Dragonborn and Tieflings

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Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Havard » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:19 am

I am now, more than ever convinced that I would like to see these two races linked to the Milennian Empire on Davania. Tieflings will be survivors of cults from the Milennian Empire who made pacts with Fiends.

The Dragonborn will be remnants of the Golden Empire in Brasol, once enemies of the Tieflings. The Dragonborn are devout followers of the Diamond Dragon, who replaces Bahamut on Mystara.

Wars like that of the Wrath of the Immortals, and later the Orc Wars of AC1020-1025 have brought more and more of these races to the Known World by way of the Hinterlands, where the Thyatians and Heldanners have been recruiting mercenaries.

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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby JohnBiles » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:44 am

Havard wrote:I am now, more than ever convinced that I would like to see these two races linked to the Milennian Empire on Davania. Tieflings will be survivors of cults from the Milennian Empire who made pacts with Fiends.

The Dragonborn will be remnants of the Golden Empire in Brasol, once enemies of the Tieflings. The Dragonborn are devout followers of the Diamond Dragon, who replaces Bahamut on Mystara.



I like the idea of Dragonborn connected to the Golden Empire, but why associate Tieflings most of all with Milennia more than other ancient empires where pacts could happen?
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Havard » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:48 pm

JohnBiles wrote:I like the idea of Dragonborn connected to the Golden Empire, but why associate Tieflings most of all with Milennia more than other ancient empires where pacts could happen?


Ah I never explained that. The original idea came from a thread over at RPGnet where someone mentioned that Tieflings in the 4E PHB have greek sounding names.

Also, I like the idea of using such new elements to flesh out blank spots on the Master Set map instead of forcing everything into the Known World. Especially if we use the "WotI produces need for mercenaries" explanation for having such characters in the Known World, even if they originally come from elsewhere.

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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby BotWizo » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:46 pm

Havard wrote:
JohnBiles wrote:I like the idea of Dragonborn connected to the Golden Empire, but why associate Tieflings most of all with Milennia more than other ancient empires where pacts could happen?


Ah I never explained that. The original idea came from a thread over at RPGnet where someone mentioned that Tieflings in the 4E PHB have greek sounding names.

Also, I like the idea of using such new elements to flesh out blank spots on the Master Set map instead of forcing everything into the Known World. Especially if we use the "WotI produces need for mercenaries" explanation for having such characters in the Known World, even if they originally come from elsewhere.

Havard



Havard,

I like this idea, since getting back to mystara I would probably set many of the new 4e races into Davania and other places on the map that do not have much "official" material for, and then just like you I won't have to cram them into the know world. plus this may drive players to explore the whole world, and not just stick to the known world. This gives you the added bonus that when they players travel to an undeveloped spot (literature wise on the map) you don't have to work frantically to make something up you at least have an outline of what you would like in that area.
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Dwk3 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:50 am

Has anyone tried following up on the ideas in the Blackmoor 4E supplement?

Dragonborn are described as living in mountains near Blackmoor. The Known World region certainly has enough unexplored mountains to provide homelands for dragonborn, and the Orcs of Thar supplement mentions some lizard men in Thar's Legion. Since there are no swamps anywhere near the Broken Lands, maybe those guys are actually dragonborn?

The Blackmoor tieflings were described as initially more human looking than the standard 4E tieflings, but gradually looking less human with each generation. The available information suggests that certain groups in Blackmoor worked to wipe out the tieflings and eventually may have succeeded. However, given their ability score bonuses, they certainly would have a talent for arcane magic, and given the fact that children of tieflings by other races are always tieflings, any tieflings who managed to get away from Blackmoor could easily come to dominate whatever world they escaped to as they interbred with the local humans or their equivalents. We need only suggest that a few Blackmoor tieflings found their way to Old Alphatia to get some very interesting results -- for one, the "tieflings" on Mystara in 1000 AC would actually be the second most numerous race after humans....
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby JohnBiles » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:21 am

Dwk3 wrote:Has anyone tried following up on the ideas in the Blackmoor 4E supplement?

Dragonborn are described as living in mountains near Blackmoor. The Known World region certainly has enough unexplored mountains to provide homelands for dragonborn, and the Orcs of Thar supplement mentions some lizard men in Thar's Legion. Since there are no swamps anywhere near the Broken Lands, maybe those guys are actually dragonborn?

The Blackmoor tieflings were described as initially more human looking than the standard 4E tieflings, but gradually looking less human with each generation. The available information suggests that certain groups in Blackmoor worked to wipe out the tieflings and eventually may have succeeded. However, given their ability score bonuses, they certainly would have a talent for arcane magic, and given the fact that children of tieflings by other races are always tieflings, any tieflings who managed to get away from Blackmoor could easily come to dominate whatever world they escaped to as they interbred with the local humans or their equivalents. We need only suggest that a few Blackmoor tieflings found their way to Old Alphatia to get some very interesting results -- for one, the "tieflings" on Mystara in 1000 AC would actually be the second most numerous race after humans....


Broken Lands 8 mile hex map has 15 hexes of swampy terrain, actually. But yes, having Dragonborn there makes sense to me. Having Dragonborn on Skothar who survived the fall of Blackmoor would also be cool. (I have Blackmoor 4E. It has many cool ideas in it though the class designs have major issues.)

And having Blackmoor as the origin point of all or at least some tieflings also works quite well for fitting them into Mystara; Blackmoor could have scattered them all over.
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Havard » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:32 pm

JohnBiles wrote:Broken Lands 8 mile hex map has 15 hexes of swampy terrain, actually. But yes, having Dragonborn there makes sense to me. Having Dragonborn on Skothar who survived the fall of Blackmoor would also be cool.



Associating the Dragonborn with the Brokenlands seems a bit odd to me. Making them survivors of Blackmoor on Skothar would work quite well though!

(I have Blackmoor 4E. It has many cool ideas in it though the class designs have major issues.)


Agreed. The best things about Blackmoor: The First Campaign is the setting overview and ideas rather than the crunch.

And having Blackmoor as the origin point of all or at least some tieflings also works quite well for fitting them into Mystara; Blackmoor could have scattered them all over.


It would have been interesting to see how the designers planned to make this develop into the Age of the Wolf. I could see the Tieflings becoming more dominant in the Empire of Thonia, making Thonia a sort of equivalent of Bael Turath...

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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby JohnBiles » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:41 pm

There should be some Dragonborn in the Broken Lands just because anything that isn't a BECMI player race but walks on two legs and is smaller than a giant lives somewhere in the Broken Lands, it seems like :)

Seriously, I'm thining a small civilization of Blackmoor surviving Dragonborn in Skothar, maybe in the mountains by modern Thonia, would be cool.

Also, I think someone suggested putting Dragonborn on the Adri Varna and I like that idea. It puts them close enough for PCs to show up in the Known World without having to make huge canon changes to fit them in. I also think Glantri should have a Dragonborn noble who is trying to organize a Dragonborn Princedom in the future, maybe competing with Haaskins and others for the Sablestone area. He'd be trying to entice in settlers from the Adri Varna and they'd be pulling people from the rest of Glantri.

Hmm. Here's a suggestion for Tieflings.

You could quite easily have several different times humans interbred with things of other planes or got weirdly tainted by those planes to become something other. So you would have one group of Tieflings descended from the Blackmoorian ones and another group of people in Millennia who interbred with things during the decadence before the fall, then were left behind by the immortals and scattered when the Millennian civilization was destroyed.

Eventually, some of them ended up among the tribes Thyatis has recently conquered, bringing some of them to Thyatis, who find them fascinating. From there, PC Tieflings can show up across the Known World.

Also, Alphatia would have imported some of the Blackmoor survivors from Skothar in their slave raiding and spread Tieflings across Alphatia and the Isle of Dawn and Belissaria.

I think this makes them an option and gives them some interesting history without having to take a chainsaw to the canon.
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Bonetti » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:48 am

JohnBiles wrote:Also, I think someone suggested putting Dragonborn on the Adri Varna and I like that idea.

I think that's the second half of this post (Retconning them into Mystara) by James Mishler. I rather like it, and that's how I'm fitting both groups into my campaign (once it starts in a few weeks).
JohnBiles wrote:I also think Glantri should have a Dragonborn noble who is trying to organize a Dragonborn Princedom in the future, maybe competing with Haaskins and others for the Sablestone area. He'd be trying to entice in settlers from the Adri Varna and they'd be pulling people from the rest of Glantri.

Alternatively (or in addition to), a Dragonborn might be attempting to create a new principality (to join Glantri in the near future) on the plateau (along the edge) rather than within the Glantri borders?

That could potentially also open conflict, or at least some concern, from Wendar as Glantri potentially expands to the northwest. Granted, it's not the best territory in the world, but who knows what artifacts still remain in the ruins of Arkhosia?
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Dwk3 » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:59 am

Of the two new 4E races, the Dragonborn seem to be the easier one to place. As an ancient, mountain dwelling race, they could be in many places, easily thriving in an environment that few others even want to visit, let alone live in. The only region I would have trouble placing them in is the Hollow World -- their survival strategy is just too good to ever put their culture in danger of extinction.

For Tieflings, the main question is whether the appearance or the culture and psychology is more important. Diaboli look very much like Tieflings but have a totally different culture and psychology. Alphatians, on the other hand, can easily be seen as thinking and acting exactly like Tieflings -- all they lack are the horns and tails to make them overtly rather than subtly inhuman in appearance. It is only if you want all of the features of Tieflings in a single package that you would need to alter the setting at all to accommodate them.
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Havard » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:43 pm

Dwk3 wrote:For Tieflings, the main question is whether the appearance or the culture and psychology is more important. Diaboli look very much like Tieflings but have a totally different culture and psychology. Alphatians, on the other hand, can easily be seen as thinking and acting exactly like Tieflings -- all they lack are the horns and tails to make them overtly rather than subtly inhuman in appearance. It is only if you want all of the features of Tieflings in a single package that you would need to alter the setting at all to accommodate them.


Good points. I would be hesitant to make all alphatians into Tieflings, but I could easily accept that there are many Alphatians who are in fact Tieflings due to that races dealings with planar creatures.

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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby JohnBiles » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:55 pm

Havard wrote:
Dwk3 wrote:For Tieflings, the main question is whether the appearance or the culture and psychology is more important. Diaboli look very much like Tieflings but have a totally different culture and psychology. Alphatians, on the other hand, can easily be seen as thinking and acting exactly like Tieflings -- all they lack are the horns and tails to make them overtly rather than subtly inhuman in appearance. It is only if you want all of the features of Tieflings in a single package that you would need to alter the setting at all to accommodate them.


Good points. I would be hesitant to make all alphatians into Tieflings, but I could easily accept that there are many Alphatians who are in fact Tieflings due to that races dealings with planar creatures.

Havard


I would tend to think Alphatia should be home to a mix of humans, tieflings, and genasi due to the various dealings of the Alphatians with extra-planars. Along with other magic using races.
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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby agathokles » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:18 pm

JohnBiles wrote:I would tend to think Alphatia should be home to a mix of humans, tieflings, and genasi due to the various dealings of the Alphatians with extra-planars. Along with other magic using races.


In a pure Alphatian campaign, I'd probably take a lightweight approach, associating Genasi with Old Alphatia (Followers of Fire and Air, including both Cypri and Pure Alphatians), Humans with the Yannivey, Dunael and other Mystaran natives, and Tieflings with "modern" Alphatians of mixed blood. There would be no significant differences in appearance among them, anyway.

In a KW campaign, all Tieflings might well come from Alphatia (since there are Alphatian-descended people in Thyatis and Glantri, that would not be a problem for players anyway).

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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Havard » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:13 am

agathokles wrote:
JohnBiles wrote:I would tend to think Alphatia should be home to a mix of humans, tieflings, and genasi due to the various dealings of the Alphatians with extra-planars. Along with other magic using races.


That makes sense. I have never made use of Genasi in any campaign, but this would be a good way of introducing them.

In a KW campaign, all Tieflings might well come from Alphatia (since there are Alphatian-descended people in Thyatis and Glantri, that would not be a problem for players anyway).


I might have mentioned this before, but G:KoM's "Progeny" could easily be replaced by Tieflings...

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Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings

Postby Birchbeer » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:56 pm

A quick thread resurrection...

What if Tieflings are somehow related to Nagpa. In this view, the people that fled Varellya before the curse was cast did not escape unharmed. They escaped the rebirth and accursed forms, but they have feature of tieflings that continue through the generations. I'm also thinking one of the pacts of warlocks, the infernal, came from Varellya originally. The exodus of people brought it with them.
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