4E Dragons of Warcraft

Discuss the World of Warcraft campaign setting, as it relates to pen & paper RPGs, here.
The Book-House: Find Warcraft/World of Warcraft products.
User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:39 pm

Okay, I have been playing around with using some of the ideas from the various World of Warcraft expansions in a campaign using the Nentir Vale as a setting. One of the things that I love about WoW is the way dragons are treated and so I have started converting them to 4E. As I have never actually played the game, except of the free 10 day trial so I am using the pen and paper RPG as the basis for my conversion with some guidence from the WoWwiki. Anyway, here are my efforts. Enjoy and please give feedback.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:39 pm

Black Dragon Whelp (Homebrew) Level 9 Elite Soldier
Medium natural magical beast XP 800
Initiative +8 Senses Perception +11; darkvision
HP 188; Bloodied 94
AC 25; Fortitude 22; Reflex 21; Will 21
Resist 5 fire
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8 , Fly 10
Action Points 1
m Bite (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +16 vs AC; 2d6 + 5 damage
M Claws (standard; at-will)
+16 vs AC; 3d6 + 5 damage
R Ignite Flame (standard; recharge 4 5 6) • Fire
Range 5; +14 vs Will; 3d10 + 5 fire damage and the target's square is set on fire
C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire
+14 vs Reflex; 3d10 + 5 fire damage and 5 ongoing fire damage (save ends)
Bloodied Breath (free, when the dragon is first bloodied; encounter)
The dragon's breath weapon recharges and the dragon uses it.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Arcana +11, Insight +11
Str 20 (+9) Dex 14 (+6) Wis 14 (+6)
Con 14 (+6) Int 14 (+6) Cha 14 (+6)
© 2009 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This monster statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:44 pm

Black Dragon Drake (Homebrew) Level 24 Elite Soldier
Large natural magical beast XP 12,100
Initiative +20 Senses Perception +23; low-light vision
HP 444; Bloodied 222
AC 40; Fortitude 37; Reflex 36; Will 36
Resist 15 fire
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8 , Fly 10 (hover)
Action Points 1
m Bite (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +31 vs AC; 3d6 + 8 damage
M Claws (standard; at-will)
+31 vs AC; 3d6 + 8 damage
M Vicious Swipe (standard; at-will)
+31 vs AC; 4d6 + 8 damage and 10 ongoing damage (save ends)
Fireball (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire
Burst 3 within 15; +29 vs Reflex; 4d12 + 8 fire damage. Miss: half damage
R Ignite Fire (standard; recharge 4 5 6) • Fire
Range 5; +29 vs Will; 5d10 + 8 fire damage, the target takes 10 ongoing fire damage, and the target's square is set on fire
C Mind Burn (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire, Psychic
Close burst 5; +29 vs Will; 4d12 + 8 fie damage and the dragon can shift the target 2 squares in any diection
C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire
+29 vs Reflex; 5d10 + 8 fire damage and the target take 15 ongoing fire damage (save ends)
Bloodied Breath (free, when the dragon is first bloodied; encounter)
The dragon's breath weapon recharges and the dragon uses it
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Arcana +23, Insight +23
Str 28 (+21) Dex 22 (+18) Wis 22 (+18)
Con 22 (+18) Int 22 (+18) Cha 22 (+18)
© 2009 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This monster statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:44 pm

Black Dragon (Homebrew) Level 16 Elite Soldier
Large natural magical beast XP 2,800
Initiative +14 Senses Perception +17; low-light vision
HP 308; Bloodied 154
AC 32; Fortitude 29; Reflex 28; Will 28
Resist 10 fire
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8 , Fly 10 (hover)
Action Points 1
m Bite (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +23 vs AC; 2d8 + 7 damage
M Claws (standard; at-will)
+23 vs AC; 2d8 + 7 damage
R Ignite Fire (standard; recharge 4 5 6) • Fire
Range 5; +21 vs Will; 4d10 + 7 fire damage, the target takes 5 ongoing fire damage and the target's square is set on fire
C Mind Burn (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire, Psychic
Close burst 5; +21 vs Will; 2d8 + 7 fire damage and the dragon can shift the target two squares in any direction
C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire
Close blast 5; +21 vs Reflex; 4d12 + 7 fire damage and the target takes 10 ongoing fire damage (save ends)
Bloodied Breath (free, when the dragon is first bloodied; encounter)
The dragon's breath weapon recharges and the dragon uses it
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Arcana +17, Insight +17
Str 24 (+15) Dex 18 (+12) Wis 18 (+12)
Con 18 (+12) Int 18 (+12) Cha 18 (+12)
© 2009 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This monster statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:39 pm

Removed duplicate post
Last edited by dfryer36 on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:40 pm

Black Dragon Wyrm (Homebrew) Level 31 Elite Soldier
Huge natural XP 46,000
Initiative +24 Senses Perception +27; low-light vision
Wreath of Flames aura 2; Any enemy entering or ending their turn in the aura take 20 fire damage
HP 562; Bloodied 281
AC 47; Fortitude 44; Reflex 43; Will 43
Resist 20 fire
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8 , Fly 10 (hover)
Action Points 1
m Bite (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +38 vs AC; 4d8 + 10 damage
M Claws (standard; at-will)
+38 vs AC; 3d8 + 10 damage
M Tail Swipe (standard; at-will)
+38 vs AC; 4d8 + 10 damage and the target is knocked prone
M Vicious Swipe (standard; at-will)
+38 vs AC; 2d8 + 10 damage and 15 ongoing damage (save ends)
A Fireball (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire
Burst 3 within 15; +36 vs Reflex; 5d12 + 9 fire damage, Miss: half damage
R Ignite Fire (standard; recharge 4 5 6) • Fire
Range 5; +38 vs AC; 5d10 + 9 fire damage, the target takes 15 ongoing fire damage, and the target's square is set on fire.
C Mind Burn (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire, Psychic
Close burst 5; +36 vs Will; 4d10 + 9 fire damage and the dragon can shift the target 2 squares in any direction
C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) • Fire
Close blast 5; +38 vs AC; 5d12 + 9 fire damage and the target takes 20 ongoing fire damage (save ends)
Bloodied Breath (free, when the dragon is first bloodied; encounter)
The dragon's breath weapon recharges and the dragon uses it
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Arcana +27, Insight +27
Str 31 (+25) Dex 25 (+22) Wis 25 (+22)
Con 25 (+22) Int 25 (+22) Cha 25 (+22)
© 2009 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This monster statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Big Mac » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:00 am

dfryer36 wrote:Enjoy and please give feedback.
Sadly I don't know 4e, so I can't really comment on these, but they look like a nice set.

If you actually published the 3e stats that you were basing these on, I could steal them for my game muhahahah see what you were trying to do and maybe comment. Perhaps Bonetti can chip in.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Gender: male
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Bonetti » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:06 pm

Big Mac wrote:Perhaps Bonetti can chip in.
Thanks for the reminder, I've been meaning to return to this post when I had time. Note: I don't actually have time right now, but...

Given the style of 4e, I'd probably try to cleave more closely to the WoW stats than the RPG stats. I would also note that the "dragons" are all raid bosses (or other elites), e.g. the Test of Skulls elites for the Horde Onyxia keychain, Onyxia, Nefarion, Azuregos, etc. The rest (even if they look dragon-like) are drakes, which is what are statted, above.

I'd change the breath weapon from recharge (number) to recharge (action). One of the things that made whelps nasty was the ability to breathe at your character, but it had a cooldown (and players had interrupt capability). In 4e, that could be handled by something like:

Standard Action
(+) Claw, +X vs. AC, AdB+C damage
< Breath, +X vs. AC, EdF+G damage (possibly area burst), Recharge: use of Claw (high level, lets the monster breathe every other round) or on bloodied (low level, but I see you are using that in a couple places).

(In my experience running 4e so far, predictable recharge is much more interesting and useful than random recharge -- random has a pretty good chance of never recharging, so they become one-offs.)

I'd change the "square set on fire" to a fire zone (X fire damage on entry/starting a turn there), and increase it past the one square. Probably 1 square in heroic tier, 3x3 in paragon, and 5x5 in epic, just to make the battlefield more dangerous and force additional tradeoffs in decisions.

For the Real Dragons (i.e. the bosses), they need to be solo elites, probably buffer than they would come out of Monster Builder as, and they should keep the nasty mechanics. Specifically, the area attacks (cleave a la Onyxia), phases to the fight, and the periodic fear. However, those aren't the critters described here :-)

Actually, I really should stat out a couple of the raid bosses. I've been meaning to, and the fights can be quite interesting...
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Big Mac » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:57 pm

Bonetti wrote:For the Real Dragons (i.e. the bosses), they need to be solo elites, probably buffer than they would come out of Monster Builder as, and they should keep the nasty mechanics. Specifically, the area attacks (cleave a la Onyxia), phases to the fight, and the periodic fear. However, those aren't the critters described here :-)

Actually, I really should stat out a couple of the raid bosses. I've been meaning to, and the fights can be quite interesting...
Unfortunately, only half of this actually means anything to me (due to my lack of 4e-fu).

Are you saying that a dragon (WoW:RPG style) should always be a fully developed NPC (rather than a cookie-cutter dragon)? And are you saying that boss monsters (from the MMO) should always be designed to fight the PCs alone (in the tabletop translation)?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
BotWizo
Fire Giant
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:36 am
Gender: male
Location: Barbarian Lands - Brun (Iowa - USA)

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by BotWizo » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:57 pm

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Perhaps Bonetti can chip in.
Thanks for the reminder, I've been meaning to return to this post when I had time. Note: I don't actually have time right now, but...

Given the style of 4e, I'd probably try to cleave more closely to the WoW stats than the RPG stats. I would also note that the "dragons" are all raid bosses (or other elites), e.g. the Test of Skulls elites for the Horde Onyxia keychain, Onyxia, Nefarion, Azuregos, etc. The rest (even if they look dragon-like) are drakes, which is what are statted, above.

I'd change the breath weapon from recharge (number) to recharge (action). One of the things that made whelps nasty was the ability to breathe at your character, but it had a cooldown (and players had interrupt capability). In 4e, that could be handled by something like:

Standard Action
(+) Claw, +X vs. AC, AdB+C damage
< Breath, +X vs. AC, EdF+G damage (possibly area burst), Recharge: use of Claw (high level, lets the monster breathe every other round) or on bloodied (low level, but I see you are using that in a couple places).

(In my experience running 4e so far, predictable recharge is much more interesting and useful than random recharge -- random has a pretty good chance of never recharging, so they become one-offs.)

I'd change the "square set on fire" to a fire zone (X fire damage on entry/starting a turn there), and increase it past the one square. Probably 1 square in heroic tier, 3x3 in paragon, and 5x5 in epic, just to make the battlefield more dangerous and force additional tradeoffs in decisions.

For the Real Dragons (i.e. the bosses), they need to be solo elites, probably buffer than they would come out of Monster Builder as, and they should keep the nasty mechanics. Specifically, the area attacks (cleave a la Onyxia), phases to the fight, and the periodic fear. However, those aren't the critters described here :-)

Actually, I really should stat out a couple of the raid bosses. I've been meaning to, and the fights can be quite interesting...
Dfryer were these dragons made using the new style/rules for solos that wotc has moved to lately? Building these solos with the newer style done for solo dragons might give you some of the feel Bonetti is driving for, and then add in his cool suggestions as well.

(the new style recharges breath weapons and other actions at certain points in the fight, as well as give solos more than one attack in the initiative order a round.
Game over man... Game over! -- Pvt. Hudson

User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Gender: male
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Bonetti » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:58 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:For the Real Dragons (i.e. the bosses), they need to be solo elites, probably buffer than they would come out of Monster Builder as, and they should keep the nasty mechanics. Specifically, the area attacks (cleave a la Onyxia), phases to the fight, and the periodic fear. However, those aren't the critters described here :-)

Actually, I really should stat out a couple of the raid bosses. I've been meaning to, and the fights can be quite interesting...
Unfortunately, only half of this actually means anything to me (due to my lack of 4e-fu).

Are you saying that a dragon (WoW:RPG style) should always be a fully developed NPC (rather than a cookie-cutter dragon)? And are you saying that boss monsters (from the MMO) should always be designed to fight the PCs alone (in the tabletop translation)?
Fundamentally, the only things that the lore guys at Blizzard called "Dragons" were the actual rulers/leaders of the dragonflights. The named-by-type (e.g. black whelpling) were all drakes, even if they look (to D&D eyes) like dragons.

The Wowpedia page on Dragons suggests them as being age categories: whelp, drake, dragon, wyrm. I'm not sure I buy that based on the MMO material (and discussions on the forums). The only ones that seemed to be "dragons" are the named guys: Onyxia, Nefarion, Deathwing(Neltharion), Azuregos, etc, and they all come with a unique model and I believe they were all instance/raid bosses.

It always felt, in-game, like the dragons were ancient and intelligent, and the whelplings/drakes were dumb (and the whelplings were young), and that was the distinguishing factor. However, the lifecycle makes sense, too, if intelligence grows over time for this species.

I do recall discussions on the WoW forums a long time ago reminding players not to refer to the drakes as dragons, but I can't recall the precise distinction. That's the only real distinction I'm following here -- but the wowpedia article does sort of override that (dragon as age category vs. dragon as species, which does include drakes/whelps).

In my opinion, the full-blown dragons should be unique, intelligent encounters -- and they should be powerful. The five Aspects are approaching godhood, as they have the power and task of safeguarding the Titans' work on Azeroth, and their dragonflights help with maintaining their specific subset (magic, the emerald dream, life, time, and the world). It should be An Event to tackle a dragon.

Drakes and whelplings, however, are random spawns in various locations, and are general quest monsters while leveling :-)
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:07 pm

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:For the Real Dragons (i.e. the bosses), they need to be solo elites, probably buffer than they would come out of Monster Builder as, and they should keep the nasty mechanics. Specifically, the area attacks (cleave a la Onyxia), phases to the fight, and the periodic fear. However, those aren't the critters described here :-)

Actually, I really should stat out a couple of the raid bosses. I've been meaning to, and the fights can be quite interesting...
Unfortunately, only half of this actually means anything to me (due to my lack of 4e-fu).

Are you saying that a dragon (WoW:RPG style) should always be a fully developed NPC (rather than a cookie-cutter dragon)? And are you saying that boss monsters (from the MMO) should always be designed to fight the PCs alone (in the tabletop translation)?
Fundamentally, the only things that the lore guys at Blizzard called "Dragons" were the actual rulers/leaders of the dragonflights. The named-by-type (e.g. black whelpling) were all drakes, even if they look (to D&D eyes) like dragons.

The Wowpedia page on Dragons suggests them as being age categories: whelp, drake, dragon, wyrm. I'm not sure I buy that based on the MMO material (and discussions on the forums). The only ones that seemed to be "dragons" are the named guys: Onyxia, Nefarion, Deathwing(Neltharion), Azuregos, etc, and they all come with a unique model and I believe they were all instance/raid bosses.

It always felt, in-game, like the dragons were ancient and intelligent, and the whelplings/drakes were dumb (and the whelplings were young), and that was the distinguishing factor. However, the lifecycle makes sense, too, if intelligence grows over time for this species.

I do recall discussions on the WoW forums a long time ago reminding players not to refer to the drakes as dragons, but I can't recall the precise distinction. That's the only real distinction I'm following here -- but the wowpedia article does sort of override that (dragon as age category vs. dragon as species, which does include drakes/whelps).

In my opinion, the full-blown dragons should be unique, intelligent encounters -- and they should be powerful. The five Aspects are approaching godhood, as they have the power and task of safeguarding the Titans' work on Azeroth, and their dragonflights help with maintaining their specific subset (magic, the emerald dream, life, time, and the world). It should be An Event to tackle a dragon.

Drakes and whelplings, however, are random spawns in various locations, and are general quest monsters while leveling :-)
Well, if D&D can have critters, like dragon turtles, that have the dragon type, but are not true dragons, it should be possible to have large monsters that look like dragons...but are not true dragons (in the World of Warcraft sense).

Dark Sun has specialist dragons, that don't fit in with normal D&D logic, and I think that worked pretty well.

Seeing the most recent WoW MMO animated trailer, the dragon in that appeared to be very large. I wonder if it would be as large as one of the specialist dragons in the Spelljammer Campaign Setting (the Radiant Dragon and the Celestial Dragon are both larger than groundling dragons).

How would you translate this in RPG terms? Would you knock the intelligence out of conventional dragons to create drakes?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:22 pm

BotWizo wrote: Dfryer were these dragons made using the new style/rules for solos that wotc has moved to lately? Building these solos with the newer style done for solo dragons might give you some of the feel Bonetti is driving for, and then add in his cool suggestions as well.

(the new style recharges breath weapons and other actions at certain points in the fight, as well as give solos more than one attack in the initiative order a round.
They were built using the monster creator with the latest updates, so I am assuming they are. I actually built them as elites rather than solos because that is the way WotC went in MM3 with the catastrophic dragons. I personally prefer that to solos, because solos never seem to show up alone anyway.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Gender: male
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Bonetti » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:54 am

Big Mac wrote:Well, if D&D can have critters, like dragon turtles, that have the dragon type, but are not true dragons, it should be possible to have large monsters that look like dragons...but are not true dragons (in the World of Warcraft sense).
Oh, I'm not objecting. I just have this vague recollection that at one time the Blizzard posters on the forums drew a strong distinction between drakes and dragons and took some players to task for thinking the drakes scattered around the world were "dragons". They may not have sorted it all out yet, though.
Big Mac wrote:Seeing the most recent WoW MMO animated trailer, the dragon in that appeared to be very large. I wonder if it would be as large as one of the specialist dragons in the Spelljammer Campaign Setting (the Radiant Dragon and the Celestial Dragon are both larger than groundling dragons).
It's hard to say. Scale is flexible.

Basically, the client can render any of the models at any size. In-game models have details which are dictated by, among other things, how isolated they are. A raid boss can be quite a bit more detailed than something which attacks in packs of twenty, since it can be expected that you only have the room and the boss at a given time. This is why the original Onyxia model was so detailed relative to most other monsters. The same thing for Ragnaros -- although he eventually had a mini-pet (of sorts) introduced, which showed that even his giant raid-boss model could show up the size of a squirrel... Furthermore, the mechanics of having ten, twenty-five, or (in the old days) forty players attacking one monster meant it needed to be huge to avoid being lost in the crowd. So, even theoretically human-sized bad guys (like the lich Kel'Thuzad) were made huge for practical reasons.

That being said, the five Aspects (Alexstrasza, Ysera, Nozdormu, Malygos, and Neltharion (Deathwing)) are the oldest and most intelligent of the dragons, and they were the first reshaped by the Titans. Since it appears that dragons both grow and become smarter over time, this may explain why they tend to appear as humans (for practical reasons) when interacting with human-sized creatures -- and that would mean that, yes, Deathwing is gigantic. I haven't had time to find him in-game yet (in a non-scripted sequence), so I'm not sure what his in-game scale is. However, landing on the towers over the entrance to Stormwind suggests that he's pretty big.

I don't have my books handy -- you'd have to refresh my memory on the SJ dragons :-)
Big Mac wrote:How would you translate this in RPG terms? Would you knock the intelligence out of conventional dragons to create drakes?
In 2e terms (the last system I got to DM anything much more powerful than, say, ogres), I'd say that INT = age category * 2, and that whelpings are basically 1 & 2, drakes are 3-6, dragons are 7-10, and wyrms are 11+. Those are very rough, and probably not accurate since WoW dragons scale much further than the 2e dragons did.

In 4e, dfryer has the correct approach: craft them individually. The whelplings are probably interchangeable, stat-wise, but adjust the damage type based on the flight. Above that, they start picking up interesting abilities (and resistances). Drakes seem to run through normal intelligence, at least, if not a little above human norm. I think the daily quests at Wyrmrest were drake-back, not dragon-back (or at least they were drake models), but I don't recall if the quest text specified.

For an MMO-like Warcraft dragon, they're going to be smart with abilities, but dumb enough to stand and fight (mmmmm, loot pinata). For more of an RPG feel, I'd say drakes and above at least have enough sense of self-preservation to fly away as needed -- and the dragons are probably close to unkillable without a way to nail them in place.
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:20 pm

Okay, here is my question for you Bonetti. I have been reading on the WoWwiki about proto-drakes/proto-dragons and I would like to know how you would treat them. The animation model looks like it would be a wyvern in D&D terms minus the poison sting and adding a breath weapon. Is that correct or would you handle them differently.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Gender: male
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Bonetti » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:04 pm

dfryer36 wrote:Okay, here is my question for you Bonetti. I have been reading on the WoWwiki about proto-drakes/proto-dragons and I would like to know how you would treat them. The animation model looks like it would be a wyvern in D&D terms minus the poison sting and adding a breath weapon. Is that correct or would you handle them differently.
Hrm. I'm trying to remember if I fought them -- I just remember flying on them :-) Looking at the article reminds me that the Vrykul have a bunch, and they do have breath weapons.

One of the things to bear in mind is that the Titans reshaped existing species or created new species when they populated Azeroth (and reclaimed it from the chaotic and corrupting Old Gods). They build the Earthen and Mecha-gnomes (and possibly the Vrykul), who became the Dwarves and Gnomes (and possibly humans) when the Curse of Flesh affected them. The Titans also elevated existing species, such as the proto-dragons, by adding intelligence and setting them to watch over the world (thus creating the Aspects and the Dragonflights).

My memory of lore is that it was pretty specific that they only really added intelligence. So, I would probably have the proto-dragons be non-magical and pretty stupid in nature, preserving any physical/natural abilities (e.g. breath weapons, cleave attacks, wing buffets) but dropping non-animal-cunning tactics and spellcasting ability.

You know, between the new Archaeology skill and all the history embodied in the Wrath expansion and Titan reveals (combined with the new material in Uldum), there's probably a pretty exciting "let's delve into history!" campaign in there somewhere. That would present great opportunities for examining this material and stressing the changes over time.
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:49 pm

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Well, if D&D can have critters, like dragon turtles, that have the dragon type, but are not true dragons, it should be possible to have large monsters that look like dragons...but are not true dragons (in the World of Warcraft sense).
Oh, I'm not objecting. I just have this vague recollection that at one time the Blizzard posters on the forums drew a strong distinction between drakes and dragons and took some players to task for thinking the drakes scattered around the world were "dragons". They may not have sorted it all out yet, though.
I was kind of agreeing with you, and trying to speculate on the form a drake might take. I think David F. had the right idea. Here is the article for drakes on Wowpedia:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Drake

It has a great picture:
Image

That looks pretty much like dragons to me. The sentence here is pretty intersting: "Drakes are dragons that are still relatively young in comparison to their ancient brethren."

If that is true, it looks like drakes are dragon-clones.
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Seeing the most recent WoW MMO animated trailer, the dragon in that appeared to be very large. I wonder if it would be as large as one of the specialist dragons in the Spelljammer Campaign Setting (the Radiant Dragon and the Celestial Dragon are both larger than groundling dragons).
It's hard to say. Scale is flexible.

Basically, the client can render any of the models at any size. In-game models have details which are dictated by, among other things, how isolated they are. A raid boss can be quite a bit more detailed than something which attacks in packs of twenty, since it can be expected that you only have the room and the boss at a given time. This is why the original Onyxia model was so detailed relative to most other monsters. The same thing for Ragnaros -- although he eventually had a mini-pet (of sorts) introduced, which showed that even his giant raid-boss model could show up the size of a squirrel... Furthermore, the mechanics of having ten, twenty-five, or (in the old days) forty players attacking one monster meant it needed to be huge to avoid being lost in the crowd. So, even theoretically human-sized bad guys (like the lich Kel'Thuzad) were made huge for practical reasons.

That being said, the five Aspects (Alexstrasza, Ysera, Nozdormu, Malygos, and Neltharion (Deathwing)) are the oldest and most intelligent of the dragons, and they were the first reshaped by the Titans. Since it appears that dragons both grow and become smarter over time, this may explain why they tend to appear as humans (for practical reasons) when interacting with human-sized creatures -- and that would mean that, yes, Deathwing is gigantic. I haven't had time to find him in-game yet (in a non-scripted sequence), so I'm not sure what his in-game scale is. However, landing on the towers over the entrance to Stormwind suggests that he's pretty big.

I don't have my books handy -- you'd have to refresh my memory on the SJ dragons :-)
Your comment about Kel'Thuzad is very very informative. I didn't realise that Blizzard's MMO programmers were cheating with monster scale (as well as location scale). I guess we can't trust anything from the MMO.

But in the absence of any other information, I could go with the MMO dragon sizes. It makes them more "epic" and goes with the bespoke nature.

SJ dragons are large enough to break ships up. A radiant dragon is between 3 and 40 foot long at age category 1 and grows to a mighty 1,102-1,400 foot long by age category 12.
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:How would you translate this in RPG terms? Would you knock the intelligence out of conventional dragons to create drakes?
In 2e terms (the last system I got to DM anything much more powerful than, say, ogres), I'd say that INT = age category * 2, and that whelpings are basically 1 & 2, drakes are 3-6, dragons are 7-10, and wyrms are 11+. Those are very rough, and probably not accurate since WoW dragons scale much further than the 2e dragons did.

In 4e, dfryer has the correct approach: craft them individually. The whelplings are probably interchangeable, stat-wise, but adjust the damage type based on the flight. Above that, they start picking up interesting abilities (and resistances). Drakes seem to run through normal intelligence, at least, if not a little above human norm. I think the daily quests at Wyrmrest were drake-back, not dragon-back (or at least they were drake models), but I don't recall if the quest text specified.

For an MMO-like Warcraft dragon, they're going to be smart with abilities, but dumb enough to stand and fight (mmmmm, loot pinata). For more of an RPG feel, I'd say drakes and above at least have enough sense of self-preservation to fly away as needed -- and the dragons are probably close to unkillable without a way to nail them in place.
MMO monsters have very small areas they stay in and I do think that, for the RPG, I'd be inclined to allow them to travel across the entire area where any of them can be encountered. (i.e. instead of 10 fixed drakes, I'd have 10 mobile ones. Perhaps they could be organised into one or two family groups, that roam the area.)
dfryer36 wrote:I have been reading on the WoWwiki about proto-drakes/proto-dragons...
I would bookmark Wowpedia, if I was you. They split away from Wikia (Wikia grabbed the old name) and Wowpedia is much more likely to get updated than WoWWiki.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Gender: male
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Bonetti » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:18 am

Big Mac wrote:That looks pretty much like dragons to me. The sentence here is pretty intersting: "Drakes are dragons that are still relatively young in comparison to their ancient brethren."

If that is true, it looks like drakes are dragon-clones.
...or are simply young dragons -- or descended from the same species from which the Titans elevated the Aspects, and thus are missing the extra "bump" of intelligence and longevity that the Titans granted.
Big Mac wrote:Your comment about Kel'Thuzad is very very informative. I didn't realise that Blizzard's MMO programmers were cheating with monster scale (as well as location scale). I guess we can't trust anything from the MMO.

But in the absence of any other information, I could go with the MMO dragon sizes. It makes them more "epic" and goes with the bespoke nature.

SJ dragons are large enough to break ships up. A radiant dragon is between 3 and 40 foot long at age category 1 and grows to a mighty 1,102-1,400 foot long by age category 12.
I would play the fully mature, ancient dragons (especially the aspects or those of comparable power) as gigantic. It makes sense, it works in lore, and it does feel epic.

One thing to bear in mind when adapting from WoW, though, is that the demands of a continually-online, cooperative game are distinct from a tabletop game's requirements (although there is some overlap, and the goal is still entertainment). So, I would almost certainly not include the zeppelins and taxi services in a tabletop game (except as story-pushing, extraordinary things), nor would I have Arthas be 6x normal human height. I also wouldn't let people stand inside other people (or monsters), nor have what should be thriving towns have a dozen or so inhabitants. Granted, the PCs may only interact with a similar small subset, but I'd ensure that it felt populated, instead of having a town like Ratchet be practically deserted. (Same for scaling up continental distances. What makes sense for a computer game may not make sense for the table.)

I'd probably allow my game to be informed by the MMO, but not dictated by it -- if I ran something in Azeroth :-) A good reminder, though :-)
Big Mac wrote:MMO monsters have very small areas they stay in and I do think that, for the RPG, I'd be inclined to allow them to travel across the entire area where any of them can be encountered. (i.e. instead of 10 fixed drakes, I'd have 10 mobile ones. Perhaps they could be organised into one or two family groups, that roam the area.)
Well, that's back to large community in small, persistent world sharing content design limitation. I'd have areas where certain types are more common, but certain types could easily wander further -- especially anything that flies.

Oh, and I'd second the Wowpedia vs. Wowwiki comment. Wowpedia seems to be more reliably updated at the moment, although I haven't done a detailed comparison.
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:15 pm

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:That looks pretty much like dragons to me. The sentence here is pretty intersting: "Drakes are dragons that are still relatively young in comparison to their ancient brethren."

If that is true, it looks like drakes are dragon-clones.
...or are simply young dragons -- or descended from the same species from which the Titans elevated the Aspects, and thus are missing the extra "bump" of intelligence and longevity that the Titans granted.
Your logic sounds solid to me. But the Wowpedia page does sugest otherwise and I'd love to find out where they get their idea from. If someting somewhere, says that drakes came after dragons, I would love to read it and find out why they are saying things that way. It sounds backwards, but perhaps they have some sort of interesting reason.
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Your comment about Kel'Thuzad is very very informative. I didn't realise that Blizzard's MMO programmers were cheating with monster scale (as well as location scale). I guess we can't trust anything from the MMO.

But in the absence of any other information, I could go with the MMO dragon sizes. It makes them more "epic" and goes with the bespoke nature.

SJ dragons are large enough to break ships up. A radiant dragon is between 3 and 40 foot long at age category 1 and grows to a mighty 1,102-1,400 foot long by age category 12.
I would play the fully mature, ancient dragons (especially the aspects or those of comparable power) as gigantic. It makes sense, it works in lore, and it does feel epic.

One thing to bear in mind when adapting from WoW, though, is that the demands of a continually-online, cooperative game are distinct from a tabletop game's requirements (although there is some overlap, and the goal is still entertainment). So, I would almost certainly not include the zeppelins and taxi services in a tabletop game (except as story-pushing, extraordinary things), nor would I have Arthas be 6x normal human height. I also wouldn't let people stand inside other people (or monsters), nor have what should be thriving towns have a dozen or so inhabitants. Granted, the PCs may only interact with a similar small subset, but I'd ensure that it felt populated, instead of having a town like Ratchet be practically deserted. (Same for scaling up continental distances. What makes sense for a computer game may not make sense for the table.)
I would keep zeppelins, but not as a free travel system. I think they add something to the setting, but I would want PCs to have to earn passage on a zeppelin. I think that people who travel (and conduct commerce) via zeppelins could be based on sea-sailors, Eberron's air-ships or Spelljammer. If the zeppelins were a foundation of the goblin economy, perhaps they might not be willing to allow any random person (or the PCs) to use their ships. But if the PCs hired on with some goblin groups and helped out with some problems various goblins had, they could build up a reputation (in a similar way to the MMO) and eventually become important enough to be allowed to pay for passage.

I totally agree about Arthas and any person or creature that is larger than other creatures of the same type. I think that there is a place for using differences of scale in fantasy RPGs, but, as you have pointed out, what the MMO is doing doesn't really have much to do with creating a good storyline.

I would definitely enforce D&D rules on how close people can get to each other, and still fight. That is one thing I already noticed. In fact it is something that makes me dislike the MMO experience.

As for the towns, I think it was Night Druid who was putting out numbers. I would want to rebuild towns based on those numbers. (This is actually somewhere where I wonder if the earlier Warcraft games - and the novels - might have alternative descriptions of certain places.)
Bonetti wrote:I'd probably allow my game to be informed by the MMO, but not dictated by it -- if I ran something in Azeroth :-) A good reminder, though :-)
Me too. I'd be inclined to use the time period from the WoW: RPG books, and use the MMO for additional information and inspiration.
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:MMO monsters have very small areas they stay in and I do think that, for the RPG, I'd be inclined to allow them to travel across the entire area where any of them can be encountered. (i.e. instead of 10 fixed drakes, I'd have 10 mobile ones. Perhaps they could be organised into one or two family groups, that roam the area.)
Well, that's back to large community in small, persistent world sharing content design limitation. I'd have areas where certain types are more common, but certain types could easily wander further -- especially anything that flies.

Oh, and I'd second the Wowpedia vs. Wowwiki comment. Wowpedia seems to be more reliably updated at the moment, although I haven't done a detailed comparison.
One advantage that RPGs have over MMOs, is that critters can cross area boundries. You could even have flying creatures attack a zepplin or a flying mount.

Given that Wikia sacked all of the admins on WoWWiki, I think that they are going to avoid looking after the old wiki. From what I understand, their original idea was to wait for new admins and then slowly pull out. However, I do think this is a "Highlander situation" (i.e. there can be only one).
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Gender: male
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Bonetti » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:21 am

Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:...or are simply young dragons -- or descended from the same species from which the Titans elevated the Aspects, and thus are missing the extra "bump" of intelligence and longevity that the Titans granted.
Your logic sounds solid to me. But the Wowpedia page does sugest otherwise and I'd love to find out where they get their idea from. If someting somewhere, says that drakes came after dragons, I would love to read it and find out why they are saying things that way. It sounds backwards, but perhaps they have some sort of interesting reason.
I really don't think they think it through as completely as the community does. When the community has filled in gaps, which were later filled in by Blizzard, the community ideas were often superior :-)[1]

If I were running it as a game, and I needed the history, I'd probably say that the dragons are the elevated branch, the drakes are the unelevated branch. There would probably be a drake-like ancestor between the proto-drake and the Titans' meddling. The page on dragons suggests that they're distinct species, given that dragons were numerous (and had more than the five flights), but I'd swear I read that they were not intelligent until the Titans set them up as guardians. I can't remember where I read that, though. It might be my interpretation of the Blizzard timeline :-)

Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:So, I would almost certainly not include the zeppelins and taxi services in a tabletop game (except as story-pushing, extraordinary things)
I would keep zeppelins, but not as a free travel system. I think they add something to the setting, but I would want PCs to have to earn passage on a zeppelin. I think that people who travel (and conduct commerce) via zeppelins could be based on sea-sailors, Eberron's air-ships or Spelljammer. If the zeppelins were a foundation of the goblin economy, perhaps they might not be willing to allow any random person (or the PCs) to use their ships. But if the PCs hired on with some goblin groups and helped out with some problems various goblins had, they could build up a reputation (in a similar way to the MMO) and eventually become important enough to be allowed to pay for passage.
That's more or less what I intended :-)
Big Mac wrote:As for the towns, I think it was Night Druid who was putting out numbers. I would want to rebuild towns based on those numbers. (This is actually somewhere where I wonder if the earlier Warcraft games - and the novels - might have alternative descriptions of certain places.)
It would be an interesting net project to do something like that. I'd swipe the NPCs and their stories (where known) from the MMO for consistency, but the MMO doesn't even come close to the populations as described in the books. It does give a skeletal starting point, though.

I don't recall that the games had much for non-world/non-combat maps. The initial settlement of Orgrimmar is a downloadable adventure for Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, if memory serves. That adventure established Rexxar and Misha and their status with the Horde. I think the valley that Orgrimmar is in is shaped quite similarly to the one in the MMO, but I haven't done a point-by-point comparison yet.
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:I'd probably allow my game to be informed by the MMO, but not dictated by it -- if I ran something in Azeroth :-) A good reminder, though :-)
Me too. I'd be inclined to use the time period from the WoW: RPG books, and use the MMO for additional information and inspiration.
To be honest, I'd probably either run something Draenei/Blood Elf/Outland/Naaru-based (because I think that opens up the most interesting experimental possibilities -- stories to draw on, barely sketched histories, and a mostly-abandoned storyline) or run the Warcraft 3 Scourge Invasion plus race for the Throne (maybe) and the Wrath of the Lich King stories. That would place it squarely in the MMO time, but I'd change anything that needed changing to work as a tabletop game.

[1] Thinking about it, I think the reason I've stayed away from running something in Azeroth is to avoid both the level of creation and resolution I'd need to make the world comfortable, and to avoid feeling the need to stay reasonably consistent with the MMO. There are a lot of large gaps to fill in, and I really don't have the time to do that :-)
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:05 pm

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:...or are simply young dragons -- or descended from the same species from which the Titans elevated the Aspects, and thus are missing the extra "bump" of intelligence and longevity that the Titans granted.
Your logic sounds solid to me. But the Wowpedia page does sugest otherwise and I'd love to find out where they get their idea from. If someting somewhere, says that drakes came after dragons, I would love to read it and find out why they are saying things that way. It sounds backwards, but perhaps they have some sort of interesting reason.
I really don't think they think it through as completely as the community does. When the community has filled in gaps, which were later filled in by Blizzard, the community ideas were often superior :-)[1]

If I were running it as a game, and I needed the history, I'd probably say that the dragons are the elevated branch, the drakes are the unelevated branch. There would probably be a drake-like ancestor between the proto-drake and the Titans' meddling. The page on dragons suggests that they're distinct species, given that dragons were numerous (and had more than the five flights), but I'd swear I read that they were not intelligent until the Titans set them up as guardians. I can't remember where I read that, though. It might be my interpretation of the Blizzard timeline :-)
I do agree that fan ideas are often better than canon. I think the problem with fanon and canon diverging is that you end up having to do the sort of "creation and resolution" you mentioned later in your post. Then again, I think that any good RPG campaign will offer the players the chance to drive world changing events. For example, in a world based on the MMO that I played a few years back, the PCs may wish to help retake Gnomeregan. Letting them try to do that is going to hand the players the power (via their success or failure) of control of that iconic plot arc.

I guess that no matter how much, or how little, I would try to match canon (whether Warcraft RPG, WoW RPG or converted MMO) it will only last for a fleeting moment.
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:So, I would almost certainly not include the zeppelins and taxi services in a tabletop game (except as story-pushing, extraordinary things)
I would keep zeppelins, but not as a free travel system. I think they add something to the setting, but I would want PCs to have to earn passage on a zeppelin. I think that people who travel (and conduct commerce) via zeppelins could be based on sea-sailors, Eberron's air-ships or Spelljammer. If the zeppelins were a foundation of the goblin economy, perhaps they might not be willing to allow any random person (or the PCs) to use their ships. But if the PCs hired on with some goblin groups and helped out with some problems various goblins had, they could build up a reputation (in a similar way to the MMO) and eventually become important enough to be allowed to pay for passage.
That's more or less what I intended :-)
In that case I'll be looking out for a goblin netbook from you, so that I can steal your ideas! :P ;)
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:As for the towns, I think it was Night Druid who was putting out numbers. I would want to rebuild towns based on those numbers. (This is actually somewhere where I wonder if the earlier Warcraft games - and the novels - might have alternative descriptions of certain places.)
It would be an interesting net project to do something like that. I'd swipe the NPCs and their stories (where known) from the MMO for consistency, but the MMO doesn't even come close to the populations as described in the books. It does give a skeletal starting point, though.

I don't recall that the games had much for non-world/non-combat maps. The initial settlement of Orgrimmar is a downloadable adventure for Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, if memory serves. That adventure established Rexxar and Misha and their status with the Horde. I think the valley that Orgrimmar is in is shaped quite similarly to the one in the MMO, but I haven't done a point-by-point comparison yet.)
I would swipe MMO, novel, computer game and any other characters as RPG NPCs. I think the way to deal with the size discrepancy is to use RPG logic, and treat non-RPG NPCs as the most well known NPCs. I'd do the same for other things like buildings. There could be some relatively unknown (generic) farms around the home of Donni Anthania, and outsiders visiting the area could mostly be travelling to meet the "Crazy Cat Lady".

I think I'm much more familiar with the Alliance areas than the Horde ones. But I would be just as interested at seeing the Warcraft 3 Orgrimmar as the MMO version.
Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:I'd probably allow my game to be informed by the MMO, but not dictated by it -- if I ran something in Azeroth :-) A good reminder, though :-)
Me too. I'd be inclined to use the time period from the WoW: RPG books, and use the MMO for additional information and inspiration.
To be honest, I'd probably either run something Draenei/Blood Elf/Outland/Naaru-based (because I think that opens up the most interesting experimental possibilities -- stories to draw on, barely sketched histories, and a mostly-abandoned storyline) or run the Warcraft 3 Scourge Invasion plus race for the Throne (maybe) and the Wrath of the Lich King stories. That would place it squarely in the MMO time, but I'd change anything that needed changing to work as a tabletop game.
Some of the pre-MMO canon does seem to be a bit more exciting. Perhaps the need to have two equal sides forces the MMO to sometimes favour "side balance" over plot.

I think that, if the PCs were interested in retaking Gnomeregan, I'd probably have the Deep Run Tram get extended out in that direction. If the PCs can help secure enough of Gromeregan to allow tunnellers to break in, that could allow a large invasion force to enter the city. A plot like that could be dragged out over several years. (The construction work could even be top secret.)
Bonetti wrote:[1] Thinking about it, I think the reason I've stayed away from running something in Azeroth is to avoid both the level of creation and resolution I'd need to make the world comfortable, and to avoid feeling the need to stay reasonably consistent with the MMO. There are a lot of large gaps to fill in, and I really don't have the time to do that :-)
There certainly is a lot of sandboxing to do. I wonder if it would be possible to run with the RPG world, but then use MMO and other content to fill out the areas that your players use. If your PCs never visit Stormwind, it doesnt matter if you don't have a RPG scale/RPG population street map.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Bonetti
Fire Giant
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:03 am
Gender: male
Location: Garden Grove, California

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Bonetti » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:56 pm

Big Mac wrote:Some of the pre-MMO canon does seem to be a bit more exciting. Perhaps the need to have two equal sides forces the MMO to sometimes favour "side balance" over plot.
MMO fun (and not just balance) over plot, hands-down. The incessant need for new loot pinatas has, for instance, turned Malygos into a raid boss. I do appreciate that (so far) they've mostly kept the bronze and red dragonflights as player allies, and as of Cataclysm green is as well. (Greens made up raid bosses in the original game.) It seems, though, that when they need new bosses some good guy "goes crazy" and becomes a bad guy as needed.
Big Mac wrote:I think that, if the PCs were interested in retaking Gnomeregan, I'd probably have the Deep Run Tram get extended out in that direction. If the PCs can help secure enough of Gromeregan to allow tunnellers to break in, that could allow a large invasion force to enter the city. A plot like that could be dragged out over several years. (The construction work could even be top secret.)
Interesting piece of trivia: the Deep Run Tram was originally intended to run from Darnassus to Ironforge. That's why it's east-west when you're inside (and goes underwater), but north-south as the crow flies (over land). I don't know what prompted the change, other than the combination of an inability to pass between Stormwind and Ironforge at low levels plus the decision to remove "all capital cities" from the starting flight paths (giving only one's own city).
Big Mac wrote:
Bonetti wrote:[1] Thinking about it, I think the reason I've stayed away from running something in Azeroth is to avoid both the level of creation and resolution I'd need to make the world comfortable, and to avoid feeling the need to stay reasonably consistent with the MMO. There are a lot of large gaps to fill in, and I really don't have the time to do that :-)
There certainly is a lot of sandboxing to do. I wonder if it would be possible to run with the RPG world, but then use MMO and other content to fill out the areas that your players use. If your PCs never visit Stormwind, it doesnt matter if you don't have a RPG scale/RPG population street map.
No reason not to. There's been a huge amount of creativity put into the MMO. Swiping freely would likely save huge headaches.

Hrm. That wandered pretty far off dragons... Oh, well :-)
Darokin expansion (maps, notes, merchant houses)
NaNoWriMo: Winner 2013-2016; Camp NaNoWriMo: 2014-2017
Image

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by Big Mac » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:38 pm

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I think that, if the PCs were interested in retaking Gnomeregan, I'd probably have the Deep Run Tram get extended out in that direction. If the PCs can help secure enough of Gromeregan to allow tunnellers to break in, that could allow a large invasion force to enter the city. A plot like that could be dragged out over several years. (The construction work could even be top secret.)
Interesting piece of trivia: the Deep Run Tram was originally intended to run from Darnassus to Ironforge. That's why it's east-west when you're inside (and goes underwater), but north-south as the crow flies (over land). I don't know what prompted the change, other than the combination of an inability to pass between Stormwind and Ironforge at low levels plus the decision to remove "all capital cities" from the starting flight paths (giving only one's own city).
That is very interesting. Meanwhile, I'm still wondering what body of water, I would need to place between Stormwind and Ironforge.
Bonetti wrote:Hrm. That wandered pretty far off dragons... Oh, well :-)
<whistles innocently />
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
dfryer36
White Dragon
Posts: 2407
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cedar City, Utah

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by dfryer36 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:29 pm

Ah what the heck. It was interesting material.
David Fryer
I am a cute and cuddly winged harbinger of DEATH!

Do you have what it takes to be a hero?

User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
Posts: 6075
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
Gender: male

Re: 4E Dragons of Warcraft

Post by night_druid » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:37 pm

Bonetti wrote:Interesting piece of trivia: the Deep Run Tram was originally intended to run from Darnassus to Ironforge. That's why it's east-west when you're inside (and goes underwater), but north-south as the crow flies (over land). I don't know what prompted the change, other than the combination of an inability to pass between Stormwind and Ironforge at low levels plus the decision to remove "all capital cities" from the starting flight paths (giving only one's own city).
Interesting. Of course, pre-cataclysm, it left the night elves (and later the darnari) stranded in Kalamdor until level 30 or so, while all of the horde cities could be reached much earlier (level 15 or so, less if you can avoid mobs in the Barrens).
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green

Post Reply

Return to “World of Warcraft”