Azeroth once had two moons...

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Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:15 pm

...but no longer does.

In lore Azeroth has two moons (and this is supported in the Halls of Lightning where there's a globe of Azeroth with both moons in orbit). At launch, WoW showed both moons in the sky. The larger moon is the White Lady, the smaller moon is the Blue Child.

However, with the launch of the Burning Crusade expansion, only the White Lady was still visible in Azeroth. Furthermore, the moon visible in the sky over one of the Outland raid instances in BC (I'm blanking on which one, and didn't raid past Karazhan so have no personal experience with it) was reported to resemble Azeroth. This led to some interesting speculation, to wit:

We know that Draenor was once a lush planet, and we know that it was destroyed twenty or so years before WoW (when the portal was closed or shortly before). We know that the Blue Child disappeared.

What if the Blue Child was Draenor, and thus the Pale Lady in Draenor's sky is Azeroth? What if they were sister/twin worlds, and the destruction of the one (to save the other) resulted in the apparent loss of a moon?

That could lead to some interesting fallout.

(It also makes the Draenei flight in the Exodar much, much shorter. This might make sense, too, given that they crashed the ship they reached Draenor with. Given the generations separating them, it's quite possible that the new ships constructed in what becomes Tempest Keep and from which the Exodar was stolen aren't nearly as good/powerful as the original one they fled in, and thus it couldn't make much of a flight. That would limit the utility of the rest of the TK ships in a campaign, if the GM needs an excuse to do so.)
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:12 pm

I noticed that before, when I was hunting for information that could help make a Spelljammer tie-in for Warcraft RPG. Frustratingly, I think that the two WoWWiki pages for the moons redirect onto a single page. However, IIRC WoWWiki has a link to a YouTube video that shows the two moons in the sky.

I kind of like the two moons thing, as it says "this is not Earth" pretty well, although I does seem to be overused sometimes. Star Wars did the same trick a different way (giving Tattoine two suns).

I do wonder how much thought Blizzard put into the two moons, apart from this being a way of making Azeroth look different.

I personally would have preferred it if areas, like Outland, were all part of a single planetary system. That way, when Blizzard needed to expand the game area, they could just have brought in an entire planetary system (via portals and maybe via some of those spaceships that they have).
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Azaghal » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:30 pm

Big Mac wrote:I noticed that before, when I was hunting for information that could help make a Spelljammer tie-in for Warcraft RPG. Frustratingly, I think that the two WoWWiki pages for the moons redirect onto a single page. However, IIRC WoWWiki has a link to a YouTube video that shows the two moons in the sky.

I kind of like the two moons thing, as it says "this is not Earth" pretty well, although I does seem to be overused sometimes. Star Wars did the same trick a different way (giving Tattoine two suns).

I do wonder how much thought Blizzard put into the two moons, apart from this being a way of making Azeroth look different.

I personally would have preferred it if areas, like Outland, were all part of a single planetary system. That way, when Blizzard needed to expand the game area, they could just have brought in an entire planetary system (via portals and maybe via some of those spaceships that they have).
The questionvBig Mac isv what can we take for SJ? 2 moons is always good, but we need to be aware of tidal mechanics.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:55 pm

Azaghal wrote:The questionvBig Mac isv what can we take for SJ? 2 moons is always good, but we need to be aware of tidal mechanics.
A guy did a long series of articles about the scientific discoveries that could be demonstrated via experiements and I'm pretty sure he said that World of Warcraft was ignoring tidal mechanics.

Personally, I think that two moons would have an additive and subtractive effect, just like one moon and one sun does. When two moons and the sun line up you would get the higest tides.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Azaghal » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:16 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Azaghal wrote:The questionvBig Mac isv what can we take for SJ? 2 moons is always good, but we need to be aware of tidal mechanics.
A guy did a long series of articles about the scientific discoveries that could be demonstrated via experiements and I'm pretty sure he said that World of Warcraft was ignoring tidal mechanics.

Personally, I think that two moons would have an additive and subtractive effect, just like one moon and one sun does. When two moons and the sun line up you would get the higest tides.
Basically based on astronomical physics that`s how it should work, but we could do all sorts of differnet things with it.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by night_druid » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:27 pm

Azaghal wrote:The questionvBig Mac isv what can we take for SJ? 2 moons is always good, but we need to be aware of tidal mechanics.
WHAT tidal effects? There's no tides in Azeroth!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Azaghal » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:57 pm

night_druid wrote:
Azaghal wrote:The questionvBig Mac isv what can we take for SJ? 2 moons is always good, but we need to be aware of tidal mechanics.
WHAT tidal effects? There's no tides in Azeroth!! :mrgreen:
:oops: So Big Mac pointed out, never played WoW only Warcraft I & II.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:31 pm

Well, see...

The Maelstrom is so powerful it has completely disrupted any tides world-wide. Yeah, that's the ticket.

In WoW, there are no tides represented in the game (heck, there was no weather until 16 months after the original launch). One can either treat that as being abstracted away, or work with it and find a reason. I have no idea off-hand if it's ever been addressed (RPG or MMO).
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:22 pm

night_druid wrote:
Azaghal wrote:The questionvBig Mac isv what can we take for SJ? 2 moons is always good, but we need to be aware of tidal mechanics.
WHAT tidal effects? There's no tides in Azeroth!! :mrgreen:
:lol:

You know, it wouldn't be too hard for the MMO to bring in tides at some point. They could have beaches that appear at low tide and vanish at high tide, and throw in quests that can only be done at low tide. And they could throw in one or two ports that shut down at low tide. Doing that would add realism, and also add in another cycle that makes the game force people to wait for certain things.

Joking aside, lets bear in mind that this forum is for "killing the MMO and taking its stuff", so we don't need to replicate all the weirdness of the online game or the standalone games.

Although, it is entirely valid for a fantasy world to have moons that exert no tidal pull. (I'm not sure that SJ's rules support gravity beyond the atmosphere of a world. But then Azeroth was never brought into the D&D cosmology, as far as I know.)
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:49 am

Well, we know from WoW lore that the murlocs are fleeing the deeper waters and coming to the shallows. The usual interpretation is that something dark is stirring in the deep (e.g. Azshara, the old gods, something else).

It might be more interesting to take the idea that the second moon was, in fact, Draenor and when it was destroyed during Warcraft 2's time, the tidal forces were so screwed up by the destruction that the tidal forces were so screwed up that the changes caused tremendous underwater upheaval (thus upsetting the ecosystem and driving various underwater creatures into new habitats). In a tabletop game, that might actually be a more interesting scenario than "yet another big bad evil rearing its head".
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:57 pm

Bonetti wrote:In a tabletop game, that might actually be a more interesting scenario than "yet another big bad evil rearing its head".
A bit of variety does make a world seem more real.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by dfryer36 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:23 am

If the Blue Child was Draenor shouldn't there be an astroid belt or something visible from Azeroth now, sort of like the Tears of Selune?
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:35 am

dfryer36 wrote:If the Blue Child was Draenor shouldn't there be an astroid belt or something visible from Azeroth now, sort of like the Tears of Selune?
An excellent question, that only Blizzard can answer. Maybe Outland is a destroyed Blue Child. :?
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:46 am

dfryer36 wrote:If the Blue Child was Draenor shouldn't there be an astroid belt or something visible from Azeroth now, sort of like the Tears of Selune?
It might be -- one can do what one wants in the tabletop game, which was the point of the thought :-) That's definitely a probable side effect if one goes down this route.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:30 pm

I wonder if there is somewhere where we can gain access to Blizzard developers. Perhaps this is all documented somewhere.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:06 pm

They do have some internal system for tracking lore, and a library with all the past publications. However, a lot of things are very fluid (until they're fixed), and they tend to change things around if it fits the game's needs. For instance, for Burning Crusade, they turned the history of the Burning Legion on its head and changed Eredar from "race" to "faction" (and the "Draenei" went from being human-ish to the same stock as the Eredar). It was a pretty large shift to retcon the new race into the game.

Unfortunately, my friend is no longer at the company, so my insider access is gone :-(

I suppose one could post on the Lore forums and see if anything comes up... :-) (My experience lurking on them, though, is that they tend not to do anything other than clarify existing lore -- they tend to avoid solidifying anything that doesn't need to be solidified right at the moment.)
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:04 pm

Bonetti wrote:Unfortunately, my friend is no longer at the company, so my insider access is gone :-(
Shame. I hope your friend has a fun new job.

To be honest, if we could find another "insider", I would be more keen to have contact with someone involved in the RPG design.
Bonetti wrote:I suppose one could post on the Lore forums and see if anything comes up... :-) (My experience lurking on them, though, is that they tend not to do anything other than clarify existing lore -- they tend to avoid solidifying anything that doesn't need to be solidified right at the moment.)
Is this a Lore subforum at Blizzard?
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:27 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:I suppose one could post on the Lore forums and see if anything comes up... :-)
Is this a Lore subforum at Blizzard?
I was thinking of this forum. So, yes, official, and occasionally Blizzard employees actually post on it.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:41 pm

Thanks for the link. My WoW account ran out, but I wonder if it is somehow dormant. Maybe I can convert it to Battlenet and post over there. :?
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:20 pm

Darn.
To end the constant debates and arguments, the flight has agreed to gather during the Embrace—an extraordinary celestial event in which Azeroth's two moons come into perfect alignment—in the hopes that a new Aspect will be selected.
Well... I guess it's just an oversight/omission on the part of the art team. In canon, both moons still exist.

...which doesn't at all change the potential ideas of destroying the Blue Child in a tabletop game.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Sun May 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Azaghal wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Azaghal wrote:The questionvBig Mac isv what can we take for SJ? 2 moons is always good, but we need to be aware of tidal mechanics.
A guy did a long series of articles about the scientific discoveries that could be demonstrated via experiements and I'm pretty sure he said that World of Warcraft was ignoring tidal mechanics.

Personally, I think that two moons would have an additive and subtractive effect, just like one moon and one sun does. When two moons and the sun line up you would get the higest tides.
Basically based on astronomical physics that`s how it should work, but we could do all sorts of differnet things with it.
Bonnetti's link has revealed that when the two moons line up, it is called the Embrace. :mrgreen:

Patch 4.2 is likely to reveal some of the effects that the Embrace causes. I can't imagine why the Embrace would be seen as an "extraordinary celestial event" as things like conjunctions, eclipses and so on happen on a regular schedule in the real world. Even Dragonlance's three moon conjunction (called the Night of the Eye) is not that infrequent in the timescale of dragon lifetimes.

Still, there might be reasons to make the Embrace less common than real-world celestial mechanics might suggest. I'll be interested to see what Blizzard put out about the frequency of the Embrace.
Bonetti wrote:Darn.
To end the constant debates and arguments, the flight has agreed to gather during the Embrace—an extraordinary celestial event in which Azeroth's two moons come into perfect alignment—in the hopes that a new Aspect will be selected.
Well... I guess it's just an oversight/omission on the part of the art team. In canon, both moons still exist.

...which doesn't at all change the potential ideas of destroying the Blue Child in a tabletop game.
While I don't wish to drop Selune's Tears on your parade*, as a Spelljammer fan, having Blue Child as a potential place to visit (even in the same style as Outland) is probably better for me than blowing it up (and blowing it up in a way that does not leave an asteroid field behind).

* = Did you see what I did there? :P

One other possible way to use this MMO thing** in a tabletop game would be to have some sort of epic plot make Blue Child become invisible or temporarily phase over to another part of the World of Warcraft cosmology. I don't know how well the patch additions are documented, but if a fairly important event kicked in in the same patch that Blue Child vanished from the sky (or a patch before or afterwards

** = Assuming you don't just take the easy option of handwavng the concept of the moon vanishing away and just leave it there.

Someone has added a sentence to the Wowpedia article for moon that claims that Earthmother sent Blue Child to explore the universe. The sentence has been slapped with a "citation" tag by another editor, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is not accurate (it could just be something put in by someone who does not understand how to add citations). I've asked for clarification on the talk page..

EDIT: I've dropped the split template on the Moon article and asked for them to consider having separate articles for White Lady and Blue Child. Meanwhile, I've added an introductory paragraph (based on the planet article) and some sections that make the article easier to read. I've also added a link over to the Plane Lady article.
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Bonetti » Wed May 18, 2011 2:45 am

Big Mac wrote:Patch 4.2 is likely to reveal some of the effects that the Embrace causes. I can't imagine why the Embrace would be seen as an "extraordinary celestial event" as things like conjunctions, eclipses and so on happen on a regular schedule in the real world. Even Dragonlance's three moon conjunction (called the Night of the Eye) is not that infrequent in the timescale of dragon lifetimes.

Still, there might be reasons to make the Embrace less common than real-world celestial mechanics might suggest. I'll be interested to see what Blizzard put out about the frequency of the Embrace.
"Infrequent". Probably the same as "soon", in Blizzard-speak (i.e. moving at the speed of plot, to borrow a phrase).

From the point of view of attempting to make the infrequency make sense, I would say that The Embrace is major because it is very, very rare. Not because the moons align infrequently, but because they're at different inclinations (along with other cosmic bodies) and so they all line up perfectly exceedingly rarely. Since this is a world of magic, that means more than just magnified gravitational forces, that means mystic alignments increasing magical/planar/whatever power and possibly opening temporary planar rifts or weakening dimensional walls. Since it may be rippling through the magical ether (or Twisting Nether, to be more correct), it may be agitating magically-aware beings more than regular beings -- and if one wants an excuse for the Burning Legion to mount another assault, when better than when the local magical inhabitants are all a bit wedged due to motion sickness from this fabric rippling?
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:...which doesn't at all change the potential ideas of destroying the Blue Child in a tabletop game.
While I don't wish to drop Selune's Tears on your parade*, as a Spelljammer fan, having Blue Child as a potential place to visit (even in the same style as Outland) is probably better for me than blowing it up (and blowing it up in a way that does not leave an asteroid field behind).
Yeah, but Outland is reduced to a few hunks of rock, only one of which is a decent asteroid size. I'd assume the rest fell to Azeroth as meteors and burned up as paths intersected (Oooh, the Year of Shooting Stars! World Event!), or were knocked far enough out of orbit to no longer be visible. I'd doubt even the chunk that is Outland would even be visible without a telescope, given that a world-sized world was far enough away to look moon-sized...

Oh, postscript to your question about "when". I suspect that an enterprising someone could start with the retail disks, patch up patch by patch, and examine the datafiles (the format is reasonably well known). I'd suggest checking now first to see if the texture data data is present but some multitexture shader is screwed up and accidentally dropped the moon. Patch notes are not really precise enough (since they're summarized) to note small things like "removed second moon for performance reasons on X videocards with Y driver".
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:13 am

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Patch 4.2 is likely to reveal some of the effects that the Embrace causes. I can't imagine why the Embrace would be seen as an "extraordinary celestial event" as things like conjunctions, eclipses and so on happen on a regular schedule in the real world. Even Dragonlance's three moon conjunction (called the Night of the Eye) is not that infrequent in the timescale of dragon lifetimes.

Still, there might be reasons to make the Embrace less common than real-world celestial mechanics might suggest. I'll be interested to see what Blizzard put out about the frequency of the Embrace.
"Infrequent". Probably the same as "soon", in Blizzard-speak (i.e. moving at the speed of plot, to borrow a phrase).

From the point of view of attempting to make the infrequency make sense, I would say that The Embrace is major because it is very, very rare. Not because the moons align infrequently, but because they're at different inclinations (along with other cosmic bodies) and so they all line up perfectly exceedingly rarely. Since this is a world of magic, that means more than just magnified gravitational forces, that means mystic alignments increasing magical/planar/whatever power and possibly opening temporary planar rifts or weakening dimensional walls. Since it may be rippling through the magical ether (or Twisting Nether, to be more correct), it may be agitating magically-aware beings more than regular beings -- and if one wants an excuse for the Burning Legion to mount another assault, when better than when the local magical inhabitants are all a bit wedged due to motion sickness from this fabric rippling?
True. I suppose they could also rule that The Embrace only happens when the alignment also lines up with a small area on the world (e.g. Stormwind).
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:...which doesn't at all change the potential ideas of destroying the Blue Child in a tabletop game.
While I don't wish to drop Selune's Tears on your parade*, as a Spelljammer fan, having Blue Child as a potential place to visit (even in the same style as Outland) is probably better for me than blowing it up (and blowing it up in a way that does not leave an asteroid field behind).
Yeah, but Outland is reduced to a few hunks of rock, only one of which is a decent asteroid size. I'd assume the rest fell to Azeroth as meteors and burned up as paths intersected (Oooh, the Year of Shooting Stars! World Event!), or were knocked far enough out of orbit to no longer be visible. I'd doubt even the chunk that is Outland would even be visible without a telescope, given that a world-sized world was far enough away to look moon-sized...
Given that The Embrace is a plot hook tied to Blue Child, I'd rather keep it around.
Bonetti wrote:Oh, postscript to your question about "when". I suspect that an enterprising someone could start with the retail disks, patch up patch by patch, and examine the datafiles (the format is reasonably well known). I'd suggest checking now first to see if the texture data data is present but some multitexture shader is screwed up and accidentally dropped the moon. Patch notes are not really precise enough (since they're summarized) to note small things like "removed second moon for performance reasons on X videocards with Y driver".
If I was rich and had minions, I'd get one of them to do this for me and take a ton of screen shots. :lol:
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nils
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by nils » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:55 am

About the two moons, There's a display of Azeroth in .. Halls of Stone? Lightning? Anyway; if memory serves me right it has two moon icons orbiting it. Draenor/Outland is NOT a moon of Azeroth; it has its own moon.

When I was still playing I tried to get something out of the GMs, but they don't know (or aren't telling) why the second moon was removed. What GMs say is not always cannon anyway, these guys are just a glorified customer helpdesk.

Technical reasons is what everybody else is saying but I haven't bothered to hunt down any references for that. There is no "in fiction" reason for the disappearance, and I think a disappearing moon is something the general population would at least remark upon, even if it is seen as something that they expect COULD happen.
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Big Mac
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Re: Azeroth once had two moons...

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:04 pm

nils wrote:About the two moons, There's a display of Azeroth in .. Halls of Stone? Lightning? Anyway; if memory serves me right it has two moon icons orbiting it. Draenor/Outland is NOT a moon of Azeroth; it has its own moon.
It is strange. They have not retconned it out, but clearly can't be bothered to put it back in.
nils wrote:When I was still playing I tried to get something out of the GMs, but they don't know (or aren't telling) why the second moon was removed. What GMs say is not always cannon anyway, these guys are just a glorified customer helpdesk.
The only time I ever spoke to GMs was to report spammers advertising levelling and gold farming websites.
nils wrote:Technical reasons is what everybody else is saying but I haven't bothered to hunt down any references for that. There is no "in fiction" reason for the disappearance, and I think a disappearing moon is something the general population would at least remark upon, even if it is seen as something that they expect COULD happen.
I think we will just need to wait for Blizzard to get around to dealing with this during a patch update.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
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