For The Horde!

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For The Horde!

Postby Marduk_Bathory » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:03 pm

Hi guys. I actually joined The Piazza because I spotted there was a Warcraft forum. I don't have the book but I used to have access. I was going to buy it but I always put it off because I figured, with the success of the MMO it wasn't likely to go out of print any time soon. (I still don't get why it did at all).

This might sound odd to some people but I actually think that WoW is the most D&D inspired computer game I ever played, even when compared to games that actually have "Dungeons & Dragons" in the title. (I guess some people think I'm talking about the lore of the official D&D canon worlds, like dragonlance or forgotten realms, while I'm talking about more mechanical aspects).

I have toyed with the idea of converting the dungeons from vanilla WoW (certainly NONE of the ones from TBC or later, they took one of the most hated aspects of table top RPGs, rail-roading, and put it into every dungeon on a computer game that had previously managed to actually avoid it. WTF??)

I'm looking forward to reading through this and I would love to see what anybody thinks of some of the ideas I've been toying with for my table, if anybody is interested.
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Re: For The Horde!

Postby Bonetti » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:07 am

I'm of the opinion that any of the instances could be converted to a dungeon (and, arguably, that's where it slots, logically).

Most of the instances could be adapted, storywise, and/or expanded to suit a GM's requirements. The raids, in particular, often kept the concept of wings even in later expansions, and sometimes there were multiple instances which could potentially be merged into a single dungeon for tabletop purposes (and to feel less railroaded). Obvious candidates: Icecrown Citadel (Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron, Halls of Reflection, the raid instance), Coilfang Reservoir (Slave Pens, Underbog, Steamvault, Serpentshring Cavern). Some of those even link well with nearby storylines and could be used as an adventure path or a campaign-length adventure (the full story of the naga in Zangarmarsh as an example, ending in a strike on SSC).

It's also been discussed in a couple places: WoW "instances" as an RPG mechanic, and WoW Dungeon Companion - Any good for RPG?. Those threads might be a good starting point.

A long time ago, I also wrote up some 4E-style Adventure Path posts, which mixed zone quests, lore, and instances/raids to provide a 1-30 campaign skeleton. Those might provide some useful ways of interpreting lore to net a campaign theme. (That being said, Blizzard's been getting better with expansion stories, so less mashing up is required with newer content.)
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Re: For The Horde!

Postby Big Mac » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:31 pm

Marduk_Bathory wrote:Hi guys. I actually joined The Piazza because I spotted there was a Warcraft forum.


Hi Marduk! Welcome to The Piazza! You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "hi" to the entire community and tell them about yourself (and what you like).

There wasn't actually a World of Warcraft forum when I joined The Piazza, but The Piazza has a special place called the Other Worlds forum, where if enough fans of a campaign setting come together they can put in a request to get their own bespoke forum. So there might be people discussing other campaign settings you like in there. I'm one of the people that spent a couple of years building up Warcraft discussions in the Other Worlds forum, so it's great that the increased visibility that the subcommunity now has encouraged you to come over here. I hope you enjoy your time here. :)

Marduk_Bathory wrote:I don't have the book but I used to have access. I was going to buy it but I always put it off because I figured, with the success of the MMO it wasn't likely to go out of print any time soon. (I still don't get why it did at all).


You can still get the Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game and the World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game books on the second-hand market. The Piazza has a sister website, called The Book-House on The Piazza, and you can use The Book-House to help you find deals on all the Warcraft/World of Warcraft roleplaying books. I still don't have all the books (some of them are stupidly expensive) but I check every so often and when the price falls low enough, I jump in and buy a copy.

The reason why the Warcraft/World of Warcraft books went out of print, was that the company that printed them, did so under a licence from Blizzard. That licence costs money to buy and money to renew and Blizzard also gets the option to look for another RPG company to give the licence to. If you look at Star Wars roleplaying, the licence has passed to three companies over the years and each one (West End Games, Wizards of the Coast and Fantasy Flight Games) has come up with radically different mechanics.

Getting back to the Warcraft licence, Blizzard first gave a licence to Wizards of the Coast. WotC actually paid a designer to create a book called Warcraft III Players Guide and the book actually got finished and was even scheduled to be published (it even has a listing on Amazon). But just before the book got sent to the printers, WotC changed their mind and decided to cancel the book.

After WotC cancelled their book, Sword and Sorcery Studio (which was owned by White Wolf) got the Warcraft licence. The same company also had a licence (from WotC) to publish Ravenloft books for 3rd Edition. I'm not sure if WotC sold S&SS the Warcraft licence, along with the Ravenloft licence, or if they sold/gave the licence back to Blizzard, with Blizzard selling the licence onto S&SS. But I do know that they original line of Warcraft books were branded as "official Dungeons & Dragons books", so there must have been some sort of deal with WotC, at that stage.

After a while, Sword & Sorcery Studios stopped making Warcraft books with the "official D&D logo" and switched to making World of Warcraft books that did not have the "official D&D logo", so the deal they had with WotC must have ended at that point. Perhaps the deal they had with Blizzard was renewed, with a requirement for them to use the MMO brand name (instead of just Warcraft).

I did once meet a fan who claimed to have been doing work on an official 4th Edition D&D compatible version of World of Warcraft. He said he had been working under a NDA, and that the company had failed to publish anything and that their licence had expired. But when we spoke to him, he said that Blizzard had asked him to not talk about his work. I don't know if that means that their might be a 5th Edition version of World of Warcraft in the works, or if there might be something else in the works, or if he was just someone making up stuff that we could not verify. (Sadly some people do make stuff up on the Internet.) But I would have loved it if the guy had stuck around and told us more. (Or if he had come back under another name and simply spoken to us about WoW without mentioning his unpublished work.)

Marduk_Bathory wrote:This might sound odd to some people but I actually think that WoW is the most D&D inspired computer game I ever played, even when compared to games that actually have "Dungeons & Dragons" in the title. (I guess some people think I'm talking about the lore of the official D&D canon worlds, like dragonlance or forgotten realms, while I'm talking about more mechanical aspects).


It's not odd at all. A lot of the computer gaming market has evolved directly or indirectly from D&D. In the early days, when there was no such thing as a computer game industry, and companies were getting established, a lot of them hired ex-TSR staff, specifically because they knew how to design adventure and games.

D&D is definitely a majore inspiration for World of Warcraft and they have gone beyond the combat of some other fantasy MMOs and tried to introduce a lot of detail into the "campaign setting". It's still not quite the same thing as D&D, but it's a lot of fun.

Marduk_Bathory wrote:I have toyed with the idea of converting the dungeons from vanilla WoW (certainly NONE of the ones from TBC or later, they took one of the most hated aspects of table top RPGs, rail-roading, and put it into every dungeon on a computer game that had previously managed to actually avoid it. WTF??)


Some of my favourite discussions here, are about raiding ideas from the World of Warcraft MMO and using them for tabletop gaming.

I've even posted a topic, called [adventure] Twilight's Fall about raiding the maps of the Blackfathom Deeps and using them with the Twilights Fall adventure hook, from Lands of Mystery.

Unlike you, I don't see a reason to avoid raiding content from The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, Warlords of Draenor or anything else that the MMO comes up with, for two reasons:
  • Tabletop GMs do not have to use all the ideas from the MMO, so discussing anything here allows a GM to pick the things they like from old and new MMO content (without having to use everything else) and
  • Even if tabletop GMs use an entire dungeon that they personally think is suboptimal, they can still tweak the plot to stop it feeling like a "railroad".

So I would encourage you to not worry so much about what era of the MMO is best and focus on the stuff that you think was good about any era. (Having said that, I'll probably be sticking in the era of the tabletop gamebooks, which is slightly different to the one used in the MMO.)

In a tabletop game the PCs also have options that they do not have in the MMO. They could wait around outside a dungon and capture or kill people that come out if it. They could try to barricade the entrance or take part of the dungeon and build a barricade in a defensible position.

So, I think that if you raid the map, raid the faction that is in the dungeon, raid the named NPCs in the dungeon and convert them into D&D NPCs and use the generic NPCs in a proportion that matches the location and the group of players that are up against them, you don't necessarily need to have the exact same number of opponents within a dungeon (or the exact same plot).

Marduk_Bathory wrote:I'm looking forward to reading through this and I would love to see what anybody thinks of some of the ideas I've been toying with for my table, if anybody is interested.


I am very interested. What is your favourite dungeon?
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Re: For The Horde!

Postby Marduk_Bathory » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:25 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Marduk_Bathory wrote:Hi guys. I actually joined The Piazza because I spotted there was a Warcraft forum.


Hi Marduk! Welcome to The Piazza! You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "hi" to the entire community and tell them about yourself (and what you like).
Thanks, I'll do that now :) Sorry for not replying to this sooner, I only just noticed the replies.

There wasn't actually a World of Warcraft forum when I joined The Piazza, but The Piazza has a special place called the Other Worlds forum, where if enough fans of a campaign setting come together they can put in a request to get their own bespoke forum. So there might be people discussing other campaign settings you like in there. I'm one of the people that spent a couple of years building up Warcraft discussions in the Other Worlds forum, so it's great that the increased visibility that the subcommunity now has encouraged you to come over here. I hope you enjoy your time here. :)
Lucky for me :D

You can still get the Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game and the World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game books on the second-hand market. The Piazza has a sister website, called The Book-House on The Piazza, and you can use The Book-House to help you find deals on all the Warcraft/World of Warcraft roleplaying books. I still don't have all the books (some of them are stupidly expensive) but I check every so often and when the price falls low enough, I jump in and buy a copy.
I plan to when I'm a little more affluent but the more I think about how to incorporate aspects of WoW into my game, the less I feel I need the books. I'd only be interested in the races and those produced by WotC are better than those in the book, in many ways. I prefer the Minotaur from the Arcana Unearthed version, I have reservations of using a Revenant over a forsaken (TBH I can't quite remember how the books forsaken went, other than something about no stamina (constitution). It didn't seem like the best idea at the time).

Getting back to the Warcraft licence, Blizzard first gave a licence to Wizards of the Coast. WotC actually paid a designer to create a book called Warcraft III Players Guide and the book actually got finished and was even scheduled to be published (it even has a listing on Amazon). But just before the book got sent to the printers, WotC changed their mind and decided to cancel the book.

After WotC cancelled their book, Sword and Sorcery Studio (which was owned by White Wolf) got the Warcraft licence. The same company also had a licence (from WotC) to publish Ravenloft books for 3rd Edition. I'm not sure if WotC sold S&SS the Warcraft licence, along with the Ravenloft licence, or if they sold/gave the licence back to Blizzard, with Blizzard selling the licence onto S&SS. But I do know that they original line of Warcraft books were branded as "official Dungeons & Dragons books", so there must have been some sort of deal with WotC, at that stage.

After a while, Sword & Sorcery Studios stopped making Warcraft books with the "official D&D logo" and switched to making World of Warcraft books that did not have the "official D&D logo", so the deal they had with WotC must have ended at that point. Perhaps the deal they had with Blizzard was renewed, with a requirement for them to use the MMO brand name (instead of just Warcraft).
. I knew the second edition WoW handbook was released shortly before D&D 4e was released. Perhaps a lot of the content was under the d20 system and they didn't want to release a new book under an old system to detract from a new flagship ?

I did once meet a fan who claimed to have been doing work on an official 4th Edition D&D compatible version of World of Warcraft.
Well there goes my theory. Maybe it's time somebody can ask these things at blizzcon, pointing out that, with the massive resurgence in D&D's popularity, now is the perfect time for a new book!

Marduk_Bathory wrote:This might sound odd to some people but I actually think that WoW is the most D&D inspired computer game I ever played, even when compared to games that actually have "Dungeons & Dragons" in the title. (I guess some people think I'm talking about the lore of the official D&D canon worlds, like dragonlance or forgotten realms, while I'm talking about more mechanical aspects).


It's not odd at all. A lot of the computer gaming market has evolved directly or indirectly from D&D. In the early days, when there was no such thing as a computer game industry, and companies were getting established, a lot of them hired ex-TSR staff, specifically because they knew how to design adventure and games.
Well I knew that :P I just meant that, of all the other computer RPGs, WoW (to me) is the most D&D reminiscent.

Some of my favourite discussions here, are about raiding ideas from the World of Warcraft MMO and using them for tabletop gaming.

I've even posted a topic, called [adventure] Twilight's Fall about raiding the maps of the Blackfathom Deeps and using them with the Twilights Fall adventure hook, from Lands of Mystery.
I am sorry for not really checking the other threads before posting, it was late at night when I joined this group and I've been busy since. I do plan to give it a thurogh investigation within the next few days, though.

Unlike you, I don't see a reason to avoid raiding content from The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, Warlords of Draenor or anything else that the MMO comes up with, for two reasons:
  • Tabletop GMs do not have to use all the ideas from the MMO, so discussing anything here allows a GM to pick the things they like from old and new MMO content (without having to use everything else) and
  • Even if tabletop GMs use an entire dungeon that they personally think is suboptimal, they can still tweak the plot to stop it feeling like a "railroad".
Truth be told I haven't played any WoW dungeons after cataclysm. At some point before MoP the game stopped being fun for me, which I was actually looking forward to. But my time playing WoW was still some of the most fun I've ever had, which is part of the reason I want to incorporate portions of it into my game. Certainly some of the encounters, if not the dungeon maps, would be well worth adapting.

You may have seen my other post for a 5e goblin race build. As you can see, I'm not *completely* against incorporating elements of post-vanilla.

So I would encourage you to not worry so much about what era of the MMO is best and focus on the stuff that you think was good about any era. (Having said that, I'll probably be sticking in the era of the tabletop gamebooks, which is slightly different to the one used in the MMO.)
What bothered me most was the lay out of the maps. Nobody likes to be rail-roaded and I, in particular, *HATED* being forced to do a dungeon in a specific order. Excluding raids, the one TBH dungeon I can think of, off the top of my head, that could be adapted is the Magistar's Terrace. There were a few intersections where a walk way crossed another walk way and an invisible barrier prevented you from jumping over it and skipping a portion of the dungeon. (The mechanic *was* sensible, in this instance (no pun intended), but frustrating, considering that it was a chance to break from all the other dungeons that had the same problem prior to that. I *liked* the idea of being able to deal with a specific area, like LBRS, without having to do the whole thing.

In a tabletop game the PCs also have options that they do not have in the MMO. They could wait around outside a dungon and capture or kill people that come out if it. They could try to barricade the entrance or take part of the dungeon and build a barricade in a defensible position.
very true. But some of those depend on the dungeon only having a single point of egress. I usually try to avoid this.

So, I think that if you raid the map, raid the faction that is in the dungeon, raid the named NPCs in the dungeon and convert them into D&D NPCs and use the generic NPCs
I prefer to think of myself as mining warcraft rather than raiding it :P

Marduk_Bathory wrote:I'm looking forward to reading through this and I would love to see what anybody thinks of some of the ideas I've been toying with for my table, if anybody is interested.


I am very interested. What is your favourite dungeon?
The only idea I've actually 'put to paper' (or PDF, in this case) is my goblin, which I've been letting mellow in the back of my mind for years. It's hard to narrow it down. I liked most of the end game vanilla. Much as I got sick of them and their repetitive colour schemes, BRS (L & U) and BRM were (at least imho) the best designed dungeons they had. I was also particularly fond of Scholomance and Stratholme. While, through completely personal reasons, Zul'Farak might have been my least favourite reason, All of the Zuls (ZF, ZG, ZA) would likely make great adaptions. I'm also interested in the idea of doing the Sunken Temple. (I know it was very frustrating in the vanilla days but I think it would actually be a lot of fun in Table Top mode. (Possibly fewer trash-mobs, though).

I actually went ahead and signed up on a private server, just so that I could explore these old dungeons and get better acquainted with them, and remember how the old boss encounters went.

I would quite like to experiment with taking some of the maps straight from the game and testing them on my players but I think my long term goal is to have dungeons inspired by, rather than ripped off from WoW.
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Re: For The Horde!

Postby Big Mac » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:56 am

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Marduk_Bathory wrote:Hi guys. I actually joined The Piazza because I spotted there was a Warcraft forum.


Hi Marduk! Welcome to The Piazza! You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "hi" to the entire community and tell them about yourself (and what you like).
Thanks, I'll do that now :) Sorry for not replying to this sooner, I only just noticed the replies.


Oops! My turn to say sorry I missed this. I have been fairly busy and need to catch up with a few of the forums at The Piazza. :oops:

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:There wasn't actually a World of Warcraft forum when I joined The Piazza, but The Piazza has a special place called the Other Worlds forum, where if enough fans of a campaign setting come together they can put in a request to get their own bespoke forum. So there might be people discussing other campaign settings you like in there. I'm one of the people that spent a couple of years building up Warcraft discussions in the Other Worlds forum, so it's great that the increased visibility that the subcommunity now has encouraged you to come over here. I hope you enjoy your time here. :)
Lucky for me :D


Very lucky. ;)

If you stick around long enough, maybe you can help build another community for a different campaign setting that does not have a bespoke forum here...yet. :D

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:You can still get the Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game and the World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game books on the second-hand market. The Piazza has a sister website, called The Book-House on The Piazza, and you can use The Book-House to help you find deals on all the Warcraft/World of Warcraft roleplaying books. I still don't have all the books (some of them are stupidly expensive) but I check every so often and when the price falls low enough, I jump in and buy a copy.
I plan to when I'm a little more affluent but the more I think about how to incorporate aspects of WoW into my game, the less I feel I need the books. I'd only be interested in the races and those produced by WotC are better than those in the book, in many ways. I prefer the Minotaur from the Arcana Unearthed version, I have reservations of using a Revenant over a forsaken (TBH I can't quite remember how the books forsaken went, other than something about no stamina (constitution). It didn't seem like the best idea at the time).


I see what you mean. A lot of this sort of thing depends on your own personal point of view (which changes from gamer to gamer and group to group). So there may well be some Warcraft/WoW: RPG books that are a lot more useful...or a lot less useful than other books.

The Book-House has some links you can use to research any books you might be interesed in. If there is a book you might consider buying, you might want to see if thre is a forum topic about it. (And if there is not, you could start one and ask any questions about the book that you want.)

There are a number of books about the World of Warcraft MMO...and the various Warcraft computer games. I've already started topics about "mining" a couple of the others for tabletop ideas. If you see anything that is not covered - and if you are interested in the book - you could start a topic about it.

(However, I speak from experience. The "Is this book any good for tabletop gaming" game is risky. Sometimes it leads to handing over cash, because you just have to know. ;-) )

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Getting back to the Warcraft licence, Blizzard first gave a licence to Wizards of the Coast. WotC actually paid a designer to create a book called Warcraft III Players Guide and the book actually got finished and was even scheduled to be published (it even has a listing on Amazon). But just before the book got sent to the printers, WotC changed their mind and decided to cancel the book.

After WotC cancelled their book, Sword and Sorcery Studio (which was owned by White Wolf) got the Warcraft licence. The same company also had a licence (from WotC) to publish Ravenloft books for 3rd Edition. I'm not sure if WotC sold S&SS the Warcraft licence, along with the Ravenloft licence, or if they sold/gave the licence back to Blizzard, with Blizzard selling the licence onto S&SS. But I do know that they original line of Warcraft books were branded as "official Dungeons & Dragons books", so there must have been some sort of deal with WotC, at that stage.

After a while, Sword & Sorcery Studios stopped making Warcraft books with the "official D&D logo" and switched to making World of Warcraft books that did not have the "official D&D logo", so the deal they had with WotC must have ended at that point. Perhaps the deal they had with Blizzard was renewed, with a requirement for them to use the MMO brand name (instead of just Warcraft).
. I knew the second edition WoW handbook was released shortly before D&D 4e was released. Perhaps a lot of the content was under the d20 system and they didn't want to release a new book under an old system to detract from a new flagship ?


World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game was the "second edition" - Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game was the "first edition". The first edition was official D&D and the second edition was d20 System. But both editions are based on the 3.5 SRD.

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I did once meet a fan who claimed to have been doing work on an official 4th Edition D&D compatible version of World of Warcraft.
Well there goes my theory. Maybe it's time somebody can ask these things at blizzcon, pointing out that, with the massive resurgence in D&D's popularity, now is the perfect time for a new book!


I would love to see Warcraft come back. But I wonder which company could convince Blizzard to give them a licence to make a new tabletop game.

I also wonder if Blizzard really want to see World of Warcraft adapted to D&D or some sort of other rules system...

...when they actually have a WoW rules system built into their MMO.

The WoW: MMO has different levelling up to D&D. There are more levels with more abilities over time. Crunching that down into D&D is possible (Sword and Sorcery Studio proved that) but then they have to drop certian things to get the classes to fit with D&D. Plus you get the thing of classes existing in the tabletop game that are not in the MMO (and vice versa).

Blizzard could actually get someone to reverse-engineer all the things found in the MMO and build a system that gives a fairly similar user experince. And then NPCs or monsters could simply be lifted directly from the MMO and dropped into the tabletop game, with little to no conversion.

It isn't the way I would like to play (as I'm after more 3rd Edition D&D compatibility) but I'd be interested to see what someone could do with a MMO-to-tabletop clone of World of Warcraft, from an intellectual point of view.

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Marduk_Bathory wrote:This might sound odd to some people but I actually think that WoW is the most D&D inspired computer game I ever played, even when compared to games that actually have "Dungeons & Dragons" in the title. (I guess some people think I'm talking about the lore of the official D&D canon worlds, like dragonlance or forgotten realms, while I'm talking about more mechanical aspects).


It's not odd at all. A lot of the computer gaming market has evolved directly or indirectly from D&D. In the early days, when there was no such thing as a computer game industry, and companies were getting established, a lot of them hired ex-TSR staff, specifically because they knew how to design adventure and games.
Well I knew that :P I just meant that, of all the other computer RPGs, WoW (to me) is the most D&D reminiscent.


Right. Gotcha. And the funny thing is that some of the computer RPGs are straight-up adaptations of D&D.

As well as Warcraft/World of Warcraft, I have actually been looking at Dungeons & Dragons Online, as it is set in and around Stormreach (a port-city in Eberron's continent Xen'drik).

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Some of my favourite discussions here, are about raiding ideas from the World of Warcraft MMO and using them for tabletop gaming. I've been looking to find new Eberron content there and recover it for use with Eberron tabletop games.

I've even posted a topic, called [adventure] Twilight's Fall about raiding the maps of the Blackfathom Deeps and using them with the Twilights Fall adventure hook, from Lands of Mystery.
I am sorry for not really checking the other threads before posting, it was late at night when I joined this group and I've been busy since. I do plan to give it a thurogh investigation within the next few days, though.


No need to appologise. We are all learning. We all get things wrong, especially when something is outside our main areas of interest. I'm always learning stuff from other people at The Piazza, or getting corrected on misinformation I've picked up.

If you have a general interest in D&D inspired computer games...and their relationship with D&D, perhaps we might meet in a few other topics across The Piazza. :)

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Unlike you, I don't see a reason to avoid raiding content from The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, Warlords of Draenor or anything else that the MMO comes up with, for two reasons:
  • Tabletop GMs do not have to use all the ideas from the MMO, so discussing anything here allows a GM to pick the things they like from old and new MMO content (without having to use everything else) and
  • Even if tabletop GMs use an entire dungeon that they personally think is suboptimal, they can still tweak the plot to stop it feeling like a "railroad".
Truth be told I haven't played any WoW dungeons after cataclysm. At some point before MoP the game stopped being fun for me, which I was actually looking forward to. But my time playing WoW was still some of the most fun I've ever had, which is part of the reason I want to incorporate portions of it into my game. Certainly some of the encounters, if not the dungeon maps, would be well worth adapting.

You may have seen my other post for a 5e goblin race build. As you can see, I'm not *completely* against incorporating elements of post-vanilla.


I look at the development of the MMO as inspiration for the development of a tabletop timeline. I think I even started a topic about using MMO patches as inspiration for a series of adventures (as patches tend to roll in new quest chains).

I want to know as much as possible about the MMO, but I think it would be valid to set a game in any of the big release eras. I even think it could be fun for someone to start with the very first setup of the WoW: MMO and move the players through the MMO timeline (following the patch quest chains as new plotlines) with the PCs being able to either facilitate the changes of the world or work against them. (Essentially, you could allow the PCs to block Burning Crusade or Cataclysm or whatever...or negate a lot of it's changes.)

I think that each one can potentially be converted over to something similar to a Pathfinder Adventure Path.

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:So I would encourage you to not worry so much about what era of the MMO is best and focus on the stuff that you think was good about any era. (Having said that, I'll probably be sticking in the era of the tabletop gamebooks, which is slightly different to the one used in the MMO.)
What bothered me most was the lay out of the maps. Nobody likes to be rail-roaded and I, in particular, *HATED* being forced to do a dungeon in a specific order. Excluding raids, the one TBH dungeon I can think of, off the top of my head, that could be adapted is the Magistar's Terrace. There were a few intersections where a walk way crossed another walk way and an invisible barrier prevented you from jumping over it and skipping a portion of the dungeon. (The mechanic *was* sensible, in this instance (no pun intended), but frustrating, considering that it was a chance to break from all the other dungeons that had the same problem prior to that. I *liked* the idea of being able to deal with a specific area, like LBRS, without having to do the whole thing.


If you want to do that sort of thing, perhaps you could import existing MMO maps into some art software and then reboot them...so that you have different maps in the same style.

That's a bit beyond my area of expertise, but if you start a topic about designing Warcraft maps, you might be able to pull in a few people who share the interest.

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:In a tabletop game the PCs also have options that they do not have in the MMO. They could wait around outside a dungon and capture or kill people that come out if it. They could try to barricade the entrance or take part of the dungeon and build a barricade in a defensible position.
very true. But some of those depend on the dungeon only having a single point of egress. I usually try to avoid this.


If you look at something like Gnomeregon, I think that the PCs could work with a bunch of NPC gnomes to be able to take over specific levels from the leper gnomes. If they could take control of specific defensible areas, they could slowly take more and more territory, with the PCs doing the "interesting stuff" and the NPC gnomes dealing with the mundane logistical stuff.

Marduk_Bathory wrote:
Big Mac wrote:So, I think that if you raid the map, raid the faction that is in the dungeon, raid the named NPCs in the dungeon and convert them into D&D NPCs and use the generic NPCs
I prefer to think of myself as mining warcraft rather than raiding it :P


Mine away! ;)
Image

Marduk_Bathory wrote:I would quite like to experiment with taking some of the maps straight from the game and testing them on my players but I think my long term goal is to have dungeons inspired by, rather than ripped off from WoW.


I've seen people chop up maps and jumble them up in the past. Someone did an amazing reboot of one of Anna Meyer's 3D Greyhawk maps that looked pretty much like she had made it.

I guess you could make "lego" sections out of any of the MMO maps and then fit them together in your own ways.
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