiz thing--but I thought their origins were ambiguous, causing the discussions at the old boards about their origins.
I think the ambiguity comes more from their distinct culture than from any canon issues of their origins, but theirs is somewhat ill-defined. Gaz5 comes the closest to pinning them down, from my research.
But since I've got you here... Andrew, whats the overall B/G for your IoD dwarves? I know they're not canon, but, as I've stated in teh Overview thread, fanon material that don't conflict with canon can potentially be included. Your Twilights of Dawn information is the perfect example of something I'd like to add--but I need more info.
Sure. I'm trying to recall if I've put anything down or not. (Checking the Vaults...)

There's this history, a brief background. It's light on specific dates and such (which I've never really pinned down), but I pretty much traced the first dwarves back to the building of the fortress of Redstone, in AC 1 or thereabouts, with a couple of other migrations coming in afterwards. Those migrations were in the vein of the Glantrian and Shires "Gold Rush!" dwarves, with a large number of engineers and weaponsmiths capitalizing on the ongoing wars between Thyatis/Alphatia/Thothia by supplying both sides with weapons/armor/siege equipment/fortifications. They sort of diverged around that point.

Giulio Caroletti's later history of the Filwarves (Birth) doesn't greatly conflict with anything I came up with (I provided the general background he built on there), and could certainly be used as well.
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:59 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:The Callarii and Shiye were indeed split from Mealiden's Rainbow Bridge migration.
I'll have to double-check the Belcadiz thing--but I thought their origins were ambiguous, causing the discussions at the old boards about their origins.
In any case, none of those should actually change the write-ups.
For the record, the Callarii should still belong in the Forest Elf category. They parted accompanied Mealiden all the way to the Known World and parted on friendly terms with the elves who moved onto Alfheim. The Shyie elves were more problematic and broke with Mealiden and Ilsundal's philosophies, something the Callarii never did.

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:32 pm

Havard wrote:For the record, the Callarii should still belong in the Forest Elf category. They parted accompanied Mealiden all the way to the Known World and parted on friendly terms with the elves who moved onto Alfheim. The Shyie elves were more problematic and broke with Mealiden and Ilsundal's philosophies, something the Callarii never did.
They are.
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Havard » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:35 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:
Havard wrote:For the record, the Callarii should still belong in the Forest Elf category. They parted accompanied Mealiden all the way to the Known World and parted on friendly terms with the elves who moved onto Alfheim. The Shyie elves were more problematic and broke with Mealiden and Ilsundal's philosophies, something the Callarii never did.
They are.
Yeah, I know. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think we wanted you to change that :)

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by JoeNotCharles » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:57 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:especially since XL1 has a half-orc assassin
Wait, what? I don't remember that!

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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Gawain_VIII » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:13 pm

JoeNotCharles wrote:
Gawain_VIII wrote:especially since XL1 has a half-orc assassin
Wait, what? I don't remember that!
Yup, Zarak, Evil Half-orc Assassin (5th level cutpurse)... He's in the prerolled characters pg. 18. IIRC he was also duplicated in AC1 in the Special Characters section.

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Cthulhudrew
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Re: [M3e-Characters] Races

Post by Cthulhudrew » Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:40 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:Yup, Zarak, Evil Half-orc Assassin (5th level cutpurse)... He's in the prerolled characters pg. 18. IIRC he was also duplicated in AC1 in the Special Characters section.
The other way around (AC1 came out before XL-1), but yeah. And I can't believe I'd forgotten about him! (Though, technically, he was never canonically placed in Mystara per se.)
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