Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 3E deites?

Postby Havard » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:45 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:Yes, but if she is by definition a patron of Death, I don't expect her to support Undeath or similar; nothing Entropic, to use a BECMI term. Nor life, nor anything which is not related to her portfolio.
But if I port her to an Entropic Immortal, I might need to change that Immortal to support the idea in the adventure.
For example, there is a 4e adventure in which Orcus tries to upset the balance and usurp the place of the RQ. If I ported this adventure to Mystara, and RQ=Nyx, I would have a fight between two Entropic Immortals...who cares? (it would not even be much of a fight considering the position held by Nyx as Hierarch).
Now, if the RQ was a Neutral Immortal of the Sphere of Time (natural decay of things=death), things would be much more interesting: a conflict between Spheres. And it would preserve the respective portfolios: death != undeath

But...I suppose we can agree to disagree :D


You know, I like this discussion Antionio, because it is making me rethink how I view Nyx. You are focusing on her as an Entropic and as a patroness of Undead, while I have always thought of her in a different way because she is Neutral. Rethinking this though, I am wondering how much it really makes sense to have a Neutral Patroness of Undeath. Seems a bit contradictory doesn't it?

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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 3E deites?

Postby agathokles » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:54 pm

I see the problem this way. Suppose you want to port said adventure to Karameikos. Karameikan Immortals include Halav, Petra, Zirchev, Chardastes, Vanya, Asterius, Ilsundal, Kagyar and Tarastia, plus Orcus, Demogorgon, Leptar and other entropics and assorted bad guys (like Nyx, Ranivorous, Kaarash, maybe Hel, Jammudaru and Masawu if you use them as the patrons of the Iron Ring). None of them fits the Raven Queen exactly (the best fit in Mystara, as mentioned above, is Saimpt Loup, who unfortunately is completely unknown in Karameikos), so you're stranded with either Nyx or an Immortal who has no connection with death, but can support the role of the Raven Queen in the given adventure (e.g., if you take Sleeper in the Tomb of Dreams, the role of the Raven Queen is just to be the patron of an evil paladin a century ago and have a monastery somewhere -- Vanya fits perfectly for the purpose of the adventure, even if the theme is totally different).

It may be disappointing, but remember that the adventure has not be designed for Mystara, so some measure of adaptation will be required, no matter which correspondence we draw.

Of course, you can choose to find better correspondences, and then shoehorn those Immortals into whatever region you plan to set your adventure in.

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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 3E deites?

Postby Ashtagon » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:54 pm

tbh, I could even see a patron of undeath as being lawful, since they oppose change, trying to make a creature stay as it is forever in an eternal undeath.

This is how GW treats its Warhammer undead.
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 3E deites?

Postby rabindranath72 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:44 pm

Havard wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:Yes, but if she is by definition a patron of Death, I don't expect her to support Undeath or similar; nothing Entropic, to use a BECMI term. Nor life, nor anything which is not related to her portfolio.
But if I port her to an Entropic Immortal, I might need to change that Immortal to support the idea in the adventure.
For example, there is a 4e adventure in which Orcus tries to upset the balance and usurp the place of the RQ. If I ported this adventure to Mystara, and RQ=Nyx, I would have a fight between two Entropic Immortals...who cares? (it would not even be much of a fight considering the position held by Nyx as Hierarch).
Now, if the RQ was a Neutral Immortal of the Sphere of Time (natural decay of things=death), things would be much more interesting: a conflict between Spheres. And it would preserve the respective portfolios: death != undeath

But...I suppose we can agree to disagree :D


You know, I like this discussion Antionio, because it is making me rethink how I view Nyx. You are focusing on her as an Entropic and as a patroness of Undead, while I have always thought of her in a different way because she is Neutral. Rethinking this though, I am wondering how much it really makes sense to have a Neutral Patroness of Undeath. Seems a bit contradictory doesn't it?

Havard

I always take into account the main focus of a Sphere, rather than alignments (after all, it's true that each Sphere has a main alignment, but all other alignments exist). As I said, I do not have a firm grasp of how things work in WotI, but the Immortal set makes clear that Entropy is strongly tied to undeath. Another way of looking at Entropy is to consider it as a malignant version of the Sphere of Time. Decaying outside a cycle of rebirth.
I can also totally see a Chaotic Immortal of Time sponsoring Avengers, for example (the Evil Paladin example reported by agathokles).
In my view, if we look at the deities of 4e, the Raven Queen would be a Neutral Immortal of Time. Gruumsh, Llolth and Tharizdun (the Hierarch?) would be all Chaotic Immortals of Entropy. Vecna instead, would be a Neutral (or even Lawful, perhaps!) Immortal of Entropy.

Anyway, this discussion has helped me focus on the concepts I was developing. Thanks for sharing ideas!
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 3E deites?

Postby rabindranath72 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:46 pm

Ashtagon wrote:tbh, I could even see a patron of undeath as being lawful, since they oppose change, trying to make a creature stay as it is forever in an eternal undeath.

This is how GW treats its Warhammer undead.

That's a good idea. Vecna might fit this description (though perhaps neutrality would be a better fit, considering that he focuses on knowledge and secrets).
Last edited by rabindranath72 on Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 3E deites?

Postby rabindranath72 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:49 pm

Besides knowledge, a neutral patron of undeath might strive to make undeath considered as another "natural" state of existence, but it would nonetheless be opposed by the other Spheres (Time in particular) since this nature is by definition destructive.
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

Postby dfryer36 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:47 pm

Has anyone considered using Hel as a replacement for the Raven Queen? She is still in the Entropy sphere but she tends more towards the death godess type rather than a patron of the undead. I would definately put her forward as a candidate for the Raven Queen's replacement.
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

Postby Dwk3 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:52 pm

dfryer36 wrote:Has anyone considered using Hel as a replacement for the Raven Queen? She is still in the Entropy sphere but she tends more towards the death godess type rather than a patron of the undead. I would definately put her forward as a candidate for the Raven Queen's replacement.


One thing to consider is that for 4E purposes you want to match domains, channel divinity powers, and general beliefs rather than personalities of the deities or Immortals in question. Clerics of Hel, as depicted in Gaz 7, are a rather nasty lot who are not considered suitable as player characters. I think I would consider her more seriously if we didn't have a better match for the Raven Queen in another Northern Reaches Immortal (Odin).
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:16 am

For the purpose of Keep on the Shadowfell, you need an Immortal who would have some authority over the Shadowfell/Limbo, who Orcus would oppose and who the PCs would see as a more benign option. Nyx is pretty good for this, I think; while her portfolio isn't exactly like the Raven Queen's (she's a patron of entropy, undead, and the night, not fate and the dead), she fits the bill as a relatively benign figure who might (as the highest-ranking Immortal of Entropy) have a great deal of control over the Shadowfell (probably as part of a council with some Immortals of other spheres, but the Shadowfell is an undead-haunted place of death and she might be the strongest voice on such a council). Orcus, as wild and malevolent as he is, would obviously be someone most PCs wouldn't want to have take Nyx's place in this. It wouldn't be just a conflict between two Entropic Immortals, but a fight between a relatively benign Entropic Immortal and a completely psychotic one. Most PCs should understand that some entropy is essential, and it's better to have the more responsible voices in control of that sphere.

As for whether Orcus could actually make a credible bid against a full Hierarch... maybe, maybe not. If it's not about brute force and sheer Power, he might be able to do it. For some campaigns, changing the villain to Thanatos (or Orcus secretly backed by Thanatos) or Hel (or Orcus secretly backed by Hel) might make more sense.

Hel isn't clearly more benign than Orcus, so she wouldn't work for this case. That's not to say that she wouldn't be a decent substitute for the Raven Queen in other situations. Evil or unaligned clerics of the Raven Queen could be turned into clerics of Hel instead with little problems. In 4th edition, unaligned followers of evil deities aren't unusual, and I think the idea that some might be fairly innocuous people who simply desire to give the goddess of the dead her proper due is fine.

It depends on what you need the Raven Queen for, and what part of the world the adventure is set in.
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

Postby mister c » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:15 am

Definatley not canon, but I've used Oirtulev in my campaign as a sort of Vecna type immortal. It has been suggested that the Cult of Halav believe he became immortal, and he is secretive (after all, we know very little about him) and other stories have him as a lich. Didn't want to use Alphaks because of his focus on Alphatia.
This all came about as I am looking at converting Age of Worms 4th Ed Mystara, sheesh.
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

Postby MPA » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:25 am

You guys aren't doing conversions you are just making comparisons and making substitutions. Converting would be actually converting the stats from one game system to another.

Something the Rule Cyclopedia forbids doing for immortals and gods.
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

Postby Gawain_VIII » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:01 am

MPA wrote:You guys aren't doing conversions you are just making comparisons and making substitutions. Converting would be actually converting the stats from one game system to another.

Something the Rule Cyclopedia forbids doing for immortals and gods.

As the primary person who was working on the M3e conversion (before my HD crashed and I lost everything) I'll be the first to defend a conversation discussing comparisons & substitutions... that kind of brain-food is just the inspiration that some people need in order to create a substantial conversion which is comparable in quality to published material.

That said, it's generally bad ettiquite to criticize without offering positive, constructive feedback. Rather than complain that noone is converting, why not provide some of your own conversions? As most people's mothers tell them (not mine, btw): "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Oh, and BTW... Welcome to the Piazza. I really enjoyed your post summarizing the differences between Gods & Immortals. Keep up the good work, I'm sure to read more of your ideas with enthusiasm.

Cheers,
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Re: Immortal Equivalents of 4E deites?

Postby MPA » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:46 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:
MPA wrote:You guys aren't doing conversions you are just making comparisons and making substitutions. Converting would be actually converting the stats from one game system to another.

Something the Rule Cyclopedia forbids doing for immortals and gods.

As the primary person who was working on the M3e conversion (before my HD crashed and I lost everything) I'll be the first to defend a conversation discussing comparisons & substitutions... that kind of brain-food is just the inspiration that some people need in order to create a substantial conversion which is comparable in quality to published material.

That said, it's generally bad ettiquite to criticize without offering positive, constructive feedback. Rather than complain that noone is converting, why not provide some of your own conversions? As most people's mothers tell them (not mine, btw): "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Oh, and BTW... Welcome to the Piazza. I really enjoyed your post summarizing the differences between Gods & Immortals. Keep up the good work, I'm sure to read more of your ideas with enthusiasm.

Cheers,
Roger


I must have had a bad day. I'm not sure why I responded that way. I think that I take any changes or assumptions about Immortals personally. The point I was trying to make was that the RC specifically says Deities and Immortals should not be converted between games. And then other people who think Immortals are just super powered mortals (or superhero marvel comic like characters).

I don't think I offered a conversion, because I stuck with Aaron's request to not do so. Although his request was before 3.0. Both 3.0a and 4.0 are totally different game systems than 2.0.

Still you are correct, I should have been more tactful in my reply.
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