Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

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Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Havard » Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:14 pm

I finally decided to buy the Sword and Shield pdf!

I was surprised to find that on each side of the map, heraldic symbols were displayed:

* A Black Dragon
* A Golden Lion
* White and red checkered pattern
* Golden Griffon on Blue
* White Griffon Head on Black
* Two-headed Eagle
* Red and white pattern

I will provide scans of these later, but I figured these would be linked to the various towns and settlements of Thunder Rift:

Avenal – Order of the Black Knight – Black Dragon – Sir Argyl
Melinir (Lawful) - Golden Lion – Sir Brion and Sir Erik
Kleine (Neutral) – white and red checkers – Lady Taris
Torlynn (Lawful) – Golden Griffon on Blue – Sir Tristram
Kraal (Chaotic) – White Griffon Head – Sir Stimdum
Longmane (Chaotic) – Two headed Eagle – Sir Renk
Edgewater (Neutral) – Red and White pattern – Lady Rianna

The Knights mentioned at the end are knights featured in the module. Longmane is an unknown location, but perhaps the source of the fiefdom of Sir Ursus Longmane, the Vampire from Haunted Tower. Barrik was also a canidate for the Two headed eagle one.

Thunder Rift no longer has a king and there is no mention of nobility outside Sword and Shield. The Knights mentioned are also low level so they have nothing to do with the Figher's option available at 9th level, although that may be an intended path for some of these warriors. My idea is that the title Knight in Thunder Rift is something awarded to the bravest warriors of each town or village, thus also granting them the privelege of wearing the insignia of that town.

Thoughts?

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Havard » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:40 pm

Trying to add some more realism into this.

The Heraldic symbols presented in Sword and Shield probably depicts the most important noble families of Thunder Rift. The fact that most of the known members of the Fighter's Academy have titles indicates that the FA was a project run by the nobility. Whether the Wizards of Wizardspire were also nobles is unknown, but we do know that the Wizard Barrik, of Torlynn is a descendant of Duke Hector Barrik (from WOTES) and thus of noble birth.

The towns of Thunder Rift are not run by nobles (anymore at least), but rather by councils (likely) elected by the burgers (or guilds?), some of which have their own elected leaders. It is thus probably a mistake to connect the noble families to the towns. OTOH, these families are probably likely to be living in the towns anyway, and may be responsible for defending these areas (in return for certain privelieges).

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by firebee » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:38 pm

Havard wrote:Trying to add some more realism into this.

The Heraldic symbols presented in Sword and Shield probably depicts the most important noble families of Thunder Rift. The fact that most of the known members of the Fighter's Academy have titles indicates that the FA was a project run by the nobility. Whether the Wizards of Wizardspire were also nobles is unknown, but we do know that the Wizard Barrik, of Torlynn is a descendant of Duke Hector Barrik (from WOTES) and thus of noble birth.
I agree that coats of arms would more logically be associated with nobel families, especially since they seem to outnumber the towns (of any significant size.) Though I do think it's entirely possible that some towns adopted the coat of arms of their former governors, so your earlier thoughts are also very interesting. It seems that between the death of the king and the destruction of the Fighters Academy, the ranks of the nobility in Thunder Rift were significantly reduced. I imagine that some families were wiped out entirely, while in other families, knightly descendants chose vocations other than being fighters (e.g. Barrik). With no King or Fighters Academy to govern/manage the order of knighthood, many families of former knights have simply kept the titles, but not the political/military responsibilities normally associated with them. The current Black Knight's attempt to restore the knightly order has attracted a number of sincere, but inexperienced, descendants of these long dead knights. This has a great "Return of the King"/"King Arthur" feel to it! Maybe somewhere in TR there exists some long-lost relative of the last king!
The towns of Thunder Rift are not run by nobles (anymore at least), but rather by councils (likely) elected by the burgers (or guilds?), some of which have their own elected leaders. It is thus probably a mistake to connect the noble families to the towns. OTOH, these families are probably likely to be living in the towns anyway, and may be responsible for defending these areas (in return for certain privelieges).

Havard
Given the political void left by the decimated noblesse, the formation of town councils and elected mayor/burgomasters seems only natural. Assuming that the Black Knight's plans start bearing fruit, conflicts between the growing knighthood and the various town governments could be quite interesting.
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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Chimpman » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:39 am

Havard wrote:I will provide scans of these later, but I figured these would be linked to the various towns and settlements of Thunder Rift:
I'd like to see these scans. If there are any family trees available for the nobility involved (or that you could put together), I'd love to see those as well.
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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Havard » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:53 pm

Thanks for bringing this up again Chimpman! :)

Here are the coats of arms with a few ideas so far:

Image
Family Lands: Torlynn
Members, current: Sir Tristram
Members, historical: Duke Hector Barrik, The Wizard Barrik

Image
Family Lands: Edgewater
Members, current: Lady Rianna

Image
Family Lands: Kleine
Members, current: Lady Taris

Image
Family Stronghold: Melinir
Members, current: Sir Brion and Sir Erik
Members, historical: Sir Mathew of the Fighter's Academy

Image
Family Lands: Gloomfens
Members, current: Sir Renk
Members, historical: Lord Ursus (actually still around as a Vampire), Sir Jamesson the Defender
The Longmane family offered their lands to host the Fighter's Academy. Since the creation of the Gloomfens, the Longmane family have relocated to Kleine. Not long ago, Lord Ursus a recent member of the family sought to reclaim his ancestral lands. He has not been seen since.

Image
Family Lands: The Black Swamp
Members, current: Sir Stimdum
Members, historical: Lady Kraal, The Blacksmith Kraal
The Kraal family dates back 800 years to the construction of Castle Kraal. Its founder is said to have been a Blacksmith who died during the construction of the castle. The Kraal family have a special hatred against Ogres.


Image
Family Stronghold: The Swamp of Avenal
Members, Current: Sir Argyl II
Members, historical: Sir Argyl I (The Black Knight)
The knights of the Avenal family are sworn to vengance. The oldest son of each generation takes the title 'the Black Knight'.

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Chimpman » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:15 am

Thanks for posting these Havard!
Havard wrote: Image
Family Lands: Gloomfens
Members, current: Sir Renk
Members, historical: Lord Ursus (actually still around as a Vampire), Sir Jamesson the Defender
The Longmane family offered their lands to host the Fighter's Academy. Since the creation of the Gloomfens, the Longmane family have relocated to Kleine. Not long ago, Lord Ursus a recent member of the family sought to reclaim his ancestral lands. He has not been seen since.
This reminds me of a series of novels I read (a long time ago) - the Coldfire trilogy. One of the main characters, Gerald Tarrant, had made a pact with the Devil and basically became a vampire. He never let any of his line claim his title, and if any ever did he would wipe out that family, leaving just a single heir.
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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Havard » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:48 pm

Chimpman wrote:This reminds me of a series of novels I read (a long time ago) - the Coldfire trilogy. One of the main characters, Gerald Tarrant, had made a pact with the Devil and basically became a vampire. He never let any of his line claim his title, and if any ever did he would wipe out that family, leaving just a single heir.
Interesting! I think canon specifies that Ursus was attacked by a vampire (or was it 'vampire-like creature'?). Still, it would be interesting to find out who his creator was, and also how Lord Ursus interracts with his family. Lord Ursus is most likely killed in the Haunted Tower module (although vampires have a tendency of getting away I suppose). If he is destroyed, it could be interesting to have him infect Sir Renk prior to his own destruction, to keep vampirisim in the family as it were 8-)

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by JTrithen » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:45 am

Just popping in (as I rarely do) to say 'nice work, Havard' -- I like this. Thanks for picking up on this, and trying to make some sense of it.
Havard wrote: .... Torlynn is a descendant of Duke Hector Barrik (from WOTES) and thus of noble birth....
WOTES = 'Warriors of the Eternal Sun?'

I didn't know that Thunder Rift had a link with this video game (it was only a video game, right?). Please enlighten me, if you don't mind.
Havard wrote: .... It is thus probably a mistake to connect the noble families to the towns. OTOH, these families are probably likely to be living in the towns anyway, and may be responsible for defending these areas (in return for certain privelieges).

Havard
I agree that the shields/heraldry would be most likely to be linked with the names/nobles and their families, but not necessarily with the towns. But the second premise is not necessarily out of the realm of believability.

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:46 pm

JTrithen wrote:Just popping in (as I rarely do) to say 'nice work, Havard' -- I like this. Thanks for picking up on this, and trying to make some sense of it.
Thank you! :) Feedback makes it all feel worthwile :)
Havard wrote: .... Torlynn is a descendant of Duke Hector Barrik (from WOTES) and thus of noble birth....
WOTES = 'Warriors of the Eternal Sun?'
Correct :)
I didn't know that Thunder Rift had a link with this video game (it was only a video game, right?). Please enlighten me, if you don't mind.
Yes it was a video game for Sega Mega Drive. The game is set in the Hollow World, but the story revolves around a castle that is going to be destroyed by goblin hordes, but is saved by the Immortal Ka and brought into the Hollow World. Thunder Rift isn't mentioned anywhere in the game, but the ruler of the castle is named Hector Barrik. The name Barrik also appears in the Curse of the Silver Sword module for TR where the PCs investigate a ruined keep near which used to be owned by a wizard named Barrik. That is pretty much all I am basing this connection upon, but I have previously used it in the timeline.
I agree that the shields/heraldry would be most likely to be linked with the names/nobles and their families, but not necessarily with the towns. But the second premise is not necessarily out of the realm of believability.
I am still pondering on how society in Thunder Rift works. In a historical RW situation, towns would be independent of the noble families who would rather be the rulers of the countryside. However, if we consider the towns more like semi-autonomous 'kingdoms', the knights could be representatives of each realm, though their dominions would likely be the surrounding areas rather than the towns themselves. We already know that the towns are usually controlled by town councils(Kleine) or mayors(Melinir). Avenal, Gloomfens/Longmane and Kraal fit more into a traditional feudal dominion. The Ducal title of the Barrik family is probably from the golden age of Thunder Rift. It does in no way reflect the size of the dominion. Hector Barrik may have been a braggart, or it could perhaps indicate some connection between this family and an original line of Kings of Thunder Rift...?

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Phoenixmcl » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:24 pm

Yea, my stuff is still packed away and my hard drived crashed.
I am not sure what the referance is (Quest for Silver Sword or Thunder Rift) but the Castle's keep is all that is left in modern Thunder Rift. In the WOTES you are adventures that serve Barrik after the castle is transported to Hollow World. I forget where the valley is but it is in HW. But somewhere in the Thunder Rift material there is a remark that the castle had disappeared and that the keep is the only part left (inhabited by Ratlings).

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Hugin » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:58 pm

That's kinda cool. I didn't realize there was this much of a connection between WotES and Thunder Rift

I need to take some second glances at my TR material.

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:24 pm

Phoenixmcl wrote:Yea, my stuff is still packed away and my hard drived crashed.
I am not sure what the referance is (Quest for Silver Sword or Thunder Rift) but the Castle's keep is all that is left in modern Thunder Rift. In the WOTES you are adventures that serve Barrik after the castle is transported to Hollow World. I forget where the valley is but it is in HW. But somewhere in the Thunder Rift material there is a remark that the castle had disappeared and that the keep is the only part left (inhabited by Ratlings).
I have a map somewhere (which I made) showing the location of the Valley of the Ethernal Sun in the Hollow World. The exact location isnt given anywhere, but it can be derived from the neighbouring cultures which make a presence in the game. I'll see if I can find it.

Where the Ratlings came from...well that's another question! :)

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Phoenixmcl » Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:42 am

Yea ratlings are a pain in the butt. There are already a whole bunch of humanoid races around the lake and torlynn area. Kobolds, goblins, newts, lizardmen, rakastas, etc!

Good thing is the ratlings are suppose to be from a different area than thunder rift (don't have my material but I think they state it). The could have travel in from the eastern trail (perhaps Parsa, Ylarum). Would be interesting creatures to add to levels of the Lost City(B4) :| Maybe a more powerful were-rat mage created them for some purpose. Whatever.
Anyway ratlings are tricky. Less of them the better in my opinion.

In game mechanics they are great for breaking up the bore Thunder Rift has a lot of Lizardmen/Golblins/Kobolds. Both the creation of ratlings and newts give players a little change at levels 1-5.

http://www.gamelegacies.com/d&d.html/ <----WOTES

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Phoenixmcl » Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:57 am

Here is your map man :D

http://www.pandius.com/hllw_map.html

Yea Barriks valley is pretty much where it is labeled.

Okay no more posting in Heraldry Post ;)

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Monkey » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:21 am

I was doing some research into the feudal period of Thunder Rift to better outline its current political state over in the thread I have been working on, and I found the heraldic symbol for Sir Jameson the Defender (and maybe the Fighters Academy) in The Haunted Tower boxed set, The Fighter's Academy booklet, page 3. It is described as "a shield bearing the picture of a silver wyvern in flight".

Image

There is also another another knight encountered there (in the form of a bog mummy). Sir Mathew: a knight serving under Sir Jameson and an instructor at the fighter's academy.

Maybe I should put my short essay on my thoughts on feudalism and families in Thunder Rift in this thread, and not confuse the location map thread. Any thoughts?

-Edit- I did it. Here it is:
The Political History of Thunder Rift, and the Town of Melinir

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Monkey » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:32 pm

Hello.
This is a link-dump.
I collected a bunch of useful information over on a another topic, and I thought it be of some use you folks over here. I'll keep everything in-world inside this post, and put everything from the "real-world" in the post below, just adding to it if I find stuff.

Here is the citation information for the referenced products:
- McComb, Colin. Thunder Rift. Lake Geneva, WI, USA: TSR, 1992. Print.
- Terra, John J. Sword and Shield. Lake Geneva, WI: TSR, 1992. Print.

Here is a Mystarian Knight's Chapterhouse by Brant Guillory, over at The Vaults of Pandius:
- http://pandius.com/chpthsky.html

This is from a topic exploring rank, title, land divisions and rights, and there relevance to the history of the Rift:
Two posts of mine about the Thunder Rift knights:
- viewtopic.php?f=45&t=11148&p=132698#p132698
- viewtopic.php?f=45&t=11148&p=133687#p133687
A post by Gecko about the knights:
- viewtopic.php?f=45&p=133735#p133735
A post by Justinov about the knights:
- viewtopic.php?f=45&p=133760#p133760
Last edited by Monkey on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Heraldry and Knighthood in Thunder Rift

Post by Monkey » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:53 pm

Without further ado, here are some links:

Basic Background Stuff:
- A description and explanation of Feudalism:
Feudalism
- A description of some of the divisions of medieval society:
Estates of the Realm
- What Nobility is:
Read All About Nobility
- Where I get my ideas about rank, nobility, and entitlement from:
Common Feudal Ranks and Titles
- Where I get my ideas about feudal land tenure:
Feudal Land Tenure

Here is a list of online resources to help understand medieval land division, usage rights, and law:
Here is a List of Medieval Land Terms
Read All About Homage
Read All About Vassalage
Read All About Enfeoffment
Read All About Farm Revenue Commutation
Read All About Land Tenure
Read All About Feudal Land Tenure
Read All About the Subdivision of Feudal Land
Read All About Small Land Titles
Read All About Fiefdoms
Read All About "Fee Simple"
Read All About Socage
Read All About Quit-rent
Read All About Leasehold Estates
Read All About Copyhold
Read All About Freeholds
Read All About Customary Freehold
Read All About Medieval Farming

Barons, often the lowest rung on the Nobility Ladder (and the most likely noble title for a knight, if they have a noble title):

Read All About Barons
Read All About Manor Lords
Read All About Manorial Court
Read All About Manor Houses
Read All About Baronies
Read All About British Baronies

Here is lowest of those that may be considered nobility (depending on the location and period), and what knights may do for there "other job":
Read All About Shires
Read All About Magistrates
Read All About Balifs
Read All About High-Reeves
Read All About Shire-Reeves (Sheriffs)
Read All About Reeves
Read All About Vogts
Read All About Burgomasters
Read All About Mayors
Read All About Town Councils

Kighthood (see, this is relevant):
A Quick Introduction to Historical Knighthood
Read All About Pages
Read All About Squires
Read All About The Knighting Ceremony
Read All About The Accolade or Adoubement/ Dubbing Ceremony
Read All About What Happens During a Knighthood Ceremony
Read A Good Description And Explanation Of The Knighthood
Read All About The Knighthood
Read Some In-depth Descriptions and Explanations About the Knighthood
Read All About Knightly Virtues and Chivalry
Read All About Knightly Orders
Read All About the Subdivision of Feudal Land
Read All About Small Land Titles
Read All About Knight's Fee
Read All About Knight's Service
Read All About Real Knight Academies

What Knightly Orders Are:
Read All About Knightly Orders
Read All About Chivalric Orders

A Few Example Knightly Orders:
Read All About The Knights Templar
Read All About The Knights Hospitaller
Read All About The Knights of the Band
Read All About The Knights of Saint Thomas
Read All About The Teutonic knights
Read All About The Order of The Garter
Read All About The Order of the Dragon
Read All About The Order of Saint George
Grand Masters:
Read All About The Grand Masters
Read All About The Grand Masters of the Knights Templar
Read All About The Grand Masters of the Knights Hospitaller
Read All About The Grand Masters of the Teutonic Knights

While we are on the subject of knighthood, this is relevant to Sword and Shield:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastilude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tournament_%28medieval%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintain_%28jousting%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jousting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladitorial_combat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%AAl%C3%A9e
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_d%27Armes

Heraldry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry
http://www.internationalheraldry.com/
http://www.heraldry.ws/

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