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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:56 pm
by shesheyan
agathokles wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:20 pm
It's not "my" article, and it's just an example. Another notable survivor walked away with but a sprained ankle.
Once more, these people are just 0-level or low-level in D&D terms, and obviously there are no statistics on high-level people, because they don't exist in the real world.
Yet with a no-cap rule even high level characters get zero chance of survival -- at 1d6 per 10' fall, falling from 10,000' means 1000d6, which would be lethal for 100% of the characters, not 99%.

GP
If I had 99% of dying during a surgery I wouldn't agree to the procedure... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Imho it's not good to remove «fear of death» for characters regardless of level. It leads to stupid decisions making... and annoying meta gaming as mentioned earlier. It also break my suspension of disbelief. We each have our pet peeves when it comes to D&D or d20 rules. Falling damage is mine. ;)

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:12 pm
by shesheyan
Tim Baker wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:14 pm
Rules such as falling damage hint at the type of play assumed. When there's a cap on falling damage, that's communicating that at high levels, heroes won't die from a fall, no matter the height. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean they free-fall for 500 feet, but it means that they've used their experience, skill, or power to figure out a way to break their fall sufficiently on the way down that they don't die. They may be scraped and bruised, but it takes more than that to die. Or perhaps they're just so awesome at high levels, they do a "super hero landing" and walk away from it. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but if it doesn't align with the tone you want for your game, it can be problematic.
About bold text : I would have you role-play this and make the appropriate rolls with the applicable penalties for operating under extreme stress and very short time frame. If you succeed it would result in a reduction in total damage based on the degree of success.

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:31 pm
by agathokles
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:56 pm
Imho it's not good to remove «fear of death» for characters regardless of level. It leads to stupid decisions making... and annoying meta gaming as mentioned earlier. It also break my suspension of disbelief. We each have our pet peeves when it comes to D&D or d20 rules. Falling damage is mine. ;)
You are removing fear of death only in the same way in which a high level character has nothing to fear from a goblin or a wolf. Simply put, the structure of D&D and related games implies that certain threats cease to be threats at sufficiently high levels. There's no specific reason why falls should differ from others (except personal tastes, but then we're back to the point that the change doesn't make sense per se).

GP

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:32 pm
by shesheyan
agathokles wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:31 pm
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:56 pm
Imho it's not good to remove «fear of death» for characters regardless of level. It leads to stupid decisions making... and annoying meta gaming as mentioned earlier. It also break my suspension of disbelief. We each have our pet peeves when it comes to D&D or d20 rules. Falling damage is mine. ;)
You are removing fear of death only in the same way in which a high level character has nothing to fear from a goblin or a wolf. Simply put, the structure of D&D and related games implies that certain threats cease to be threats at sufficiently high levels. There's no specific reason why falls should differ from others (except personal tastes, but then we're back to the point that the change doesn't make sense per se).

GP
«Falling» IS like a creature. The Challenge Rating varies with height. At some point the CR level should be too high for survivability even for a high level characters. You shouldn't be able to cheat death because of a mechanical and arbitrary decision that caps falling damage.

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:46 pm
by agathokles
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:32 pm
«Falling» IS like a creature. The Challenge Rating varies with height. At some point the CR level should be too high for survivability even for a high level characters. You shouldn't be able to cheat death because of a mechanical and arbitrary decision that caps falling damage.
No creature has infinitely high CR.
And neither you should die because of a mechanical and arbitrary decision that puts a minimum to falling damage prevents you from surviving a demonstrably survivable fall.

GP

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:55 pm
by shesheyan
agathokles wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:46 pm
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:32 pm
«Falling» IS like a creature. The Challenge Rating varies with height. At some point the CR level should be too high for survivability even for a high level characters. You shouldn't be able to cheat death because of a mechanical and arbitrary decision that caps falling damage.
No creature has infinitely high CR.
And neither you should die because of a mechanical and arbitrary decision that puts a minimum to falling damage prevents you from surviving a demonstrably survivable fall.

GP
Creatures like dragons scale in lethality according to life span. Just view extreme height as a very ancien dragon compare to a youngling for low height. If you want to go against a dragon that is vastly more powerful than you, YOU WILL die. :twisted:

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:20 am
by agathokles
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:55 pm
Creatures like dragons scale in lethality according to life span. Just view extreme height as a very ancien dragon compare to a youngling for low height. If you want to go against a dragon that is vastly more powerful than you, YOU WILL die. :twisted:
Still, there exist a character level at which even an ancient dragon is a reasonable challenge for the PC(s). There's no "infinitely old dragon" that is therefore unbeatable at any level. In several D&D iterations, even gods and demon lords are not automatically unbeatable. Instead, here you are talking of a threat that is basically unbeatable regardless of character level -- and, instead of using legendary threats for this purpose, you are using a mundane threat which is rather unjustified. As mentioned before, there are cases of survival from extreme height falls, even without significant damage, so there's no reason why a suitably high level character should not be able to survive -- the difference between high and low level characters is exactly that: what is extremely unlikely for a low level character becomes routine when the very high levels are reached. Dragons and falls are no different in this respect.

GP

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:04 am
by Angel Tarragon
As I read elsewhere, it is a matter of style the a GM wants. Just because on GM wants to allow the PCs to be able to challenge deities/gods, doesn't mean another has to. Same goes for grim and gritty...less hit points awarded per level and massive damage more lethal. It's just a matter of what the GM wants the players and characters to feel when immersed in the setting.

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:03 pm
by Sturm
I think it's a tough decision. On a way it is sad to kill a character for such a mundane thing as a fall but on the other way reason and proof tell us that only a VERY limited number of people survived high falls. And I doubt plate mail increases your chances :)
Recently I am more inclined to limit the HPs of high level characters because when they have too many, I think D&D becomes a bit ridiculously overpowered. But probably should a PC fall, I would give him a chance to survive, justifying the fact that a PC is a protagonist and the rules could bend for him/her occasionally.

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:53 pm
by shesheyan
Angel Tarragon wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:04 am
As I read elsewhere, it is a matter of style the a GM wants. Just because on GM wants to allow the PCs to be able to challenge deities/gods, doesn't mean another has to. Same goes for grim and gritty...less hit points awarded per level and massive damage more lethal. It's just a matter of what the GM wants the players and characters to feel when immersed in the setting.
Indeed ! ;)

I never subscribed to the notion that gods should be killable, or that characters can become Immortals. At my table (since 1981) gods never had stat blocks and can kill 20 level characters with the blink of an eye. That is why I home brew my campaigns. I never restricted HPs, as Sturm suggested, but my campaigns rarely go beyond 10-12th level, so there is no need. That is a level of power I am confortable with for pseudo-medieval setting with magic. Beyond that it becomes a super-hero game and it's no longer palatable to me. I loose interest... and start a new campaign.

Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:12 pm
by shesheyan
agathokles wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:20 am
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:55 pm
Creatures like dragons scale in lethality according to life span. Just view extreme height as a very ancien dragon compare to a youngling for low height. If you want to go against a dragon that is vastly more powerful than you, YOU WILL die. :twisted:
Still, there exist a character level at which even an ancient dragon is a reasonable challenge for the PC(s). There's no "infinitely old dragon" that is therefore unbeatable at any level. In several D&D iterations, even gods and demon lords are not automatically unbeatable. Instead, here you are talking of a threat that is basically unbeatable regardless of character level -- and, instead of using legendary threats for this purpose, you are using a mundane threat which is rather unjustified. As mentioned before, there are cases of survival from extreme height falls, even without significant damage, so there's no reason why a suitably high level character should not be able to survive -- the difference between high and low level characters is exactly that: what is extremely unlikely for a low level character becomes routine when the very high levels are reached. Dragons and falls are no different in this respect.

GP
I disagree on many points you raise. I could counter but I won't. We will never convince each other. Let's agree to disagree. ;)