Considerations for the placement of TR

[TraverseTravis]

Some considerations:

1) TSR Editor Andrew Steven Harris' statements on placement. As far as I know, this is the only word we have from a TSR employee about the placement of TR. Harris personally favored placing TR "on one of Mystara's other continents" because this "would, to some extent, solve the size issue" and "would make the gateway to Karameikos that much more important."

2) Davania or Skothar? Between the choice of Davania and Skothar, I favor Davania because: The Jurassic supercontinent of Gondwanaland upon which Davania is based, is supposed to have split apart via rift valleys. Eurasia (=Skothar) didn't split asunder like this, and so isn't as associated with rifts as Gondwanaland/Davania is. I imagine Thunder Rift being along one of the major rift lines of Gondwanaland.

3) What quadrant of Davania? No word of TR in Davania has reached the Known World powers yet. Therefore I favor it being in a wholly unexplored quadrant of Davania. Northern Davania and eastern Davania have already been semi-explored. The canonical areas of eastern Davania are displayed in LoZompatore's Vulcania map. Though TR could be magically hidden in northern or eastern Davania or simply overlooked (the Princess Ark barely explored the region), I favor central or western Davania for this reason.

4) TR is in a mountainous area. Since TR is located in mountains, I favor placing it in one of the mountainous areas of central or western Davania, depicted in the the Master Rules map.

5) Which Gondwana rift? If a rift is to be chosen, I favor selecting the most prominent rift -- the rift that would later separate South America and Africa. The rift lines are visible in these maps:
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/JAR ... /Fig27.jpg
http://www.biologie.uni-rostock.de/wran ... es/6.1.JPG

6) Matching the rift with mountains. Overlaying the Gondwana rift maps with the Master map's mountain areas, narrows down the possible placement. Namely, somewhere along the "eastern shore of South America":
a) in the mountains south of Brasol, or
b) in the westernmost areas of the "Ice Peaks" massif (the eastern areas are visible in LoZompatore's map).

7) Pinpointing TR: its River and Valley. The largest topographic features of TR are its river and the valley/rift itself. (For reference, the official map of TR.) Of course these could be fit into almost anywhere within the two above-mentioned areas of Davania. However, it might be fitting to try to place TR so that:
a) The river is in the mountainous headwaters of one of the two rivers visible south of Brasol in the Masters map, and/or
b) TR is located in one of the tiny blank spots (apparently representing valleys) which are interspersed within the mountain areas of the Masters map.

Though I don't have the mapmaking tools to depict it and figure it all out, I think this method would result in a Davanian location for TR that takes into account as much of the official geographic data as feasible.

Travis

Postscript. If I owned the Mystara IP, I would eventually release a new KW/SC-sized subsetting that surrounded Thunder Rift, with TR simply the "Threshold and Karameikos" of that setting. The gate from Karameikos would be a convenient way to bring PCs to the new setting.

[Havard]

Interesting thoughts Travis. My main reason for wanting to keep TR in the Known World is that it doesn't really add anything to any of the other continents. It is culturally close to the Known World countries (ie standard fantasy). Also, since we know so little about Davania and Skothar, there isn't much we can draw from those sources to flesh out the missing details on TR either, whereas if we have established contact with Darokin and Karameikos, we can assume there are certain similarities between those countries and TR beyond what is described in the book.

Havard

[firebee]

Interesting thoughts Travis. My main reason for wanting to keep TR in the Known World is that it doesn't really add anything to any of the other continents. It is culturally close to the Known World countries (ie standard fantasy). Also, since we know so little about Davania and Skothar, there isn't much we can draw from those sources to flesh out the missing details on TR either, whereas if we have established contact with Darokin and Karameikos, we can assume there are certain similarities between those countries and TR beyond what is described in the book.

Havard

I agree with Havard. I would rather see TR set in the Rockhome/Darokin/Karameikos (I am flexible as to exactly where) area for continuity/compatibility reasons.

[Dave L]

Having just read the Escape from Thunder Rift module, I feel this raises serious questions over a Karameikos setting for TR.

Given that the main object of the module is for the PC's to stop a high level mage from reaching Karameikos and raising an army, what's to stop him just using the caravan trail if TR is set anywhere near Karameikos?

Of course, wherever TR was set, there would need to be a logical reason why local forces accessible via the caravan trail would not be useful to the mage, or the whole module loses its credibility.

[Havard]

Having just read the Escape from Thunder Rift module, I feel this raises serious questions over a Karameikos setting for TR.

Given that the main object of the module is for the PC's to stop a high level mage from reaching Karameikos and raising an army, what's to stop him just using the caravan trail if TR is set anywhere near Karameikos?

Of course, wherever TR was set, there would need to be a logical reason why local forces accessible via the caravan trail would not be useful to the mage, or the whole module loses its credibility.

A fair point Dave! I suppose one explanation could be that Chambrin does not know the location of Thunder Rift, or the trails leading out of the valley. Not sure if the mage has access to spells that could provide him with that information, but it is possible that the magic of the monolith, which IMC hides the valley, also works against magical detection...

OTOH, I am not discarding this as an argument for moving Thunder Rift away from Karameikos. Allowing the valley to be placed pretty much anywhere does make it easier for a DM to make use of it. For detailing the history of Thunder Rift, it does help if we can make the assumption that the valley has been accessed by various peoples of the Known World, since that helps alot for fleshing out details of the various cultures of Thunder Rift, rather than leaving them completely generic.

Havard

[Dave L]

For detailing the history of Thunder Rift, it does help if we can make the assumption that the valley has been accessed by various peoples of the Known World, since that helps alot for fleshing out details of the various cultures of Thunder Rift, rather than leaving them completely generic.

Yes, I actually like the idea of a location near to the Known World for that reason as well.
I was just musing on the fact that anyone who locates TR fairly near Karameikos and uses the "Escape from" module is going to need an "in-game" logical reason for Chambrin not to use the caravan trail. Nothing worse than a bunch of players pointing out glaring holes in the DM's logic!

I didn't realise you used a device to hide the valley, but realistically if there is a caravan trail, every major merchant is likely to know of it, even if they don't actually travel it themselves.

Of course, you could use a purely temporary "mountain emergency" to block the trail for a few months - even a severe winter could do it if you don't have much imagination.

Chambrin would then be forced to use his "Plan B", which would actually make stopping him much more important - because even if the pool was heavily fortified by the dwarves, his army would be able to come in through the trail once it was opened again.

[Havard]

For detailing the history of Thunder Rift, it does help if we can make the assumption that the valley has been accessed by various peoples of the Known World, since that helps alot for fleshing out details of the various cultures of Thunder Rift, rather than leaving them completely generic.

Yes, I actually like the idea of a location near to the Known World for that reason as well.
I was just musing on the fact that anyone who locates TR fairly near Karameikos and uses the "Escape from" module is going to need an "in-game" logical reason for Chambrin not to use the caravan trail. Nothing worse than a bunch of players pointing out glaring holes in the DM's logic!

I didn't realise you used a device to hide the valley, but realistically if there is a caravan trail, every major merchant is likely to know of it, even if they don't actually travel it themselves.

Of course, you could use a purely temporary "mountain emergency" to block the trail for a few months - even a severe winter could do it if you don't have much imagination.

Chambrin would then be forced to use his "Plan B", which would actually make stopping him much more important - because even if the pool was heavily fortified by the dwarves, his army would be able to come in through the trail once it was opened again.

There are two trail routes leading out of Thunder Rift, one in the Bone Hills and another in the Horned Hills. These trails are known only by a few individuals in Thunder Rift. The path through the Bone Hills is guarded by a Red Dragon. The path leading through the Horned Hills does have some trade going through it (perhaps to Ylaruam), but this trade is controlled by Minotaurs who also have a Manticore in their employ. This is all going by canon.

The story with the Monolith is mainly my own idea about the Monolith being carved out of the same material which makes the moon of Myoshima invisible. Thunder Rift is supposed to be hard to find, so I figured the Monolith is used to hide the valley. My idea was that the Monolith was summoned to that site by the original Hutaakan civilization of the valley. It may also be how the Rakasta (hailing from Myoshima) found Thunder Rift.

Havard

[Dave L]

I'd forgotten about the dragon-guarded path, but figured a powerful wizard, especially if he accompanied a well-equipped caravan, wouldn't be troubled by the minotaurs.

However, they could be played up as a plot device to force him to use "Plan B".

I like your reasoning behind the Monolith's presence - especially tying the Rakasta in with it.

[Havard]

I'd forgotten about the dragon-guarded path, but figured a powerful wizard, especially if he accompanied a well-equipped caravan, wouldn't be troubled by the minotaurs.

On this version of the Thunder Rift map, the path to Karameikos is the one guarded by the Dragon. The other one leads to Ylaruam, where Chambryn may not be so well connected. OTOH, I do agree that the Horned Hill path is problematic. One thing I have been thinking about is having that path leading to a series of underground caves, so that Thunder Rift is in fact cut off from the outer surface world, but has some trade with underground civilizations. It could work either way though.

I like your reasoning behind the Monolith's presence - especially tying the Rakasta in with it.

Thanks!

Havard

[Dave L]

On this version of the Thunder Rift map, the path to Karameikos is the one guarded by the Dragon. The other one leads to Ylaruam, where Chambryn may not be so well connected.

That will teach me to download stuff without looking at it properly.
I'd completely overlooked that!

OTOH, I do agree that the Horned Hill path is problematic. One thing I have been thinking about is having that path leading to a series of underground caves, so that Thunder Rift is in fact cut off from the outer surface world, but has some trade with underground civilizations. It could work either way though.

I still think a temporary disruption to the path would be sufficient justification for the "Escape" module. Of course, if you want to stop your PC's travelling outside the Rift until the DM decides, then some sort of plot device will be necessary. Underground caves - all sorts of possibilities come to mind for adventure links!

[Havard]

On this version of the Thunder Rift map, the path to Karameikos is the one guarded by the Dragon. The other one leads to Ylaruam, where Chambryn may not be so well connected.

That will teach me to download stuff without looking at it properly.
I'd completely overlooked that!

Keep that in mind when I release the next version of my map

OTOH, I do agree that the Horned Hill path is problematic. One thing I have been thinking about is having that path leading to a series of underground caves, so that Thunder Rift is in fact cut off from the outer surface world, but has some trade with underground civilizations. It could work either way though.

I still think a temporary disruption to the path would be sufficient justification for the "Escape" module. Of course, if you want to stop your PC's travelling outside the Rift until the DM decides, then some sort of plot device will be necessary. Underground caves - all sorts of possibilities come to mind for adventure links!

You are right. For the module that would work. And Underground caves are always fun!

When it comes to the average citizen of Thunder Rift, I don't really think they consider themselves trapped. They are pretty happy to stay where they are and afraid to venture into the wilderness. Most communities are mostly self sustained and what they cannot produce themselves they get from trade with the other races of Thunder Rift, or from Nicholas Maybrush who seems to have his own sources...

Havard

[Gawain_VIII]

Here's a placement for consideration that'd make Havard's KW position quite happy.

In the Altan Tepes Mts, on the Karameikos/Thyatis border, just south of where the border meets up with the Ylari border are 3 8-mile hexes of broken lands.

What if... the mountains surrounding TR are so rugged--for whatever reason even more rugged than the thickest part of the Altan Tepes--that no cartographer has gotten close enough to see any more than "generally rugged mountainous terrain", seen from a neighboring range (probably several hexes away).

Roger

[Dave L]

Here's a placement for consideration that'd make Havard's KW position quite happy.

In the Altan Tepes Mts, on the Karameikos/Thyatis border, just south of where the border meets up with the Ylari border are 3 8-mile hexes of broken lands.

What if... the mountains surrounding TR are so rugged--for whatever reason even more rugged than the thickest part of the Altan Tepes--that no cartographer has gotten close enough to see any more than "generally rugged mountainous terrain", seen from a neighboring range (probably several hexes away).

Roger

Looking at Havard's map of TR, it's only 21 miles x 32 miles, which works out to 3x4 hexes. I'd suggest a location completely within the Thyatian border, to keep it out of patrol range of Castellan Keep, who are probably more interested in keeping an eye on the frost giants to the North, anyway.

Other than that, the location would work fine - never having measured the map, I was amazed to find TR was so small. No wonder there are so few inhabitants!

[Belathauzer]

I thought that this topic sounded familiar. It's because we discussed it before back in the summer:

Thunder Rift Location

At that time several people agreed with Gawain_VIII/Roger's placement:

Here's a placement for consideration that'd make Havard's KW position quite happy.

In the Altan Tepes Mts, on the Karameikos/Thyatis border, just south of where the border meets up with the Ylari border are 3 8-mile hexes of broken lands.

What if... the mountains surrounding TR are so rugged--for whatever reason even more rugged than the thickest part of the Altan Tepes--that no cartographer has gotten close enough to see any more than "generally rugged mountainous terrain", seen from a neighboring range (probably several hexes away).

Roger

Gecko had included a link to a map posted by Zendrolion on the Italian boards:

Mappa "Sulla Strada di Ylaruam" (Map "On the road to Ylaruam")

This map depicts the details of the Karameikos/Thyatis/Darokin/Ylaruam border area - the thickest part of the Altan Tepes mountains and the area surrounding Castellan Keep. If you look at the map you can see what appears to be a hilly pass that winds through the mountains to the north-east of Castellan Keep and possibly into Ylaruam. There are several dead ends/box canyons along the way. Practically smack dab in the middle of this pass is a larger clearing (valley?) area with what appears to be a large lake (lake Ganif??).

It's my opinion that Thunder Rift can easily be inserted into this area (in fact, I've done it in my game). Being buried deep in the mountains beyond Castellan Keep keeps it nice and remote. The pass through the mountains is long and treacherous, which is why most sane people keep to well patrolled roads. The mountains are filled with enough goblins, orcs, and giants to keep most traders and travellers from even using the pass, let alone passing through safely. The north-eastern/Ylaruam end of the pass could connect to the Horned Hills entrance to TR, while the south-western/Karameikos end could connect to the Bone Hills entrance. The few travellers who are lucky, blessed, or crazy enough to find their way safely through could find sanctuary (or imprisonment) in Thunder Rift.

[Dave L]

An interesting map - I'm assuming it's Zendrolion's own creation. Any idea what scale he used? It looks to be about 3 miles/hex, going by the distance from Castellan Keep to the border.

[Dave L]

Well, I don't think I've ever made a rougher map, but here's a little feasibility study:



At 4 miles per hex, if I've got the borders right, TR will fit entirely within the Karameikos border.

The structure bottom left is Castellan Keep.

I didn't bother with different terrain, caravan trails or anything like that - I just wanted to see if TR would fit.

Given that the Bone Hills entrance is guarded by a dragon and there's over 20 miles of nasty mountains to get to Castellan Keep - it's definitely doable. Zendrolion's map is much nicer, but I was looking for a location where you could dump the entire TR map "as is" (or Havard's alternative map), and then arrange the surrounding mountains to suit where you wanted the caravan trail to come out.

Consider me convinced.

[Havard]

Hmmm...Interesting discussion.

BTW I thought I had posted a map showing TR in the exact same location?

Havard

[Dave L]

Hmmm...Interesting discussion.

BTW I thought I had posted a map showing TR in the exact same location?

Havard

I wasn't aware of that, so I went searching.

After a bit of detective work I found this on the Gleemax forums:



Does that look familiar?

It's a lot better looking than mine, but you're right - exact same location.

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun - and great minds think alike!

[Havard]

I wasn't aware of that, so I went searching.

After a bit of detective work I found this on the Gleemax forums:

Thanks for finding the map for me

Does that look familiar?

It's a lot better looking than mine, but you're right - exact same location.

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun - and great minds think alike!

I stole one of Thorf's maps for the B/W section so he deserves the credit if it looks nice. Yours looks good too. Care to fill in those green hexes in your version based on the TR features from my map? I'm trying to picture what a hex map of TR at this scale would look like...

Havard

[Dave L]

I stole one of Thorf's maps for the B/W section so he deserves the credit if it looks nice. Yours looks good too. Care to fill in those green hexes in your version based on the TR features from my map? I'm trying to picture what a hex map of TR at this scale would look like...

So am I - I was hoping one of our mapping experts would fill in the gaps for us!

Okay, I'll give it a go - I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it today, as it's my eldest daughter's birthday and they've all just got home from school. Presents - what presents?

[Dave L]

Okay, this isn't set in stone, it's just a first attempt.

What do you think?

[Havard]

Wicked!

Its so weird seeing this in a standard hex scale. How about bordes for the valley in the next version?

Havard

[Dave L]

Wicked!

Its so weird seeing this in a standard hex scale. How about bordes for the valley in the next version?

Havard

Sure, but are there any changes you think I should make first?

[Havard]

Looks good to me

Not sure, maybe add rivers? There's also the question of whether Hearth-Home should be marked as a town?

Havard

[Dave L]

Looks good to me

Not sure, maybe add rivers? There's also the question of whether Hearth-Home should be marked as a town?

Looking through both the TR setting, and the Escape from TR module, I couldn't find a proper description of Hearth-Home that included numbers of inhabitants. Because of that, and because they are dwarves after all, I've used the mine symbol.

I made a bit of a strategic error though - I started adding the rivers in Paint Shop Pro on the version I'd cut for posting, rather than the original. That meant I couldn't put it back in Hexmapper, so I had to do the borders by hand in PSP as well. Doh!

I'll need to rethink it if I redo any of it - doing it in Hexmapper is a lot quicker!

Anyway, here's version 3: