Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Discuss the World of Warcraft campaign setting, as it relates to pen & paper RPGs, here.
The Book-House: Find Warcraft/World of Warcraft products.

Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Big Mac » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:54 pm

Crossposted from the Wilderlands' Blackmoor thread in the Blackmoor forum:

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I was talking to Night Druid about the Warcraft Campaign Setting recently* (specifically talking about milking the MMORPG to create new content for the tabletop RPG). The subject of the scale of Azeroth came up. Night Druid correctly pointed out that the land you travel about on in WoW is just too small for the world to work as documented. We were talking about how to expand it. You could magnify everything at the same scale, or you could keep some of those areas as they are (and add in additional land to fill in the blanks) or you could do both things in different parts of the map.


I apologize for the off-topicness, but there's a really excellent essay on Azeroth's size and shape here.


Wow! This "lecture" really goes into nerd-level scientific research on the WoW game. I love how you can extrapolate information about the size of the planet, its gravity and its density by doing stuff that is not against the rules, but which Blizzard didn't expect anyone to do.

I wonder how many times Rula (their Taurean "Beaker") had to run back from the graveyard, while they were working out the gravity! :lol:

I love the "sticky-dirt" theory, but I'm not sure that is so useful to RPG GMs. I think that a GM would use normal dirt in a tabletop game (after all there are mines).

The "flat Azeroth" theory just shows up flaws in the way the MMORPG planet was designed. I'm not sure that is very applicable to anyone wanting to extrapolate RPG details from the MMORPG. But the link to the Healing Through Fatigue video was very interesting. I wonder how many people have been to "the corner of the world". And there is already a precident for a spherical planet that has a single dawn and a single dusk: Woodhaven, a planet in the crystal sphere called Herospace. Woodhaven is affected by some sort of great magic, so perhaps the same thing might cause Azeroth to have a single dawn without being flat.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 22144
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:08 pm

Did you see part two of the essay? An illustration that once existed there seems to be broken, but apparently he took a character to the literal edge of Azeroth and looked over the side.

But from visual observation, we have to report that Azeroth seems to exist on the end of a very tall pillar; possibly two or even three very tall pillars, one for each continent. In other words, please disregard pretty much everything I wrote in Part 1 because it’s balls.


That part of the essay is also interesting for its discussion of Alderson disks, which is what the illithid world of Penumbra (from the AD&D adventure Dawn of the Overmind) is.
ripvanwormer
Black Dragon
 
Posts: 3101
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Big Mac » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:33 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Did you see part two of the essay? An illustration that once existed there seems to be broken, but apparently he took a character to the literal edge of Azeroth and looked over the side.


I did see part two. The thing you are talking about was linked to from a comment (if you are talking about what I am talking about) but there was already a video linked to from part one that showed you a PC standing on the corner of the world. (What was best was that this seems to only work with a level 1 PC.)

ripvanwormer wrote:
But from visual observation, we have to report that Azeroth seems to exist on the end of a very tall pillar; possibly two or even three very tall pillars, one for each continent. In other words, please disregard pretty much everything I wrote in Part 1 because it’s balls.


That part of the essay is also interesting for its discussion of Alderson disks, which is what the illithid world of Penumbra (from the AD&D adventure Dawn of the Overmind) is.


I would say that these "researchers" (being in-character people*) are blisssfuly unaware that the the Warcraft RPG had the D&D logo on the front and that lable sucked their world into the D&D universe and caused Jeff Grubb's laws of nature to be imposed on the space around their world faster than you could say "Azerothspace". :twisted: :lol:

* = Apart from the occasional person who misses the point and says: "its a game dude". :lol:

BTW: Have you seen n00b World Reorder, part 3?

"this paradoxical theory is known as Schrodinger’s Kitkat" :lol:
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 22144
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby night_druid » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:44 pm

Azeroth isn't even big enough for all of the battlemaps from Warcraft I-III, so obviously the world should be many times greater than presented in WoW. And that doesn't count the implied space between the battlemaps! :lol:

<shrug>I just look at is as "the computing power isn't enough to present Azeroth as a it should be (assume each continent should be at least as big as Europe); we're just getting the really scaled down version".
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green
User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:22 am

night_druid wrote:Azeroth isn't even big enough for all of the battlemaps from Warcraft I-III, so obviously the world should be many times greater than presented in WoW. And that doesn't count the implied space between the battlemaps! :lol:


I didn't know about those battlemaps before. I wonder if WoWWiki has anything useful on them.

night_druid wrote:<shrug>I just look at is as "the computing power isn't enough to present Azeroth as a it should be (assume each continent should be at least as big as Europe); we're just getting the really scaled down version".


Google Earth seems to manage to cope with an Earth-sized world. Admittedly it cheats by putting in less detail of the countryside (and a lot less detail of the sea) but I'm sure WoW could space out country monsters more than town monsters without people noticing too much.

I suppose the main problem is that increasing the level of detail would increase the minimum system requirements (at the client end) and that would mean that an upgrade would knock out some of their customers.

Now if the "locked off" design on World of Warcraft and started up something called World of Warcraft II, they could do the things we have spoken about elsewhere*, but as well as that sort of thing, they could also sort out some of the weirdness of WoW. Instead of having critters stick to small fixed areas, perhaps they could have slightly larger territory, semi-random movement and some sort of algorithm that makes them more likely to turn around as they approach the edge of their "land".

* = Including increasing the size of places like Stormwind, adding in additional towns and villages, inserting extra farms and filling up the extra space with extra monsters and extra NPCs.

Maybe more critters could attack and eat each other. It might be fun if certain characters had the ability to use spells to trick one critter into attacking another one. I also think that it would be good if characters could have several combat pets, attract random nearby animals to help them for a single combat or have one or more NPC followers. I wouldn't want to see this sort of thing at 1st level, but if a player can have 10 characters on the same server, then why not let them double up and drive one, while having anoher on "autopilot".

If Blizzard did go to WoW II, they could offer free transfers (from WoW I) and slowly reduce the number of new WoW I realms, while making more WoW II realms. Eventually, as WoW I realms got to be nearly empty, they could move people onto a reduced number of replacement realms.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 22144
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby dulsi » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:27 am

Big Mac wrote:Google Earth seems to manage to cope with an Earth-sized world. Admittedly it cheats by putting in less detail of the countryside (and a lot less detail of the sea) but I'm sure WoW could space out country monsters more than town monsters without people noticing too much.

I suppose the main problem is that increasing the level of detail would increase the minimum system requirements (at the client end) and that would mean that an upgrade would knock out some of their customers.

I don't think that is the case. They could increase the amount of space but still limit your sight to whatever it currently is. The new areas wouldn't require any more system requirements except disk space. The problem is how long it takes to get to something interesting. You don't have the luxury of quickly skipping over time like in a tabletop game. Additionally you have navigation issues. You need to add a lot of distinct areas so that people can find their way. (Or at least I assume that would be a good idea. I've never played an MMORPG so I'm think from general computer game design ideas and what I've read.) By doing this you also risk having people more spread out potentially reducing interaction.

Consider that the main area wasn't designed for flying mounts and therefore doesn't allow them. That suggests to me that they did what they needed to design and ship the game. Yes they could increase the size of the world and tweak everything so it doesn't make the world feel more empty but that would take more time and not increase the fun of the game for the majority of people. Given the choice of quests and other content or a larger world, I bet the players would much prefer the quests and other content.
Dennis Payne -- Identical Games
Support Roon's Raccoon Sprintladder on Lego Ideas.
ImageImage
User avatar
dulsi
Storm Giant
 
Posts: 1771
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:19 pm

dulsi wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Google Earth seems to manage to cope with an Earth-sized world. Admittedly it cheats by putting in less detail of the countryside (and a lot less detail of the sea) but I'm sure WoW could space out country monsters more than town monsters without people noticing too much.

I suppose the main problem is that increasing the level of detail would increase the minimum system requirements (at the client end) and that would mean that an upgrade would knock out some of their customers.

I don't think that is the case. They could increase the amount of space but still limit your sight to whatever it currently is. The new areas wouldn't require any more system requirements except disk space. The problem is how long it takes to get to something interesting. You don't have the luxury of quickly skipping over time like in a tabletop game. Additionally you have navigation issues. You need to add a lot of distinct areas so that people can find their way. (Or at least I assume that would be a good idea. I've never played an MMORPG so I'm think from general computer game design ideas and what I've read.) By doing this you also risk having people more spread out potentially reducing interaction.


The thing is that you wouldn't expand one square mile of farmland into one hundred square miles of farmland. You would turn towns into cities, villages into towns, hamletts into villages and add in extra farms and other buildings.

Navigation isn't an issue in WoW, because players are provided with GPS-style tools that show where their PC is located.

WoW gets past the problem with running long distances being boring in two ways:
  1. There are birds you can fly on (to get from one place to another). Additional area would requie additional griffon masters.
  2. There are mounts that you can buy to rapidly move across terrain. Additional terrain would make it longer to ride a mount across the continents, but if that new area is interesting, people might actually want go to places (instead of going past them).

And while having a larger play area might spread players out, but it would also increase the capacity of each server (and allow Blizzard to cram more players into fewer servers).

dulsi wrote:Consider that the main area wasn't designed for flying mounts and therefore doesn't allow them. That suggests to me that they did what they needed to design and ship the game. Yes they could increase the size of the world and tweak everything so it doesn't make the world feel more empty but that would take more time and not increase the fun of the game for the majority of people. Given the choice of quests and other content or a larger world, I bet the players would much prefer the quests and other content.


Actually, after the forthcoming reboot they will allow flying mounts on Azeroth!

Admittedly, they couldn't put them in before. But that was mostly because they left a bunch of gaps in between the playable areas and there are errors seeing the world from up above cities.

The thing is that to give players more quests and content, you need to have new land in order to locate dungeons and NPCs. The previous expansions have added new land around the outskirts. Cataclism is going to add land under the ground.

Personally, I think the "disaster" is there to cover the fact that they it would take a lot of manpower to fix the exisitng map and that making a new map is just as easy.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 22144
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Bonetti » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:05 pm

Big Mac wrote:The thing is that to give players more quests and content, you need to have new land in order to locate dungeons and NPCs. The previous expansions have added new land around the outskirts. Cataclism is going to add land under the ground.

Personally, I think the "disaster" is there to cover the fact that they it would take a lot of manpower to fix the exisitng map and that making a new map is just as easy.

I think the primary motivation is simple: A chance to completely redesign the world with what they now know. If they didn't do something Azeroth-shattering while doing so, they'd need to stick pretty closely to the current content design (upgrade graphics, smooth the out-of-sight areas of zones for flying, etc.).

This gives them a way to "reboot" the original world, and re-work it with everything they've learned since launch. If you've leveled more than a couple characters, you'll see that the zones are very uneven in quality. Someone who wasn't there can probably guess as to which parts were earlier and which were later. The Dun Morogh/Loch Modan/Wetlands and Elwynn Forest/Westfall/Redridge/Duskwood paths are significantly weaker than any of the Horde paths (and the Night Elf path) to the mid-20s -- both in terms of quantity and quality of quests. Each expansion has been a marked improvement as they refined what they could do, and the whole Death Knight intro area is wonderful.

Meanwhile, anyone new to the game is being introduced by some pretty darn weak (outright craptastic, if human) introductory areas and probably sitting there wondering what all the fuss is about.

I saw the talk about the re-design at Blizzcon 2009, and they've taken the lessons to heart. I'm planning on leveling a couple characters on each faction, just to see how they've reworked it. They've learned so much about quest flow, and I've been playing so long (and leveled so many characters) that it'll be useful to see the redesign in action.

OK, I confess, it's all just an excuse to finally have a Troll Druid. I strongly, strongly, strongly dislike the Tauren models...
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image
User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
 
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Big Mac » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:23 pm

Bonetti wrote:This gives them a way to "reboot" the original world, and re-work it with everything they've learned since launch.


I figured that. Essentially it is a hand-wave excuse to make Azeroth work better from a MMORP point-of-view.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 22144
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby night_druid » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:08 pm

Big Mac wrote:I didn't know about those battlemaps before. I wonder if WoWWiki has anything useful on them.


Warcraft was a Real-Time Strategy game before it became an MMO.

That said, I don't expect them to resize the world any time soon. They couldn't allow flying mounts in Azeroth/Kalamdor because certain pieces of the world were not complete (Stormwind Castle would not render correclty, for example). The other issue is that they don't want to make the world too big and make it difficult to get around. I still think the world feels way too small, myself, but when half the quests involve bouncing around the world to collect junk, a bigger world is not desirable.

Personally, what I'd want to see is them do away with quest rewards that are items. Instead, I'd rather just get tokens, which can be used to buy class-related items at Quartermasters. And make it such that you get a full set every ten levels or so, &/or have things that can "grow" with the PC instead of things that get chucked after a few levels. AND make the suits look half-way good; a lot of the recent items I've gotten (Northrend junk) looks either silly or just plain crappy.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green
User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Big Mac » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:06 pm

night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I didn't know about those battlemaps before. I wonder if WoWWiki has anything useful on them.


Warcraft was a Real-Time Strategy game before it became an MMO.


I knew it was something (and I knew it was originally called Warcraft), but I wasn't sure exactly what. IIRC Blizzard did some sort of time jump thing between different types of Warcraft (games or novels). So it is possible that there are some sort of minor differences between the maps without it being a continuity error or anything like that.

night_druid wrote:That said, I don't expect them to resize the world any time soon. They couldn't allow flying mounts in Azeroth/Kalamdor because certain pieces of the world were not complete (Stormwind Castle would not render correclty, for example). The other issue is that they don't want to make the world too big and make it difficult to get around. I still think the world feels way too small, myself, but when half the quests involve bouncing around the world to collect junk, a bigger world is not desirable.


I don't think they will resize the world at all. That would involve a major reboot of how the software works.

My second link (above) was to a video that shows one of the capital cities failing to appear as a flying mount flew above it.

I think that a bigger world would work OK, if you did not have to bounce all around the world to level up. If they had quest paths that could get you to level sixty without leaving the same continent, people would just explore outside their area for the fun of it. I think the thing that causes the problem is that people feel forced to run backwards and fowards across the world.

I even think that it would be good to have more quests that you could do (maybe up to level 50) within a single "country".

If WoW stacked quests on a country by country basis, then people who wanted to dedicate themselves to a specific territory might be able to level up in a different way. Maybe they could have something similar to the guild system and copy prestige classes (like FRCS Red Wizard of Thay) and make people a certain number of XP locally to qualify.

For example, maybe a druid that hangs around the sea and rivers could eventually gain the ability to transform into a giant Murlock! :twisted:

night_druid wrote:Personally, what I'd want to see is them do away with quest rewards that are items. Instead, I'd rather just get tokens, which can be used to buy class-related items at Quartermasters. And make it such that you get a full set every ten levels or so, &/or have things that can "grow" with the PC instead of things that get chucked after a few levels. AND make the suits look half-way good; a lot of the recent items I've gotten (Northrend junk) looks either silly or just plain crappy.


I don't especially mind quests that lead to a reward of an item, but I would like to see the roleplaying aspect make more sense. And I would like these quest items to be things that are not sold. For example, a priest could go to look for a holy artifact, be allowed to keep it...for a while...and could later go on a quest where the holy artifact was either upgraded (as you suggested) or passed over to an NPC who hands back a better item.

If they actually added some D&D-like religions to the game, they could make a variety of priest quests that form one chain for every religion.

I really do like the idea of items that get upgraded. You could, for example, go on quests for a weaponsmith and in return have the weaponsmith replace an existing brestplate with a stronger one. If you did things like that (where you traded in old stuff) you wouldn't get people with two million items in the bank (or banker NPCs, who just put things into the postal system).

I blame Games Workshop for the ugly items. They look just like the Warhammer style.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 22144
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby night_druid » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:06 pm

Big Mac wrote:I knew it was something (and I knew it was originally called Warcraft), but I wasn't sure exactly what. IIRC Blizzard did some sort of time jump thing between different types of Warcraft (games or novels). So it is possible that there are some sort of minor differences between the maps without it being a continuity error or anything like that.


Several, actually. Warcraft I involved orcs overrunning the kingdom of Azeroth; Warcraft II was set a few years later with the orcs invading Loderon. Warcraft III was set about a generation after II, with the orcs having been beaten and kept in internment camps. WoW is set about 5 years after III, and spans a good 2 or 3 years of gametime, I think.


I don't think they will resize the world at all. That would involve a major reboot of how the software works.


No doubt; I don't expect it to happen. Just something I'd *like* to see happen.


I think that a bigger world would work OK, if you did not have to bounce all around the world to level up. If they had quest paths that could get you to level sixty without leaving the same continent, people would just explore outside their area for the fun of it. I think the thing that causes the problem is that people feel forced to run backwards and fowards across the world.


There's a lot of things I'd like to see happen, but they're more suited towards my personal tastes. The "bounce around the world" type quests really server two purposes: 1. get people to go to the next leveled zone and 2. busy work for max-level characters. Most of the level 60 content is pure busy work that became a pointless waste of time after Burning Crusade was released.

Some things I personally would like to see happen:
1. Bigger world - already talked to death ;)

2. Racial Factions - You don't just pick "human". You pick your nationality, too (same for all of the races), drawing from all the named tribes, nations, and factions mentioned in Warcraft III. This would result in customized quests & NPC reactions based on your origin tribe. So you might be a human paladin from Stormgarde, and your personalized quests might be geared towards rebuilding that city, perhaps even to the point that you eventually get an "instanced" version of the city that's been rebuilt. (for example).

3. Redo fetch/bounty quests such that you can kill say kobolds, collect ears, and just turn them in constantly for X copper. "Go kill X number of Y" quests seem kinda silly to me, usually used just to create the illusion of quest chains.

Especially annoying: you're in an area thick with critters you kill on step 1 of the quest, with a boss monster wandering around such that its impossible NOT to kill that boss. Turn in quest 1, get quest 2 which is to kill said boss. Um, I just did that. Five frick'n times. Worse are quests that have you go back and forth over & over again killing progressively (but only slightly so) more powerful critters until you get to the boss, and the critters all intermingle. And you have to take each step one at at ime, instead of all at once. Ugh.

4. Give me a sense that I actually accomplish something once I finish these epic quests. Point in case: Missing Diplomat. Its a long quest chain that involves the kidnapping of the King of Stormwind. Awesome. it got left off for years as a hanging questline that was never finished. They finally finished it recently. So I kill the traitor, get the information, go to Jaina. She sends me on a recon flight of Altraz Island (big prison island), which is thick with Elite mobs. I'm sweating the next step...is it an Instance or something that I need to group to finish (ugh)? Maybe there's some way I can be teleported in and finish the quest without a group? Or something else? NO! You get back...and Jaina tells you the King was rescued MONTHS ago, and the ENTIRE QUEST CHAIN is a TOTAL waste of your time. And she tosses some vendor trash your way for your time. In effect, I'm stuck as the guy who is forced to listen to boring stories at a gamestore. Screw you Jaina, I want the five or six hours of my life back I spent on this lame quest chain. Massive letdown.


I really do like the idea of items that get upgraded. You could, for example, go on quests for a weaponsmith and in return have the weaponsmith replace an existing brestplate with a stronger one. If you did things like that (where you traded in old stuff) you wouldn't get people with two million items in the bank (or banker NPCs, who just put things into the postal system).


They have some fairly cool low-level stuff that I really wish could grow with a character, such as a hammer that paladins make when they're level 20 (but is completely useless by level 25 :( ).


I blame Games Workshop for the ugly items. They look just like the Warhammer style.


Well, since Warcraft was meant as a Warhammer game (but Blizzard couldn't get the license), that's probably fairly accurate.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green
User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm

Re: Size of Azeroth (Brave N00b World)

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:42 am

night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I think that a bigger world would work OK, if you did not have to bounce all around the world to level up. If they had quest paths that could get you to level sixty without leaving the same continent, people would just explore outside their area for the fun of it. I think the thing that causes the problem is that people feel forced to run backwards and fowards across the world.


There's a lot of things I'd like to see happen, but they're more suited towards my personal tastes. The "bounce around the world" type quests really server two purposes: 1. get people to go to the next leveled zone and 2. busy work for max-level characters. Most of the level 60 content is pure busy work that became a pointless waste of time after Burning Crusade was released.


Well, these are all things that can get fixed in a tabletop RPG campaign.

night_druid wrote:Some things I personally would like to see happen:
1. Bigger world - already talked to death ;)


Yep. Talked to death, but I'd like to see this worked on for the tabletop RPG.

night_druid wrote:2. Racial Factions - You don't just pick "human". You pick your nationality, too (same for all of the races), drawing from all the named tribes, nations, and factions mentioned in Warcraft III. This would result in customized quests & NPC reactions based on your origin tribe. So you might be a human paladin from Stormgarde, and your personalized quests might be geared towards rebuilding that city, perhaps even to the point that you eventually get an "instanced" version of the city that's been rebuilt. (for example).


I do like the idea of racial factions. It could definitely be done with the RPG.

I think that customised quests could also work in the MMORPG. They already customise for other things (like class and race) so the mechanism is in there.

An instanced city is an interesting concept. Obviously the big thing would be a free Gnomregan. But if rumors are to be believed, that is going to happen.

night_druid wrote:3. Redo fetch/bounty quests such that you can kill say kobolds, collect ears, and just turn them in constantly for X copper. "Go kill X number of Y" quests seem kinda silly to me, usually used just to create the illusion of quest chains.

Especially annoying: you're in an area thick with critters you kill on step 1 of the quest, with a boss monster wandering around such that its impossible NOT to kill that boss. Turn in quest 1, get quest 2 which is to kill said boss. Um, I just did that. Five frick'n times. Worse are quests that have you go back and forth over & over again killing progressively (but only slightly so) more powerful critters until you get to the boss, and the critters all intermingle. And you have to take each step one at at ime, instead of all at once. Ugh.


Hmm. Sounds like they are trying to break that sort of thing down, so that it seems to be in managable chunks. You are right: they are trying and failing. I think that bounty quests should be changed into quests that ask for you to bring sets of X critters (up to a maximum of Y critters). Maybe if you get told to kill critters with fur, you could be given a quest from a fur dealer who needs X pelts to make each coat. Otherwise, as you say, an ongoing bounty on all the creatures in the area would make sense. If you keep grinding away, you would eventually get to the point when staying there was uneconomical (because you could earn more elsewhere) so I don't think your idea would be open to abuse.

I think that big bounties, that are posted on people, should be automatic, instead of something that you pick up. If you kill the local boss, you should get a head that comes with a "take this head into town" variant of the bounty quest that puts you back on track.

Another way to stop this seeming so repetative (if people need to keep going back to the same area) would be to have a chain of bosses that rotate through some sort of sequence. That way, if you kill boss A, you can be told that boss B has turned up and moved into the power vacuum.

night_druid wrote:4. Give me a sense that I actually accomplish something once I finish these epic quests. Point in case: Missing Diplomat. Its a long quest chain that involves the kidnapping of the King of Stormwind. Awesome. it got left off for years as a hanging questline that was never finished. They finally finished it recently. So I kill the traitor, get the information, go to Jaina. She sends me on a recon flight of Altraz Island (big prison island), which is thick with Elite mobs. I'm sweating the next step...is it an Instance or something that I need to group to finish (ugh)? Maybe there's some way I can be teleported in and finish the quest without a group? Or something else? NO! You get back...and Jaina tells you the King was rescued MONTHS ago, and the ENTIRE QUEST CHAIN is a TOTAL waste of your time. And she tosses some vendor trash your way for your time. In effect, I'm stuck as the guy who is forced to listen to boring stories at a gamestore. Screw you Jaina, I want the five or six hours of my life back I spent on this lame quest chain. Massive letdown.


Hmm. That does sound a bit naff. If they can't (for some reason I don't understand) allow you to rescue an NPC, they could at least make some sort of set piece, where you create a diversion, and a bunch of NPCs who are "working with you" use your diversion to do the rescue.

To be honest, I think that WoW has a level of diminishing returns, and that Blizzard don't really know what to do as PCs get closer and closer to that limit.

If PCs actually died, they may well not have this problem, as it would be so hard to get to the end of WoW, but essentially, what you have is a game where you always progress, no mater how slowly.

night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I really do like the idea of items that get upgraded. You could, for example, go on quests for a weaponsmith and in return have the weaponsmith replace an existing brestplate with a stronger one. If you did things like that (where you traded in old stuff) you wouldn't get people with two million items in the bank (or banker NPCs, who just put things into the postal system).


They have some fairly cool low-level stuff that I really wish could grow with a character, such as a hammer that paladins make when they're level 20 (but is completely useless by level 25 :( ).


Well, they have gemstones now. You should be able to go to an NPC with gemstone skills and have something like a hammer with 5 sockets and add five gems before handing it in.

It wouldn't work for all PC classes, but if you are a paladin, they should really get you to pass on your "holy item" to an NPC paladin to fulfil a quest. That sort of thing would work better from an in-character organisation basis. You would get stuff...and you would give stuff away. You would still sell other stuff, but the special stuff (that you can't sell) would turn into stuff you pass on.

With NPCs handing out quests, I would really like to see a way that PCs can hand out quests too. The thing would be vulnerable to abuse, so perhaps guilds would be a way to minimise this. If you had guild quests, then the higher members of a guild, could be given a quest which involves passing on other quests to people below them. A high level guild leader could do quests where they earn seemingly trivial items, but those items could be ones that all switch on some sort of new "mentor quest". If every mentor quest item handed out increased a guild leader's status, there would be people queuing up to help other people.

In fact, "mentor quests" could be something that was available to everyone over a certain level and could be set at helping people 5, 10, 15 or whatever levels below your PCs current level. When someone gets too good, they would be too high for you to teach them and you would need to seek out new PCs to mentor.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Newsflash!: The Piazza is moving!
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 22144
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK


Return to World of Warcraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests