[2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Athas and the sorcerer-kings.
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[2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:31 pm

For a project, I've been trying to find the level of the various Sorcerer-King/Dragon in Athas...I'm sure I say that indicated somewhere. I may be blind or not looking in the right place, because I cannort find it anymore

Could anyone help me with which book(s) we can find this information.

Thanks
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Sturm » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:47 am

Maybe it's TSR 2408 Dragon Kings what you are searching for, page 37 and page 154?
But if you mean stats of the individual sorcerer kings, they are on page 10 (only their level)
Levels are also given under each city in the TSR 2438 Dark Sun Boxed Campaing Setting Revised
The Dark Sun 4ed Creature Catalogue has more stats from page 102 to 121, their levels are increased it seems.
I think that's all, but I could have missed something.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:01 pm

Sturm wrote:Maybe it's TSR 2408 Dragon Kings what you are searching for, page 37 and page 154?
But if you mean stats of the individual sorcerer kings, they are on page 10 (only their level)


I'll have to double check at home this weekend, but I think page 10 is the one I'm looking for.

Thank you
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby The Dark » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:12 am

Boneguard wrote:
Sturm wrote:Maybe it's TSR 2408 Dragon Kings what you are searching for, page 37 and page 154?
But if you mean stats of the individual sorcerer kings, they are on page 10 (only their level)


I'll have to double check at home this weekend, but I think page 10 is the one I'm looking for.

Thank you
Yeah, that's where the levels of each SK are noted (with Kalak's ritual on page 11 talking about how he was trying to go from 21 to 30 in one go). So you don't have to wait all week:
21st-level: Andropinis of Balic, Lalali-Puy of Gulg, Abalach-Re of Raam, Hamanu of Urik, (Kalak of Tyr)
22nd-level: Tectuktitlay of Draj
23rd-level: Shadow King of Nibenay

Page 40 of Dragon Kings has the illustration of each stage of metamorphosis.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:20 am

Cool, thank you. It does save me a lot of research.

And to this we could add Dregoth (sp) at 29th level.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Lord Torath » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:46 am

Dregoth has conflicting information. The fluff in City by the Silt Sea says the other SK's joined up to stop him before he entered the "animalistic phase", which goes from level 25 through level 29, with reason finally restored at level 30 (according to Dragon Kings). But it also says he was level 29 at the time. So your mileage may vary.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:03 am

IIRC he's level 29th in the revised and expended boxed set.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Jayce » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:09 am

Perhaps undeath did not stop him from advancing further?
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:25 pm

An interesting thought.

Although doable in 3rd ed (and I believe there is a fanon adventure where he try to get to 30th level), I don't know in 2nd adventure. It was never clarifier whether liches (he is essential a lich) or any undead can increase their level.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Lord Torath » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:23 am

Jayce wrote:Perhaps undeath did not stop him from advancing further?
More likely the person writing City by the Silt Sea forgot the specifics about the animalistic phase, while remembering that it existed.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Jayce » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:32 pm

Boneguard wrote:An interesting thought.

Although doable in 3rd ed (and I believe there is a fanon adventure where he try to get to 30th level), I don't know in 2nd adventure. It was never clarifier whether liches (he is essential a lich) or any undead can increase their level.


Well going by 2nd Edition Ravenloft stuff (most prominently Requiem: The Grim Harvest) I don't think there's necessarily anything in 2E that actively precludes undead characters from increasing their level, apart from the fact that most undead are classless to begin with.

Lord Torath wrote:More likely the person writing City by the Silt Sea forgot the specifics about the animalistic phase, while remembering that it existed.


Well, yes, but that doesn't mean we can't retroactively make it fit. :lol:
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:23 pm

True, I forgot about Requiem...and I own it. I could just apply the Lich rules and voilà.

Thank you every one for your help and comments, it's truly appreciated.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Alzrius » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:16 am

The Dark wrote:
Boneguard wrote:
Sturm wrote:Maybe it's TSR 2408 Dragon Kings what you are searching for, page 37 and page 154?
But if you mean stats of the individual sorcerer kings, they are on page 10 (only their level)


I'll have to double check at home this weekend, but I think page 10 is the one I'm looking for.

Thank you
Yeah, that's where the levels of each SK are noted (with Kalak's ritual on page 11 talking about how he was trying to go from 21 to 30 in one go). So you don't have to wait all week:
21st-level: Andropinis of Balic, Lalali-Puy of Gulg, Abalach-Re of Raam, Hamanu of Urik, (Kalak of Tyr)
22nd-level: Tectuktitlay of Draj
23rd-level: Shadow King of Nibenay

Page 40 of Dragon Kings has the illustration of each stage of metamorphosis.


I'm surprised no one has mentioned Beyond the Prism Pentad, which gives stat blocks for the remaining sorcerer-kings (Hamanu, Lalali-Puy, and Nibenay). It notes that Hamanu and Lalali-Puy are 23rd-level, and Nibenay is 24th-level.

Jayce wrote:Perhaps undeath did not stop him from advancing further?


Well, that idea kind of flies in the face of most of the Dregoth's current motivation, since he's said to be tormented by undeath preventing him from reaching the final stage of his transformation.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby The Dark » Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:07 pm

Alzrius wrote:
The Dark wrote:Yeah, that's where the levels of each SK are noted (with Kalak's ritual on page 11 talking about how he was trying to go from 21 to 30 in one go). So you don't have to wait all week:
21st-level: Andropinis of Balic, Lalali-Puy of Gulg, Abalach-Re of Raam, Hamanu of Urik, (Kalak of Tyr)
22nd-level: Tectuktitlay of Draj
23rd-level: Shadow King of Nibenay

Page 40 of Dragon Kings has the illustration of each stage of metamorphosis.


I'm surprised no one has mentioned Beyond the Prism Pentad, which gives stat blocks for the remaining sorcerer-kings (Hamanu, Lalali-Puy, and Nibenay). It notes that Hamanu and Lalali-Puy are 23rd-level, and Nibenay is 24th-level.
Interesting. So, from Dragon Kings to Prism Pentad, Hamanu and Lalali-Puy each gained two levels, and Nibenay gained one.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:19 pm

I would have to check on my material to see how long (gane time) passed between these 2 sources. Gaining 2 level at that level seems a lot
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Alzrius » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:58 pm

Boneguard wrote:I would have to check on my material to see how long (gane time) passed between these 2 sources. Gaining 2 level at that level seems a lot


Well, Dragon Kings seems to discuss the sorcerer-kings in the context of shortly after the events of The Verdant Passage/Freedom, whereas Beyond the Prism Pentad takes place immediately after The Cerulean Storm, so I'd say that's a gap of ten years or so.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby The Dark » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:03 am

Boneguard wrote:I would have to check on my material to see how long (gane time) passed between these 2 sources. Gaining 2 level at that level seems a lot

Dragons don't require all that much XP. From 21 to 23 takes 800,000, and they could have been at 399,999 and still been level 21.

The more surprising thing is probably that there were still 21st-level dragons that long after they began the metamorphosis.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby night_druid » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:12 am

The Dark wrote:Dragons don't require all that much XP. From 21 to 23 takes 800,000, and they could have been at 399,999 and still been level 21.

The more surprising thing is probably that there were still 21st-level dragons that long after they began the metamorphosis.


I get the impression it wasn't a matter of XP, it was a matter of reagents. Leveling up as a dragon wasn't just "earn enough XP, roll some dice", it required some pretty hard to acquire materials (I can't remember if it was Dragon Kings or Defilers & Preservers that detailed the process, and I'm not sure which overrode which). And since there were so few dragons, who all hated one another, its likely nobody really knew the "next step" beyond the one that got them to their current level (those of higher level were not about to share with their hated rivals).
Last edited by night_druid on Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [2nd edition] Help in finding the Dragons level

Postby Boneguard » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:37 am

Ok, 2 levels in 10 years is reasonable at those level.

And I agree with night_Druid, XP gain is a problem/minor thing as they are not doing the usually things that would net you XP...Except maybe the political backstabing and research.

The biggest problem for them (in my understanding) is the lack of reference. Every Dragon are blindly trying to figure out how to get to the next level (and prevention their research to be stolen by other Dragons). I would not be surprise if every Dragons follow a different path to each and every of their levels.
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