About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Athas and the sorcerer-kings.
The Book-House: Find Dark Sun products.

Moderator: Idabrius

About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby Zeromaru X » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:25 pm

In 4e Dark Sun, the gods existed until the final days of the Green Age, when they were wiped out by the Primordials, and the few survivors were exiled of Athas (and reading the Princes of Apocalypse appendix about converting that adventure to Dark Sun, 5e also follows this storyline). The 4e DSCS also states that arcane magic was born as a fault in the world because the deaths of the gods, and that Rajaat somewhat founded it and experimented with it, creating defiling and that stuff that I know is the same in the 2e Dark Sun.

But, there are any mentions of the gods in the 2e version of Dark Sun? Beyond that they don't exist on Athas, of course. What about the origin of arcane magic? I know Rajaat was the one who first wielded its power, but founding a power source doesn't mean the same as creating it.
User avatar
Zeromaru X
The Elder Wizard
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:24 am

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby agathokles » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:08 pm

Athas is part of the same multiverse as all the other AD&D settings. Thus, magic is essentially a natural phenomenon and gods exist, but they can't communicate or empower clerics on Athas.
agathokles
Red Dragon
 
Posts: 6594
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby night_druid » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:52 pm

As far as I know, its a "yes and no" answer. Athas has its share of ruined temples but I don't think it was ever made clear if gods existed in the Blue/Green Ages and perished/abandoned Athas or if those gods were false. The influence of gods do not appear in the timeline, if that means anything.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green
User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
 
Posts: 5987
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby agathokles » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:13 pm

night_druid wrote:As far as I know, its a "yes and no" answer. Athas has its share of ruined temples but I don't think it was ever made clear if gods existed in the Blue/Green Ages and perished/abandoned Athas or if those gods were false. The influence of gods do not appear in the timeline, if that means anything.


There is always a degree of ambiguity in the text. For example, the Meorty (athasian mummies) are said to be created by "the necromancies of high priests and lost psionic powers". However, they are either psionicists or fighters, not clerics. This may indicate that the Green Age priests were actually psionicists, but it is not explicitly said.
As night_druid says, however, if there ever were gods, they did not take part in the Cleansing War, and in any case they were already gone by the Green Age, since Rajaat, the Champions and a few other beings from those times (Pyreens, in particular, but also some of the undead, such as the Meorty themselves) are still around and would know about them.

On the other hand, there are likely no survivors of the Blue Age. Even the Rhul-thaun, the only direct descendants of the Rhulisti (the original halfling population of the Blue Age Athas) have no religion beyond elemental worship. BTW, this seems to indicate that religion in the conventional sense, beyond elemental priests and druidism, was a feature of the Green Age alone, quite possibly a political tool used by psionicist sects. The Rhulisti don't appear to have had even it, as their culture focused almost exclusively on the "life-shaping" skills -- a kind of semi-scientific, semi-arcane skill that enabled the Rhulisti to modify existing life-forms to make tools and other useful items; akin to extremely advanced bioengineering, but achieved via a combination of selection and manipulation of life-force (this is specifically mentioned to be similar but fundamentally different from both magic and psionics).

GP
agathokles
Red Dragon
 
Posts: 6594
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby Paladyn » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:40 pm

In "Verdant Passage" there a shrine in Under Tyr described. As far as I remember it is also said that gods had been always silent on Athas.
User avatar
Paladyn
Gnoll
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:09 pm
Location: City by the River

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby Big Mac » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:43 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:In 4e Dark Sun, the gods existed until the final days of the Green Age, when they were wiped out by the Primordials, and the few survivors were exiled of Athas (and reading the Princes of Apocalypse appendix about converting that adventure to Dark Sun, 5e also follows this storyline). The 4e DSCS also states that arcane magic was born as a fault in the world because the deaths of the gods, and that Rajaat somewhat founded it and experimented with it, creating defiling and that stuff that I know is the same in the 2e Dark Sun.

But, there are any mentions of the gods in the 2e version of Dark Sun? Beyond that they don't exist on Athas, of course. What about the origin of arcane magic? I know Rajaat was the one who first wielded its power, but founding a power source doesn't mean the same as creating it.


Good question. Not one I know the answer to, sadly, but a good question.

I don't think you should limit this to the 2e Dark Sun products. It might also be something that was touched upon in a novel or a comic.

I know that ship-floaters are able to float ships on silt because they are somehow able to tap into the past and float on a sea of water that is no longer there. So if it is possible to do that, perhaps people are able to connect to long-gone powers in temples and stuff. Maybe that sort of thing could be a way that an author would namecheck a god from the Green Age. :?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 21594
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby Big Mac » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:46 pm

Paladyn wrote:In "Verdant Passage" there a shrine in Under Tyr described. As far as I remember it is also said that gods had been always silent on Athas.


That's a difficult concept to make work as people that never had any contact with gods wouldn't necessary have any need to talk about them. I wonder if silent gods would be something similar to Eberron, where the people believed in them, but never spoke to them directly. :?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 21594
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby Zeromaru X » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:29 pm

Well, 4e Dark Sun never says anything about the Blue Age, beyond that is a long forgotten time that currently only the Sorcerer-Kings know about it.

In the 4e DSCS and in Princes of Apocalypse (5e), it is only mentioned that the gods were either killed by Primordials or exiled of Athas in the "final years" of the Green Age, nearly some time before Rajaat discovered arcane magic. It is said defiling was possible because there was a fault in arcane magic because there were no gods on Athas.
User avatar
Zeromaru X
The Elder Wizard
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:24 am

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby agathokles » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:16 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Paladyn wrote:In "Verdant Passage" there a shrine in Under Tyr described. As far as I remember it is also said that gods had been always silent on Athas.


That's a difficult concept to make work as people that never had any contact with gods wouldn't necessary have any need to talk about them. I wonder if silent gods would be something similar to Eberron, where the people believed in them, but never spoke to them directly. :?


It works fine in the RW... :twisted:

GP
agathokles
Red Dragon
 
Posts: 6594
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

Re: About gods and the origin of arcane magic

Postby apotheot » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:13 am

agathokles wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Paladyn wrote:In "Verdant Passage" there a shrine in Under Tyr described. As far as I remember it is also said that gods had been always silent on Athas.


That's a difficult concept to make work as people that never had any contact with gods wouldn't necessary have any need to talk about them. I wonder if silent gods would be something similar to Eberron, where the people believed in them, but never spoke to them directly. :?


It works fine in the RW... :twisted:

GP

This was my understanding of that as well.
apotheot
Ogre
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:19 pm


Return to Dark Sun

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests