[Hawkmoon] Opinions?

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Havard
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[Hawkmoon] Opinions?

Post by Havard » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:45 pm

Dorian Hawkmoon is another of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion characters, just like Elric, Corum and Erekosë. Hawkmoon exists in the world of Tragic Europe.

As mentioned in the List of RuneQuest Settings, two RPG's are set in the world of Hawkmoon: The 2007 RuneQuest Hawkmoon seemed to get some support from Mongoose with supplements like Granbretan, Castle Brass and the Secrets of Tragic Europe.

See also this list of all the Elric and Eternal Champions RPGs.

Any thoughts on this setting? Is this something you would consider running or playing in?



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Re: [Hawkmoon] Opinions?

Post by Big Mac » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:29 pm

Havard wrote:Any thoughts on this setting? Is this something you would consider running or playing in?
I've never heard of this. (I'm not very clued up on RuneQuest. :oops: )

The RPG Net review you linked to said this was based on The History of the Runestaff books by Michael Moorcock (which are part of "the Tragic Millennium"). I don't know much of Michael Moorcock's work. Is there a lot of non-Hawkmoon stuff that somehow links onto this? Do the other books give you different parts of the same "future fantasy Earth"? Or are they set in different time periods?
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Re: [Hawkmoon] Opinions?

Post by Havard » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:11 pm

Big Mac wrote:I've never heard of this. (I'm not very clued up on RuneQuest. :oops: )

Note that the first Hawkmoon RPG was not a proper RuneQuest RPG, but another variant of the BRP system, though the Mongoose Games version of Hawkmoon was identified as a RuneQuest Setting.
The RPG Net review you linked to said this was based on The History of the Runestaff books by Michael Moorcock (which are part of "the Tragic Millennium"). I don't know much of Michael Moorcock's work. Is there a lot of non-Hawkmoon stuff that somehow links onto this? Do the other books give you different parts of the same "future fantasy Earth"? Or are they set in different time periods?
I believe all of the books with Dorian Hawkmoon are set in the same era. The character was introduced in the History of the Runestaff series and returned later in the Chronicles of Castle Brass Trilogy which is more closely connected to the overall Eternal Champion Multiverse of Michael Moorcock.

I haven't ready any of the books featuring Dorian Hawkmoon so I don't know much more about it, though it would be interesting if it could be combined with the other RPGs based on the Eternal Champions Multiverse.

Wikipedia has the following on the setting:
Wikipedia wrote:Granbretan
Granbretan is a far-future version of Great Britain, ruled by the immortal King-Emperor Huon, who dwells in a fluid-filled sphere in Londra, its capital. The inhabitants of Granbretan are renowned for their cruelty, and for their practice of wearing masks at all times.

The geopolitical situation depicted is in fact a curious reversal of that in the Second World War. The future Britain is a brutal empire, bent on the total conquest of Europe, its armies (pouring across a huge bridge spanning the Channel) overwhelming country after country and committing terrible atrocities wherever they come. Conversely, the protagonist Dorian Hawkmoon is a German (though having an English name), originally from Köln, who is exiled by Granbretan's brutal conquest of his homeland but who fights on and rallies the Europeans' resistance to the conquerors.
Apprently this is also the future of Elric's Melibone and Dorian Hawkmoon confronts the demon of Elric's blade towards the end of the second trilogy.


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Re: [Hawkmoon] Opinions?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:18 pm

Almost all of Michael Moorcock's books (save for some of his "literary" ones, and even those share connections with his fantasy and science fiction novels) are interconnected since they mostly star different incarnations of the same character, endlessly reincarnating throughout different times and planes of existence, but the various worlds and ages the Eternal Champion finds himself in are very different from each other.

I've read the first three Hawkmoon novels (as an omnibus published by White Wolf, titled simply Hawkmoon) and I've read The Quest for Tanelorn, the third and final novel in the Chronicles of Castle Brass series (which is the only one I've found in used bookstores). The Quest for Tanelorn served as a climax for the entire Eternal Champion cycle (incorporating events seen from other points of view in his Elric and Corum series), though he's written many Eternal Champion novels since then.

Hawkmoon's Earth may technically be the future of Elric's Earth because Elric's Earth is destroyed and reborn as own worldat the end of the novel Stormbringer and Hawkmoon's Earth is a future version of our world. But it functions effectively as a separate plane of existence, since Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Erekosë are sometimes able to meet one another through planar travel (only during rare planar conjunctions), as opposed to time travel. I think the distinction is just a function of genre; Moorcock generally, especially in his classic novels of the 1960s-1970s, avoided mixing genres, so his sword and sorcery characters used various kinds of magical planar travel to move from world to world, while time travel was reserved for his science fiction novels (Behold the Man, Breakfast in the Ruins, the Dancers at the End of Time series, etc.). There was a humorous short story in which Elric interacted with the time travelers of Dancers at the End of Time, but Moorcock dismissed that as a "piss-take," by which I think he meant a noncanonical parody.

If you accept the timeline in Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen book The Black Dossier, Elric's homeland of Melniboné is actually prehistoric Britain (which doesn't work with the maps in the Chaosium RPG material, where the world is shaped very differently, but works well as a way to integrate Melniboné with historical Earth). If that's the case, then the Empire of Granbretan in the Hawkmoon novels is actually built over what was Melniboné in a previous age.

Though technically part of the sword and sorcery genre, Hawkmoon's world was distinct in that it featured elements of technology; I remember a lot of technological ornithopters. Also, Huon was a really cool villain.

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Re: [Hawkmoon] Opinions?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:12 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Almost all of Michael Moorcock's books (save for some of his "literary" ones, and even those share connections with his fantasy and science fiction novels) are interconnected since they mostly star different incarnations of the same character, endlessly reincarnating throughout different times and planes of existence, but the various worlds and ages the Eternal Champion finds himself in are very different from each other.
It seems like, if you had a set of RPG rules that could do the sort of thing that d20 Future and d20 Past could do, you could recycle the same player characters in a single campaign that used multiple Michael Moorcock worlds.

I wonder if we would want to aim towards one day having a single forum that covers all the connected campaign settings. :?
ripvanwormer wrote:I've read the first three Hawkmoon novels (as an omnibus published by White Wolf, titled simply Hawkmoon) and I've read The Quest for Tanelorn, the third and final novel in the Chronicles of Castle Brass series (which is the only one I've found in used bookstores). The Quest for Tanelorn served as a climax for the entire Eternal Champion cycle (incorporating events seen from other points of view in his Elric and Corum series), though he's written many Eternal Champion novels since then.
I didn't realise that White Wolf published novels. It looks like I would really need to read some of these novels to properly get the feel of Hawkmoon.
ripvanwormer wrote:Hawkmoon's Earth may technically be the future of Elric's Earth because Elric's Earth is destroyed and reborn as own worldat the end of the novel Stormbringer and Hawkmoon's Earth is a future version of our world. But it functions effectively as a separate plane of existence, since Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Erekosë are sometimes able to meet one another through planar travel (only during rare planar conjunctions), as opposed to time travel. I think the distinction is just a function of genre; Moorcock generally, especially in his classic novels of the 1960s-1970s, avoided mixing genres, so his sword and sorcery characters used various kinds of magical planar travel to move from world to world, while time travel was reserved for his science fiction novels (Behold the Man, Breakfast in the Ruins, the Dancers at the End of Time series, etc.). There was a humorous short story in which Elric interacted with the time travelers of Dancers at the End of Time, but Moorcock dismissed that as a "piss-take," by which I think he meant a noncanonical parody.
Does that mean that all the fantasy settings connect and all the science fiction settings connect, but (aside from Dancers at the End of Time) there is never a connection between them all?
ripvanwormer wrote:If you accept the timeline in Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen book The Black Dossier, Elric's homeland of Melniboné is actually prehistoric Britain (which doesn't work with the maps in the Chaosium RPG material, where the world is shaped very differently, but works well as a way to integrate Melniboné with historical Earth). If that's the case, then the Empire of Granbretan in the Hawkmoon novels is actually built over what was Melniboné in a previous age.
I guess that, with all the RPG adaptations, the designers have to add in some details that the novelist was not going to reveal. How much of a veto has Michael Moorcock had on the RPG process?
ripvanwormer wrote:Though technically part of the sword and sorcery genre, Hawkmoon's world was distinct in that it featured elements of technology; I remember a lot of technological ornithopters. Also, Huon was a really cool villain.
So fantasy technology?

Modern D&D does seem to assume that technology and magic are mutually exclusive, but I don't think that needs to be the case.
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Re: [Hawkmoon] Opinions?

Post by Dragon Turtle » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:46 pm

Discussion of Runequest vs. HeroQuest split off into a separate topic here.

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Re: [Hawkmoon] Opinions?

Post by Havard » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:10 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Almost all of Michael Moorcock's books (save for some of his "literary" ones, and even those share connections with his fantasy and science fiction novels) are interconnected since they mostly star different incarnations of the same character, endlessly reincarnating throughout different times and planes of existence, but the various worlds and ages the Eternal Champion finds himself in are very different from each other.

I've read the first three Hawkmoon novels (as an omnibus published by White Wolf, titled simply Hawkmoon) and I've read The Quest for Tanelorn, the third and final novel in the Chronicles of Castle Brass series (which is the only one I've found in used bookstores). The Quest for Tanelorn served as a climax for the entire Eternal Champion cycle (incorporating events seen from other points of view in his Elric and Corum series), though he's written many Eternal Champion novels since then.

Hawkmoon's Earth may technically be the future of Elric's Earth because Elric's Earth is destroyed and reborn as own worldat the end of the novel Stormbringer and Hawkmoon's Earth is a future version of our world. But it functions effectively as a separate plane of existence, since Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Erekosë are sometimes able to meet one another through planar travel (only during rare planar conjunctions), as opposed to time travel. I think the distinction is just a function of genre; Moorcock generally, especially in his classic novels of the 1960s-1970s, avoided mixing genres, so his sword and sorcery characters used various kinds of magical planar travel to move from world to world, while time travel was reserved for his science fiction novels (Behold the Man, Breakfast in the Ruins, the Dancers at the End of Time series, etc.). There was a humorous short story in which Elric interacted with the time travelers of Dancers at the End of Time, but Moorcock dismissed that as a "piss-take," by which I think he meant a noncanonical parody.
Thanks for bringing me up to date on this Rip! I wonder if any other Eternal Champion characters were considered for RPGs besides Elric, Hawkmoon and Corum? Does being an Eternal Champion come with any kinds of boons besides being fated to turn the balance between Law and Chaos?
If you accept the timeline in Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen book The Black Dossier, Elric's homeland of Melniboné is actually prehistoric Britain (which doesn't work with the maps in the Chaosium RPG material, where the world is shaped very differently, but works well as a way to integrate Melniboné with historical Earth). If that's the case, then the Empire of Granbretan in the Hawkmoon novels is actually built over what was Melniboné in a previous age.
I love this! I found this timeline which expands on what you are saying. How canonical is the the Chaosim map of the Young Kingdoms? In any case, I think the idea of having Melnibone and Tragic Milennium Earth be set in different time periods in the same geographical region is perfect. Could various Elric RPG material be useful in a Hawkmoon Campaign?

Though technically part of the sword and sorcery genre, Hawkmoon's world was distinct in that it featured elements of technology; I remember a lot of technological ornithopters. Also, Huon was a really cool villain.

Ornithopters are cool. Does this mean these books are set in the same universe as Frank Herbert's Dune? :ugeek: :ugeek: :P

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