[Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

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[Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

As per the name of this thread, has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

I heard about this mini-setting ages ago, but gave up playing D&D before it came out.

What is it like?

Are there any decent websites for it?

Is there a 3rd edition conversion (partial or complete) for it anywhere? If not, would it be fairly easy to convert?

Has anyone ever linked Council of Wyrms to another setting to create a "crossover campaign" (Spelljammer, Planescape, Mystara, Dragonlance)? If so, what did you link it to and how did it balance out?
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by BPIJonathan »

Big Mac wrote:As per the name of this thread, has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

I use to run it all the time back in the day. I have plans to run it again under either 3.x or a different system. The ideas are easily convertible. :-)
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

BPIJonathan wrote:I use to run it all the time back in the day. I have plans to run it again under either 3.x or a different system. The ideas are easily convertible. :-)
I've seen other people suggest that dragon PCs are not viable under the standard 3rd edition rules and that a Council of Wyrms game needs a GM to ignore standard dragon LA penalties in order for PCs to gain significant levels of dragon HD before hitting 20th level.

Do you think that is a valid problem with CoW, or could the concepts be transported to other game worlds and pitched against other PCs on a level playing field?
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by BPIJonathan »

Big Mac wrote:Do you think that is a valid problem with CoW, or could the concepts be transported to other game worlds and pitched against other PCs on a level playing field?

I ignore the way LA is doing anyway for all PCs and use a completely different system for my home games (I design using the standard system, but play it otherwise). Since CoW is designed so that all players are playing a dragon I believe that conventional LA can be completely ignored because as a general rule they PCs are on a nearly even playing field anyway. The setting was set up from the beginning so that all players either played a dragon or their henchman (I cant recall off the top of my head what this was called). The only PC that could exist with both parties was the half dragon.

So in general, I feel that as long as all the characters are nearly the same power level to start, then the ideas are easily transported system to system.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

BPIJonathan wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Do you think that is a valid problem with CoW, or could the concepts be transported to other game worlds and pitched against other PCs on a level playing field?

I ignore the way LA is doing anyway for all PCs and use a completely different system for my home games (I design using the standard system, but play it otherwise). Since CoW is designed so that all players are playing a dragon I believe that conventional LA can be completely ignored because as a general rule they PCs are on a nearly even playing field anyway. The setting was set up from the beginning so that all players either played a dragon or their henchman (I cant recall off the top of my head what this was called). The only PC that could exist with both parties was the half dragon.

So in general, I feel that as long as all the characters are nearly the same power level to start, then the ideas are easily transported system to system.
Thanks Jonathan. This is pretty much identical to what the other guy said, so it is obviously the way that CoW forces you to go.

I think I'd still like to get the LA and design a racial class that chops that up into several levels. The Thoradorian Minotaur racial class on page 175 of Races of Ansalon does this and it seems like you can start off as a 1st level character, but still end up paying the LA penalty in installements. I wouldn't personally mind playing in a 3e game that went from 1st to 30th level if it allowed for dragons and humanoids to play alongside each other.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by BPIJonathan »

Big Mac wrote:I wouldn't personally mind playing in a 3e game that went from 1st to 30th level if it allowed for dragons and humanoids to play alongside each other.
Personally if I were going to run a game that mixed the party and allowed Dragon and Humanioid PCs to be in the same group I would go with either Open Core or GURPS as my system of choice. Though, while I havent actually looked into it....True20 might be something that this could be done under as well.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

BPIJonathan wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I wouldn't personally mind playing in a 3e game that went from 1st to 30th level if it allowed for dragons and humanoids to play alongside each other.
Personally if I were going to run a game that mixed the party and allowed Dragon and Humanioid PCs to be in the same group I would go with either Open Core or GURPS as my system of choice. Though, while I havent actually looked into it....True20 might be something that this could be done under as well.
I figured that this sort of thing would be a bit clunky under 3rd edition. I haven't seen any race, other than dragons, that has different LA penalties at different levels. And D&D doesn't bother to list LAs for epic-power creatures, so if you want to take a dragon to ECL 30 you have to guess what to do.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by BPIJonathan »

Big Mac wrote:I figured that this sort of thing would be a bit clunky under 3rd edition.
Its only one of two campaign systems that if I were to run it with D&D I would use the 1/2e version of the rules. With some additional house rules, those systems work just perfect for it.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

BPIJonathan wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I figured that this sort of thing would be a bit clunky under 3rd edition.
Its only one of two campaign systems that if I were to run it with D&D I would use the 1/2e version of the rules. With some additional house rules, those systems work just perfect for it.
Well, I'm a stubbon so and so sometimes. So I'm determined to find a Council of Wyrms conversion to 3rd edition. (Plus I want to use Council of Wyrms in a 3rd edition Spelljammer campaign! :twisted: )

Having said that, I'm sure that Havard wants to make Council of Wyrms into a distant island on the Known World! :P

BTW: I will check out Open Core and GURPS sometime. They both sound great (and I've been hearing about GURPS for donkey's years), but I've never really got to play either of them.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by DaemonAngel »

Its been years since I've looks through it and never got a chance to do anything with it. I still have the box somewhere with all the stuff still in it.

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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by BlU_sKrEEm »

I can not believe I missed this thread. I have been a fan of the setting for quite a while, althopugh i have not playesd in the setting as much as i have others. The box set was perhaps the product TSR cam out with, not only was the setting fantastic, but the posters adorned my walls for years. CoW was a very interesting setting as it was usually more politically focused, and you were often playing multiple characters, which lead to a much different play style then most settings.

I've has some experience trying to play CoW 3rd ed, and i must say that it did not run as smoothly as 2nd ed games. We attempted to use the Draconomicon to try the conversion, but we spent so much time flipping through the book looking for rules the game fell apart. The CoW box set was much better organized and simply easier to play with 2nd ed rules. That said I think a RC Council of Wyrms could be fun, or a heavily modified 4th ed (skill challenges in particular could add to the setting.)

I usually play an Amethyst or Crystal Dragon (I love them gem dragons.)

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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

BlU_sKrEEm wrote:The box set was perhaps the product TSR cam out with, not only was the setting fantastic, but the posters adorned my walls for years.
Erm? Did you by any chance mean to type: "The box set was perhaps the best product TSR came out with..."? :?:
BlU_sKrEEm wrote:CoW was a very interesting setting as it was usually more politically focused, and you were often playing multiple characters, which lead to a much different play style then most settings.
That sounds interesting. Did you play all the characters together or use different characters in different game sessions?

Was this a house rule or part of the CoW rules?

If you didn't play characters together, did the out of play characters get any free XP to represent what they did when you were not playing them?
BlU_sKrEEm wrote:I've has some experience trying to play CoW 3rd ed, and i must say that it did not run as smoothly as 2nd ed games. We attempted to use the Draconomicon to try the conversion, but we spent so much time flipping through the book looking for rules the game fell apart. The CoW box set was much better organized and simply easier to play with 2nd ed rules. That said I think a RC Council of Wyrms could be fun, or a heavily modified 4th ed (skill challenges in particular could add to the setting.)
I've seen other people talking about converting CoW to 3rd editon and saying that it won't work very well. I'll have to get the CoW boxed set (I'd stopped playing D&D when it came out) because I'd love to see dragons become more accesible to 3rd edition games.

Someone (elsewhere) has highlighted the problem of 3e dragons having an excessively high ECL (when LA and HD are taken into account) but I wonder if non-dragon PCs could be given additional cohort NPCs (as if they had the Leadership feat) in order to get some sort of balance between their "bumped up" ECL and a dragon's ECL.

I find a lot of 3rd edition suffers from not being able to find a specific rule in a specific book. But then again 2nd edition also had the "what book was this rule in" problem. I think the only real solution is to have an online (or downloadable) index of D&D rules (for each edition of D&D) that gives people the ability to search for a race, skill or whatever and be told what book to pick up and what page to flip to. If D&D was all Open Game Content it would be a lot easier to manage this sort of thing.
BlU_sKrEEm wrote:I usually play an Amethyst or Crystal Dragon (I love them gem dragons.)
I've not had too much experience of gem dragons. But I do find dragons interesting and would love to see all 2e, 1e and classic D&D dragons converted to 3e rules.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by BPIJonathan »

Big Mac wrote:would love to see all 2e, 1e and classic D&D dragons converted to 3e rules.

The only problem with that, regardless of the fact that I agree with you, is that some of the material doesnt really translate well to 3e due to some of the rule changes. The one big one that I see is the problem is the concept of ECL/LA in 3.x.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

BPIJonathan wrote:
Big Mac wrote:would love to see all 2e, 1e and classic D&D dragons converted to 3e rules.

The only problem with that, regardless of the fact that I agree with you, is that some of the material doesnt really translate well to 3e due to some of the rule changes. The one big one that I see is the problem is the concept of ECL/LA in 3.x.
I've seen the same thing said over at the WotC forums. But if you are willing to go epic, it wouldn't matter so much about having a high ECL.

If World of Warcraft can bump up their 60th level characters to 70th level and then 80th level, I don't see why 3rd edition D&D can't have a boost onto the standard LA rules to allow epic level character races (like dragons).

I do think that a Dragon Racial Class (similar to the Draconian Racial Classes from Dragons of Krynn, by Margaret Weis Productions) could make it possible to play 1st level dragons of every type. Dragons all have different HD and LAs, so there would be a lot of work needed to create racial classes (if you wanted to do every type) but it would be possible.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by BPIJonathan »

I figured out a way to do it in 3e, but I havent put it into practice yet.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by night_druid »

Big Mac wrote:As per the name of this thread, has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

I heard about this mini-setting ages ago, but gave up playing D&D before it came out.
It was. Can't say I've played it; only even have one book for it.
Has anyone ever linked Council of Wyrms to another setting to create a "crossover campaign" (Spelljammer, Planescape, Mystara, Dragonlance)? If so, what did you link it to and how did it balance out?
Balance will be tricky in Council, mainly because dragons themselves vary so greatly in power.

The only way I'd really see a Council game working would be to first create a baseline "dragon", and then create a series of templates to represent "red dragons", "silver dragons", "bronze dragons", etc. Then create a series of classes suited for dragons. A lot of work, I'd say.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Big Mac »

BPIJonathan wrote:I figured out a way to do it in 3e, but I havent put it into practice yet.
What did you figure out? Epic LAs? Racial classes for dragons? The whole thing? :?:
night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:As per the name of this thread, has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

I heard about this mini-setting ages ago, but gave up playing D&D before it came out.
It was. Can't say I've played it; only even have one book for it.
I would like to see CoW (and Jakandor) revisited for 3e. I think they might both have had a ton of potential (if they hadn't been published towards the end of 2e). I wish that there had been an official Council of Wyrms site to take up the setting and pull the fan base together.
night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Has anyone ever linked Council of Wyrms to another setting to create a "crossover campaign" (Spelljammer, Planescape, Mystara, Dragonlance)? If so, what did you link it to and how did it balance out?
Balance will be tricky in Council, mainly because dragons themselves vary so greatly in power.

The only way I'd really see a Council game working would be to first create a baseline "dragon", and then create a series of templates to represent "red dragons", "silver dragons", "bronze dragons", etc. Then create a series of classes suited for dragons. A lot of work, I'd say.
Sounds fairly logical, although surely the various dragons are subraces. I'm not so sure that a drow would be done as a template to be applied to the elf race, because templates are usually things that have more than one use. However, the logical process of template creation might be the sort of thing that could create a system of playable dragons.

(Probably the same sort of process could be used to make other "families" of monsters more playable.)
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by night_druid »

Big Mac wrote:Sounds fairly logical, although surely the various dragons are subraces. I'm not so sure that a drow would be done as a template to be applied to the elf race, because templates are usually things that have more than one use. However, the logical process of template creation might be the sort of thing that could create a system of playable dragons.
Template may not be the correct term, but basically you'd have to put all the dragons on the same level, then tweak with a few modifications to create the different dragon species. Otherwise you'd have hatchling gold dragons adventuring with mature adult brass dragons to get a remotely balanced party... :lol:
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

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night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Sounds fairly logical, although surely the various dragons are subraces. I'm not so sure that a drow would be done as a template to be applied to the elf race, because templates are usually things that have more than one use. However, the logical process of template creation might be the sort of thing that could create a system of playable dragons.
Template may not be the correct term, but basically you'd have to put all the dragons on the same level, then tweak with a few modifications to create the different dragon species. Otherwise you'd have hatchling gold dragons adventuring with mature adult brass dragons to get a remotely balanced party... :lol:
I'd be inclined to base this on the MWP stuff in the DL books (where ironically they "fix" other high racial HD races with racial classes but don't actually do the Dragons!)

That has a system that takes the racial HD and the ECL and combines them into a racial class (where some levels don't add HD to make the whole thing end up the same as a monster character rolled up as a zero level character).

I would take that system and "force" PCs to stick with the "racial class" until they have "paid off" their ECL adjustments. Once they get to that level, I'd let them multiclass as the favored class (probably some sort of spellcaster) or try to "age up" with more racial levels.

Obviously the specifics (i.e. the various dragon abilities) need sorting out, but it would allow all 1st level PC dragons to be a dragon with one dragon HD.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by cimmeria »

I have a podcast and one of the co-hosts is planning a Council of Wyrms 3E playtest in order for us review the setting and talk about it on the show. When the game is done, I'll ask him to explain here how he converted the setting.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Hugin »

cimmeria wrote:I have a podcast and one of the co-hosts is planning a Council of Wyrms 3E playtest in order for us review the setting and talk about it on the show. When the game is done, I'll ask him to explain here how he converted the setting.
Thanks! That would great if he's able to.

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cimmeria wrote:I have a podcast...
...and the URL is...? :?:
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by cimmeria »

Big Mac wrote:...and the URL is...? :?:
Oh, sorry.

http://vozes.mypodcast.com

But it's in brazilian portuguese... :roll:
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by Hugin »

cimmeria wrote:
Big Mac wrote:...and the URL is...? :?:
Oh, sorry.

http://vozes.mypodcast.com

But it's in brazilian portuguese... :roll:
May not be of any help to me, but there are members on The Piazza that hail from Brazil so I'm sure it may be useful for some of us at least. ;)

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Re: [Council of Wyrms] Has anyone played Council of Wyrms?

Post by cimmeria »

Hugin wrote:May not be of any help to me, but there are members on The Piazza that hail from Brazil so I'm sure it may be useful for some of us at least. ;)
Got it. I changed my signature to display my podcast address. :D
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