OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

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Havard
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OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:56 pm

What elements from OD&D were never revisited again in later versions of the classic line?

Mind Flayers
Sahuagin
Hit Locations (a version later appeared in DotE IIRC?)
Psionics

What else?

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Re: OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:36 pm

I thought I remembered there being a critical hit system in DotE as well, but on review, it isn't in there. There is an alternative version of AC (the AV, or Armor Value, rules), but no critical hit/hit location system. I may be thinking of the one introduced in the Fighters Handbook for 2E instead (which also featured a sort of alternative to AC, or at least a piecemeal AC system).

I'd argue that the Sahuagin were revisited in B/X/BECMI in the form of the Shark-kin (from AC9 and later products), which are really just the sahuagin with the numbers filed off.

Multiclassing and Dual-classing are rules elements that weren't revisited (instead folded directly into classes in some instances- ie, the Elf).
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Re: OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by Khedrac » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:19 am

Class/Race separation springs to mind, though I will admit that I don't know how much of the thing that was in OD&D.

I know that looking at the non-magic armor in AD&D and D&D had an extra type of armor in AD&D (hence AC2 was plate + shield for both, but unarmored was AC10 in AD&D and AC9 in D&D) - what I don't know was which patter OD&D followed...
"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might just be a crow".

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Re: OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by Havard » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:10 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:I thought I remembered there being a critical hit system in DotE as well, but on review, it isn't in there. There is an alternative version of AC (the AV, or Armor Value, rules), but no critical hit/hit location system. I may be thinking of the one introduced in the Fighters Handbook for 2E instead (which also featured a sort of alternative to AC, or at least a piecemeal AC system).
Yes, you are right. Gaz10 also added a piecemeal AC system, but that too was not a Hit Location system.
I'd argue that the Sahuagin were revisited in B/X/BECMI in the form of the Shark-kin (from AC9 and later products), which are really just the sahuagin with the numbers filed off.
Agreed.
Multiclassing and Dual-classing are rules elements that weren't revisited (instead folded directly into classes in some instances- ie, the Elf).
Khedrac wrote:Class/Race separation springs to mind, though I will admit that I don't know how much of the thing that was in OD&D.
I think the class/race system in BECMI is not a long step away from the way things worked in Core OD&D. Race/Class separation only existed in theory in OD&D. Dwarves and Halflings always had to be fighters and Elves combined the abilities of Fightes and Magic Users in a way that was really poorly explained in OD&D. The Elf Class in B/X & BECMI seems to be something that some DM's could have house ruled to make sense of how the OD&D Elf was supposed to work. Supplement I: Greyhawk did change this, allowing for various races to select the Thief Class, however.
Khedrac wrote:I know that looking at the non-magic armor in AD&D and D&D had an extra type of armor in AD&D (hence AC2 was plate + shield for both, but unarmored was AC10 in AD&D and AC9 in D&D) - what I don't know was which patter OD&D followed...
OD&D uses AC9 for unarmored characters just like the rest of the classic line.

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Re: OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by pauldupuis » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:17 pm

So, this is not exactly from the brown or white box OD&D, but I was compiling a set of "lost magics" from earlier editions of D&D vs BECMI and specifically the Rules Cyclopedia. All of the spells in OD&D V1 Men and Magic and Supplement III Eldritch Wizardry appear to have be included in the RC, at least by name, if the descriptions vary a bit here and there. However in the Blue D&D Book By Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, Edited by Eric Holmes © 1974, 1977 TACTICAL STUDIES RULES, 2nd PRINTING,JANUARY 1978 there are a number of spells not included in BECMI/RC (see below).

I was collecting these spells and others (see further below) for a series of adventures for a Magic User PC (and companions) from Karameikos who believes that the list of spells taught is woefully incomplete and once upon a time, Magic must have been more consistent and robust and is seeking to find ancient magics and spell unknown to other mages.

In any case, while incomplete and not strictly OD&D, I have posted it in case it is of help to someone.

D&D Blue Book: MAGIC-USER SPELLS
First Level Spells:
Dancing Lights (Lost)
Enlargements (Lost)
Tenser's Floating Disc (RC 'Floating Disc' - it's origins have been lost)
Second Level Spells:
Audible Glamer (Lost)
Magic Mouth (Lost)
Pyrotechnics (Lost)
Ray of Enfeeblement (Lost) (in effect a reverse of Strength, also a lost spell)
Strength (Lost)
Third Level Spells:
Clairaudience (Lost)
Explosive Runes (Lost)
Monster Summoning I (Lost)
Rope Trick (Lost)
Suggestion (Lost)

I continued looking for "Lost Magics" from other BECMI/RC predecessors:
Moldvay Blue Expert set (1st Expert rules, 3-ring binder version)
Part Water Range: 120' (p18), Duration: 6 turns, This spell creates a path through a body of water, enabling creatures to walk on the bottom. The path will be up to 120, long and 10' wide. The spell may be ended at any time by the caster before the duration is over.

And then I started combing through Modules in the B,X,C,M,I series for more "Lost" Spells (Modules)
B1 In Search of the Unknown (Caves of Quasqueton)
Magic Mouth (p8) (r) (S: Original Blue Book)
"Unnamed Spell" (p23) (item) The secret exit is but a one-way access, and allows only egress from the stronghold, never entrance. There is no way to trigger the door from the outside, and even if this were possible, a permanent magic spell upon the exit totally prevents movement into the complex via the opening. [Some sort of "Barrier" spell or "Protection?"]
B2 Keep on the Borderland (Caves of Chaos)
Direction Confusion (p20) (r) (S:Unknown) After 30’ past the cave mouth, a spell of direction confusion (a special spell) will begin to function, so start to misdirect them by naming incorrect directions, i.e. southeast instead of northeast, east instead of west, etc. Don’t worry about calling the same passage as a different direction should they travel over the same route twice - that’s the effect of the magic on them. You may wish to allow the mapping character a secret saving throw every couple of turns, a 19 or 20 indicating that the effect has been thrown off.)
B1-9 "unnamed spell" (p20) (S:Unknown) Evil spells prevent anyone native to Tuma (like Lirdrium Arkayz) from entering The Rock; this is the reason Arkayz was forced to hire the party [NOTE: This is from B5 Horror on the Hill]
[NOTE: This and the spell in B1, suggests a barrier spell of some sort that allows passage only as specificed by the castor (i.e. only in one direction or only people not of Tuma may pass]
Mesmorize (p45) (S:"Suggestion" from the Blue book?) Shapeless forms of purple, yellow and grcen will dance and sway on the western wall, and if anyone looks at them for more than a moment, they must save vs. Spells or be mesmerized into chanting a hymn to chaotic evil.

X2 Castle Amber (p14) references the "lost" Strength spell from the Blue D&D Book
X2 Castle Amber (p27) references "dispel illusions" a simpler form of Dispel Magic (3rd). Perhaps a reverse of Phantasmal Force?
X3 Curse of Xanathon (p26) "Unknown" spell is used to place life force in a gem [NOTE" Supports Juliet's theories on power transference and the use of gems (or pyramids or etc.) to store power]

All B and X modules through X12 checked. Starting Accessories and other modules:

AC3 Dragon Tiles I - The Kidnapping Of Princess Arelina (p4) 1st level MU spell: burning hands (p4) 2nd level Clerical spiritual hammer
Knights of Newt (p7) "know language" - understand spoken languages

NOTE: Work in Progress/Incomplete.

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Re: OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by pauldupuis » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:37 pm

When I said in the above post that "All of the spells in OD&D V1 Men and Magic and Supplement III Eldritch Wizardry appear to have be included in the RC, at least by name, if the descriptions vary a bit here and there." I was mistaken. I just took a second look and there are a number of Druid spells in Supplement III of OD&D not in the RC. Sometime my eyes play tricks on me.

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Re: OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by Hugin » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:02 pm

Fantastic research, pauldupuis!

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Re: OD&D stuff not revisited in B/X & BECMI

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:17 pm

This is a pretty impressive list! I'll double check my spell list tomorrow when I get to work ("complete" spell list that I've been slowly compiling over the last couple years; the most recent version is saved to my work desktop. I really need to copy it to my flash drive...) I'll see if I can find any others.
pauldupuis wrote:X2 Castle Amber (p27) references "dispel illusions" a simpler form of Dispel Magic (3rd). Perhaps a reverse of Phantasmal Force?
This one, I think, can be chalked up to a typo or mistake. The Sollux in later versions (AC9 forward) is immune to illusions, such as those cast by their eternal foes, the Efreeti. That makes a lot more sense (plus, I don't see what possible benefit it would be to anyone to be immune to dispelled illusions, unless the intent of the spell was to make those it is cast upon unable to create illusions. Which still wouldn't make sense for a Sollux, since that is not one of their abilities.)
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