Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

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Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Boneguard » Tue May 07, 2013 11:56 pm

Since BigMac wanted a bit more info Here, I present to you the Synopsis/Backstory of the Domain:

Kalidnay
Kalidnay is a domain taken from Athas (Dark Sun setting). It is ruled by the High Priestess Thakok-An, whose defining crime was the sacrifice of her family in order to transform her Sorcerer King, Kalid-Ma, into a dragon. Instead of transforming, the King was put into a deep sleep, and half of the city's population was killed. As soon as this happened, Kalidnay was added to Ravenloft as an island of terror. Thakok's curse is having her beloved master at her side, as she wanted, but in a sleeping state, thus never having his favor. Worse, she cannot even try to awake him, because she knows if he awakens, he will probably kill her, or worse!


And a bit of extra info:
1)
Thakok-An and Kalid-Ma's gender are up for debate as they are two versions of this dark domain's origin. When Kalidnay first appeared in the Forbidden Lore supplement, Thakok-An was a high priest and Kalid-Ma was his Sorceress-Queen. The Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium I & II supplement follows this view (see page 116 -- the monster Palik's story). In the Domains of the Dread corebook their genders were swapped: Kalid became a King while Thakok was transformed into a female priestess. The reasons for this change seem to be due to the fact that Dark Sun products refer to Kalid-Ma as a male.


2) Kalidnay have 2 city. The main one have only 2300 Souls...what is left of the initial 15 000 or so. The second one have only 200 people or so.

3) All dark Sun race, except Thri-Kreen are available.

4) Thakok-An is a Half-elven Templar-psionicist.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Big Mac » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:48 pm

Boneguard wrote:Since BigMac wanted a bit more info Here, I present to you the Synopsis/Backstory of the Domain:

Kalidnay
Kalidnay is a domain taken from Athas (Dark Sun setting). It is ruled by the High Priestess Thakok-An, whose defining crime was the sacrifice of her family in order to transform her Sorcerer King, Kalid-Ma, into a dragon. Instead of transforming, the King was put into a deep sleep, and half of the city's population was killed. As soon as this happened, Kalidnay was added to Ravenloft as an island of terror. Thakok's curse is having her beloved master at her side, as she wanted, but in a sleeping state, thus never having his favor. Worse, she cannot even try to awake him, because she knows if he awakens, he will probably kill her, or worse!


Thanks Boneguard. So did Kalidnay originally appear in the Dark Sun products (and then get transferred over into Ravenoft) or did it get invented for Ravenloft, but get given a Dark Sun backstory?

Boneguard wrote:And a bit of extra info:
1)
Thakok-An and Kalid-Ma's gender are up for debate as they are two versions of this dark domain's origin. When Kalidnay first appeared in the Forbidden Lore supplement, Thakok-An was a high priest and Kalid-Ma was his Sorceress-Queen. The Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium I & II supplement follows this view (see page 116 -- the monster Palik's story). In the Domains of the Dread corebook their genders were swapped: Kalid became a King while Thakok was transformed into a female priestess. The reasons for this change seem to be due to the fact that Dark Sun products refer to Kalid-Ma as a male.


That seems a strange thing to change. :?

So were the Dark Sun products, that had the opposite sex to Forbidden Lore published before or after Forbidden Lore?

Boneguard wrote:2) Kalidnay have 2 city. The main one have only 2300 Souls...what is left of the initial 15 000 or so. The second one have only 200 people or so.


In the other thread, you described Kalidnay as an isolated island. So how does that work with the environment that Dark Sun has? Is this an island that is mostly desert, with two cities on it? Has the new environment done anything to change how the people of Kaliday live?

Boneguard wrote:3) All dark Sun race, except Thri-Kreen are available.


Is there any reason why Thri-Kreen are not included? Were they never present in either of the cities or did something about the teleportation over to Ravenloft make them stay behind?

Boneguard wrote:4) Thakok-An is a Half-elven Templar-psionicist.


Do you think that Thakok-An works differently as a High Priestess than a High Priest?

One last question, which is more out of interest, than a desire to do this myself. How easy would it be for a Dark Sun fan, who "wants more stuff" to take these Ravenloft products and move Kalidnay back to Athas? What do you think they would need to change?

EDIT: I thought about something else. Does Kalidnay have defiling and preserving spellcasting, like on Athas, or did it start to follow the rules of the rest of Ravenloft when it was sucked over?
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Boneguard » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:17 am

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:Since BigMac wanted a bit more info Here, I present to you the Synopsis/Backstory of the Domain:

Kalidnay
Kalidnay is a domain taken from Athas (Dark Sun setting). It is ruled by the High Priestess Thakok-An, whose defining crime was the sacrifice of her family in order to transform her Sorcerer King, Kalid-Ma, into a dragon. Instead of transforming, the King was put into a deep sleep, and half of the city's population was killed. As soon as this happened, Kalidnay was added to Ravenloft as an island of terror. Thakok's curse is having her beloved master at her side, as she wanted, but in a sleeping state, thus never having his favor. Worse, she cannot even try to awake him, because she knows if he awakens, he will probably kill her, or worse!


Thanks Boneguard. So did Kalidnay originally appear in the Dark Sun products (and then get transferred over into Ravenoft) or did it get invented for Ravenloft, but get given a Dark Sun backstory?


In the Dark Sun produce, it always was a Ruined city. It appears in one of the Advanture Merchant house of Amketch and it's already a Ruin City.

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:And a bit of extra info:
1)
Thakok-An and Kalid-Ma's gender are up for debate as they are two versions of this dark domain's origin. When Kalidnay first appeared in the Forbidden Lore supplement, Thakok-An was a high priest and Kalid-Ma was his Sorceress-Queen. The Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium I & II supplement follows this view (see page 116 -- the monster Palik's story). In the Domains of the Dread corebook their genders were swapped: Kalid became a King while Thakok was transformed into a female priestess. The reasons for this change seem to be due to the fact that Dark Sun products refer to Kalid-Ma as a male.


That seems a strange thing to change. :?

So were the Dark Sun products, that had the opposite sex to Forbidden Lore published before or after Forbidden Lore?


After Forbidden Lore. Forbidden Lore(1992) and Merchant House of Amketch (1993) both Refer to the Kalid-Ma As a Sorceress-Queen. Ravanloft core book Domain of Dread (1997) and the Psionic Artifact of Athas(1996) refers to Kalid-Ma as a Dragon-King. So it occureb between 1993 and 1996.

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:2) Kalidnay have 2 city. The main one have only 2300 Souls...what is left of the initial 15 000 or so. The second one have only 200 people or so.


In the other thread, you described Kalidnay as an isolated island. So how does that work with the environment that Dark Sun has? Is this an island that is mostly desert, with two cities on it? Has the new environment done anything to change how the people of Kaliday live?


Well the domain is isolated in all front by the Mist. It's basically the standard Dark Sun Desert setting witha big town and a road leading to the smaller community. Aside from the Mist everything is basically as it as on Athas.

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:3) All dark Sun race, except Thri-Kreen are available.


Is there any reason why Thri-Kreen are not included? Were they never present in either of the cities or did something about the teleportation over to Ravenloft make them stay behind?


I don't know, they just stated all race but the Thri-Kreen. Could have been a balance issue...then again Dark Sun Character in Ravenloft would be unbalanced one way or the other.

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:4) Thakok-An is a Half-elven Templar-psionicist.


Do you think that Thakok-An works differently as a High Priestess than a High Priest?


I don't know. To be honest, the Sex swap doesn't add or remove much. Whether Kalid-Ma is a Sorceress-Queen or A sorceror-KIng, this Dragon is as much bad news for the people. Same goes for Thakok-An, he/she would be as Deadly and powerful one way or the other.

Big Mac wrote:One last question, which is more out of interest, than a desire to do this myself. How easy would it be for a Dark Sun fan, who "wants more stuff" to take these Ravenloft products and move Kalidnay back to Athas? What do you think they would need to change?


The State of Kalid-Ma. Currently he's in hibernation due to the failed spell to quickly change him to a DRagon...and by extension Thakok-An status as Templar might change if s/he falls out of favor.


Big Mac wrote:EDIT: I thought about something else. Does Kalidnay have defiling and preserving spellcasting, like on Athas, or did it start to follow the rules of the rest of Ravenloft when it was sucked over?


Still use both DEfiling and Preserving magic. And Defiling is pretty nasty when yuo take into account of the Ravenloft's Power Check that they usually provoque.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:37 am

Big Mac wrote:In the other thread, you described Kalidnay as an isolated island. So how does that work with the environment that Dark Sun has? Is this an island that is mostly desert, with two cities on it? Has the new environment done anything to change how the people of Kaliday live?


Keep in mind that "Island" in the Ravenloft setting doesn't necessarily mean "surrounded by water." It just means it's not part of the Core.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Big Mac » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:33 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:In the other thread, you described Kalidnay as an isolated island. So how does that work with the environment that Dark Sun has? Is this an island that is mostly desert, with two cities on it? Has the new environment done anything to change how the people of Kaliday live?


Keep in mind that "Island" in the Ravenloft setting doesn't necessarily mean "surrounded by water." It just means it's not part of the Core.


I don't actually own any Ravenloft stuff. Could you give an example of how an island (without water) in Ravenloft might work?

Would it be surrounded by mist (isolating it from the rest of Ravenloft)? Does an island just mean that it is something like an isolated subsetting?
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Boneguard » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:24 pm

Big Mac wrote:Would it be surrounded by mist (isolating it from the rest of Ravenloft)? Does an island just mean that it is something like an isolated subsetting?


Yep. That's pretty much it.

Now, the Core Domain have an ocean to the left and right of it. So some of the Core Domain are actual water surrounded Island.
However As mentionned 'Island' Domain are just pockets of land surrounded by the Mist...making it essentially an island in a sea of Mist.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby rabindranath72 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:43 am

And beyond the water, there are mists anyway. There are also some island domains, which are effectively surrounded by water, but again water is surrounded by mist.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Boneguard » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:36 am

rabindranath72 wrote:And beyond the water, there are mists anyway. There are also some island domains, which are effectively surrounded by water, but again water is surrounded by mist.


Well the Mist is everywhere and: Yes, the Core domains (and the 2 ocean on both sides) are indeed surrounded by the Mist.

But whether it's an actual island surrounded by Water then Mist or a clump of dryland surrounded by Mist; we can all agree that an "Island Domain" is an Domain isolated by the Core and only reacheable by walking into the MIst -and hope that it takes us where we want.

Kalidnay falls under the category of a 'Clump of land surrounded by the Mist' Island Domain and the only way in or out is to step into the Mist.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Big Mac » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:23 am

I've found a Kalidnay article at WotC (you need a DDI account to read it all) and a Kalidnay article at Mistipedia.

It looks like Kalidnay started off as a part of Ravenloft, with a Dark Sun theme, but is currently a part of Dark Sun, with a Ravenloft theme. :?
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:50 am

Big Mac wrote:It looks like Kalidnay started off as a part of Ravenloft, with a Dark Sun theme, but is currently a part of Dark Sun, with a Ravenloft theme. :?


It's both, really. On Athas, it remains only ruins. When 4th edition sources mention the Shadowfell, essentially that's Ravenloft, or the closest thing 4th edition has to Ravenloft.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Boneguard » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:35 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:It looks like Kalidnay started off as a part of Ravenloft, with a Dark Sun theme, but is currently a part of Dark Sun, with a Ravenloft theme. :?


It's both, really. On Athas, it remains only ruins. When 4th edition sources mention the Shadowfell, essentially that's Ravenloft, or the closest thing 4th edition has to Ravenloft.


Yes. In AD&D 2nd ed. It began as a ruin on Athas that was made a Ravenloft Domain in Forbidden Lore(1992) and the Ruin was used it in Merchant House of Amketch (1993). But the Ruin of Kalidnay was there on the map of the 1st Dark Sun Setting Boxset (1991) near the lost Oasis (lower leftish corner).

It's interesting that they are Retconning it.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Big Mac » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:36 pm

Boneguard wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:It looks like Kalidnay started off as a part of Ravenloft, with a Dark Sun theme, but is currently a part of Dark Sun, with a Ravenloft theme. :?


It's both, really. On Athas, it remains only ruins. When 4th edition sources mention the Shadowfell, essentially that's Ravenloft, or the closest thing 4th edition has to Ravenloft.


Yes. In AD&D 2nd ed. It began as a ruin on Athas that was made a Ravenloft Domain in Forbidden Lore(1992) and the Ruin was used it in Merchant House of Amketch (1993). But the Ruin of Kalidnay was there on the map of the 1st Dark Sun Setting Boxset (1991) near the lost Oasis (lower leftish corner).

It's interesting that they are Retconning it.


Very interesting. I remember reading the Blades of the Moonsea trillogy* and the way Rich Baker described The Shadowfell was that he said it used to be called The Plane of Shadow and also said it was like a distorted mirror of the Material Plane. Would you say that Ravenloft's Kaliday is a mirror of what Dark Sun's Kailday used to be?

* = The middle book, Corsair has Spelljammer crossover stuff. ;)

Forgotten Realms also has an entire city, in Anarouch, that migrated to the Plane of Shadow and then returned later. Would you say that Kalidnay could copy that and return from Ravenloft to Athas?
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:10 pm

That gets complicated because 4th edition FR was a continuation of 3e Realms canon while 4e Dark Sun was a clean reboot. So the Realms has an incharacter justification for why the Plane of Shadow became the Shadowfell (Shar messed with it) and in 4th edition Dark Sun it was just always that way. The City of Shade returned from the Plane of Shadow during the 3e era, when the Plane of Shadow, Demiplane of Dread, and Negative Energy Plane were all different places, so you can't really analogize that with Dark Sun's Shadowfell, which is sort of a mashup of all three and has always been like that.

Anyway, no, Domains of Dread can't escape from the demiplane in anything short of a Grand Conjunction. Netherese wizards transporting cities from the shadow plane isn't at all a similar thing because the Plane of Shadow isn't a prison.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby blackaeon » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:37 am

ripvanwormer wrote:That gets complicated because 4th edition FR was a continuation of 3e Realms canon while 4e Dark Sun was a clean reboot. So the Realms has an incharacter justification for why the Plane of Shadow became the Shadowfell (Shar messed with it) and in 4th edition Dark Sun it was just always that way. The City of Shade returned from the Plane of Shadow during the 3e era, when the Plane of Shadow, Demiplane of Dread, and Negative Energy Plane were all different places, so you can't really analogize that with Dark Sun's Shadowfell, which is sort of a mashup of all three and has always been like that.

Anyway, no, Domains of Dread can't escape from the demiplane in anything short of a Grand Conjunction. Netherese wizards transporting cities from the shadow plane isn't at all a similar thing because the Plane of Shadow isn't a prison.


What Rip said. Other than the Grand Conjunction itself (which failed due to heroic interference and re-shaped a good portion of the Demiplane of Dread), the only other known escapee of Ravenloft (well, besides Lord Soth, and that was due to Tracy Hickman's executive meddling, from what I understand) was Vecna, who actually absorbed the power of Iuz and nearly broke the entire multiverse (by using the Demiplane of Dread to shunt himself into Sigil, becoming perhaps the only god to invade the Cage) in the process.

As per the sex change for Thakok-An and Kalid-Ma, I was always sort of baffled by that, and kept it partially; I had Thakok-An become female but kept Kalid-Ma as such, partially because of the lack of real female representation amongst the Dragon-Kings (or would-be ones) and in part because it seemed more interesting to have a homoerotic take on the lengths Thakok-An would go to.

Ultimately, the bigger problem with the whole situation (albeit not much of one, given the reboot for 4th ed) is reconciling the timeline for things in Kalidnay since its transport. Since Kalidnay was destroyed appx. Free Year -1228/174 King's Age (Year of King's Contemplation)/570 CR in Ravenloft, and Van Richten couldn't have visited before 726 CR, either Ahmose Tanit was killed around Free Year -1372/172 King's Age/426 CR Ravenloft, or one of two things happened. Either a) Kalidnay floated around in the Mists a lot longer than anyone anticipated, in effect becoming the third domain (after Barovia and Forlorn) but didn't join the Core, especially since everyone seemed to have forgotten about Athas but remembered Ahmose just fine (at least, as a legend), or b) some really temporally-distorted kind of stuff happened. If not, then the future appearance of Castle Tristenoira in Ravenloft (which is set in the Core's future) happens during the past of Athas, roughly a decade or two before Oronis became the first avangion. I guess it could be C) they forgot about Athas but not Ahmose, but that seems like a bit of a cop-out.

God, this time stuff hurts my head.
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Re: Kalidnay Ravenloft/Dark Sun Crossover.

Postby Big Mac » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:02 pm

blackaeon wrote:Ultimately, the bigger problem with the whole situation (albeit not much of one, given the reboot for 4th ed) is reconciling the timeline for things in Kalidnay since its transport. Since Kalidnay was destroyed appx. Free Year -1228/174 King's Age (Year of King's Contemplation)/570 CR in Ravenloft, and Van Richten couldn't have visited before 726 CR, either Ahmose Tanit was killed around Free Year -1372/172 King's Age/426 CR Ravenloft, or one of two things happened. Either a) Kalidnay floated around in the Mists a lot longer than anyone anticipated, in effect becoming the third domain (after Barovia and Forlorn) but didn't join the Core, especially since everyone seemed to have forgotten about Athas but remembered Ahmose just fine (at least, as a legend), or b) some really temporally-distorted kind of stuff happened. If not, then the future appearance of Castle Tristenoira in Ravenloft (which is set in the Core's future) happens during the past of Athas, roughly a decade or two before Oronis became the first avangion. I guess it could be C) they forgot about Athas but not Ahmose, but that seems like a bit of a cop-out.

God, this time stuff hurts my head.


I suppose that the problem is not so much connecting the campaign settings, but trying to make all the timelines line up.

If Kalidnay got pulled out of its original place on the timeline, when it was sucked over to Ravenloft, it might be easier to make the events line up.

There is a Spelljammer product called The Astromundi Cluster that has rules to stop people using Planescape as an escape mechanism. (If you go to the planes from The Astromundi Cluster, you always get sent back to your original starting point when you try to go back to the Material Plane) Maybe something similar could be done for Ravenloft. i.e. if Kalidnay needed to shift backwards 75 years (or whatever) all Dark Sun natives who get sucked into The Mists could also get shifted backwards by exactly the same amount. And any Dark Sun natives (or Kadinay decendents) who manage to escape Ravenloft could automatically be dropped out on Athas and shifted to the correct place in the timeline.

(If that was done, it could also mean that someone could add Arcane Age domains to Ravenloft. :idea: )
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