How Big a Hero? - Suspension of Disbelief

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How Big a Hero? - Suspension of Disbelief

Postby Ivellius » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:18 am

I'm not sure how on topic this is going to be for the RPG, but I'll try to make it work.

I recently added the 7 free days to my WoW account (came up when Firelands was released) and decided to create a Forsaken Rogue (having never played Forsaken, even pre-Cataclysm, or a Rogue). The initial starting zone is good--I like that they make a token effort at showing Forsaken rebels, and the leper gnome was interesting (did they have them around before the Shattering?). But Silverpine Forest and a quest chain in the Hillsbrad Foothills bothered me when I finished and not just because I'm pro-Alliance and pro-Good and the Forsaken are neither of those things. Not to mention Sylvanas' hypocrisy when it comes to the, you know, living inhabitants/former inhabitants of Lordaeron. No, what I decided really troubled me was the idea that a low-level character was all but single-handedly winning an entire war. I felt more...influential, I guess would be the word there than I ever did running through Northrend as a level 70-something. And it didn't feel as much fun when I finished, I guess because it seemed silly to me that a level 10- or 20-something Rogue is doing that much damage to a major faction. If one Rogue can wipe out an entire Stormpike offensive mostly on his own...well, I guess the Alliance deserves to lose Alterac Valley.

Maybe to bring this more to an RPG thing, what do you think the role of PCs should be within a campaign world? What constitutes acceptably heroic at a particular level? At what point do you feel that they become super-powerful and should be able to have such a large impact on the setting? Me, I just feel like I've effected way too much as that rogue. (Yes, that is the correct word in the previous sentence.)
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Re: How Big a Hero? - Suspension of Disbelief

Postby Bonetti » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:53 pm

I haven't played through any of the replacement starting zones yet (except the updated Durotar), so...

Originally, leper gnomes were the gnomes tainted by the toxic waste of the old gnomish capital Gnomeregan (the reason the gnomes fled to Ironforge). I understand that they're still around, but the story has changed a little (and new gnomes start by helping reclaim Gnomeregan). Leper gnomes plus troggs made up most of the bad guys in the Gnomeregan instance.

I have liked that they've tied zone changes to players more and more as the new questlines have been unveiled. They've also been slowly addressing the original content issue of stasis, where even after grinding factions to exalted (or completing massive quest chains) the players are still greeted as nonentities. Late BC content and Wrath content has people calling out based on reputation, e.g. the guards in Warsong Hold acknowledging higher reputations with the equivalent of a /say emote.

As for power levels in the pen & paper games, it depends. If the world is intended to host multiple campaigns, then I would work in fewer large-scale effects. After all, there would be later campaign arcs, and re-working after nations are destroyed is tough. However, if it amounts to a a one-off use of the world (say, something akin to running LOTR as a game), I'm much more comfortable with the PCs wrecking everything.

The difficulty for the MMO is trying to find the balance between reusable/shared content and the feeling of a solo CRPG (Ultima, Elder Scrolls) which is built around a story with a beginning and end. I think that a tabletop game would have similar tradeoffs, but played out a lot more slowly.

That being said, in the past I've always made an effort to hold on to changes made by the players, from defeating a local group of bandits to making friends with the mayor. I've been hesitant to move it to a more national scope simply to avoid the work of redoing large chunks of the world :-)

I guess it all comes down to the scope of the campaign.
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Re: How Big a Hero? - Suspension of Disbelief

Postby Ivellius » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:34 pm

I know the leper gnomes existed, I was just unclear as to whether a group were working with the Forsaken. Checking the wiki reveals that one was, though people weren't sure whether he should've been considered an undead gnome or just a leper gnome. With one in Northrend and one in Tirisfal now, I guess at least a handful of leper gnomes have decided to join the Horde.

And yeah, it will depend on the scope of the campaign, but I guess I'm wondering at what points you'd scale it. A 20th-level WoW character equates in the tabletop to between levels 7ish to 4 (if you think a 60th-level MMO character is the d20's endpoint or if you'd just "scale" it based on Cataclysm's level cap). I hope that sentence is clear enough. Now, to me, even a 7th-level character wouldn't be an integral part of winning the war in Silverpine. They'd be useful enough, sure, but on the level of "elite footsoldier," not "powerful commander." The book stats support this pretty well--the basic RTS units converted have at least 3 levels and frequently a few more. The WCIII heroes are all in the low teens.

For the kind of quests you do in Silverpine, I'd think near-epic characters. At least you never face off directly with Ivar Bloodfang and Darius Crowley.
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Re: How Big a Hero? - Suspension of Disbelief

Postby Big Mac » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:38 am

Ivellius wrote:Maybe to bring this more to an RPG thing, what do you think the role of PCs should be within a campaign world? What constitutes acceptably heroic at a particular level? At what point do you feel that they become super-powerful and should be able to have such a large impact on the setting? Me, I just feel like I've effected way too much as that rogue. (Yes, that is the correct word in the previous sentence.)


Great topic.

I think that one thing that interests me about World of Warcraft is the actual concept of "warcraft". It isn't a word I see defined on Wowpedia, but the "craft of war" seems to be something that is a much stronger theme in this campaign setting than other settings I know of.

Dragonlance has a war, but it is a war that sneaks up on one faction. Forgotten Realms has dozens of factions. Greyhawk has had wars (and I'm still learning about it) but they don't seem to be the primary ethos of the setting. I really do feel that Azeroth is a world where war is a central theme and everyone is either allied with the Alliance or the Horde or looking for some angle to get something out of one or other of the factions.

I don't think that the PCs should be railroaded into joining either of these factions (although their race should make the other faction hostile), but I think that both of the factions are actively trying to recruit anyone they can (as are lesser groups within the Alliance and the Horde).

I can't say if I think that what happened to your forsaken rogue was over the top, but I do remember the first MMO game I played. It wasn't anything so powerful, but my human paladin PC was immediately asked by a temple guard to help clear out critters that were causing trouble in the area. It was a trivial thing really, but there is a video floating about from a woman who did a lecture about World of Warcraft giving people "world changing skills" and that was pretty much how it felt.

I feel that the World of Warcraft MMO has an "epic" feel from day one. There is a feeling that your PC is destined to do better things. And I think that is something I would like to see carried over to the RPG.

I'm not sure about the exact implementation of how your PC changed things in the Alterac Valley, but if you had two evenly matched factions that were at an impasse, it is possible that a hero, or better for a tabletop game, a small band of heroes could sneak past the enemy lines and deal a blow that weakens that faction enough for the faction they are supporting to push forward and win the battle. Bonetti mentioned Lord of the Rings and in that story, a hobbit and his friends are insignificant enough to have been ignored by all sides and yet significant enough to be able to sneak around and get things done. I think that LotR does it a lot better than the MMO, probably because there is only a single story arc and the writer controls all the characters, but I think that sort of "very quickly epic" feel is pretty close to what the MMO gives you.

I don't think the game is entirely obsessed with the craft of war, as there are a lot of non-war quests. Some of these quests are just about helping out local people. Others are to do with building up skills (like fishing or mining). I would like to find a way (a way that is less boring than tabletop grinding) to retain those elements (as a total focus on the faction rivalry would be only part of the setting that I see).

I don't think these elements would be so relevant in other campaign settings, but they seem to be part of the central theme improving your character that I feel in the MMO. I think you can be a hero for taking down a local bandit lord. But I also think you can be a hero (in a lesser way) for finding herbs, ore, gems and other supplies that the local communities need. And you can certainly be a hero to that kid that lost her necklace in the lake.

The big focus in the MMO is on the reputation you get with the big factions, but I think that in a tabletop game you could possibly build up a good relationship with specific traders and those traders could then help move the plot forwards. I think that if those other elements were retained (in a tabletop game) it would take a bit of the focus off of the fact that a PC helped to defeat a fairly significant faction.

(I also think that in a tabletop game, the NPC factions could be a bit more dynamic. If you kill the leader of the Defias Brotherhood, a person further down the organisation can take over. Or the Brotherhood can split into two or three smaller factions. Or the Brotherhood could retreat from the area and try to regroup somewhere else.)

Bonetti wrote:I haven't played through any of the replacement starting zones yet (except the updated Durotar), so...

Originally, leper gnomes were the gnomes tainted by the toxic waste of the old gnomish capital Gnomeregan (the reason the gnomes fled to Ironforge). I understand that they're still around, but the story has changed a little (and new gnomes start by helping reclaim Gnomeregan). Leper gnomes plus troggs made up most of the bad guys in the Gnomeregan instance.


I think that the liberation of Gnomeregan is one of those things that a large number of people are trying to make happen. With PC gnomes in the MMO being expected to be loyal to the High Tinker, I think it is natural for the plotline of the MMO to expect all gnomes to attempt to help recapture the city.

What is probably unrealistic about the MMO vs a tabletop game, is that the MMO expresses the story through the eyes of a single viewpoint character (your PC gnome) and if you look at what is happening en masse, there are a large number of players that all feel their gnome PC helped liberate Gnomeregen.

I think that perhaps the compromise that might work for a tabletop game would be for a large number of gnomes to be seen to be wanting to work for this to happen but for the PCs (if and when they have a gnome PC or NPC with them) to be "at the right place in the right time". Something like sneaking along a sewage pipe and stealing the keys to a secret door that allows an NPC force to bypass the main defences could be something that allows low level PCs to help high level NPCs tip the balance.

Bonetti wrote:I have liked that they've tied zone changes to players more and more as the new questlines have been unveiled. They've also been slowly addressing the original content issue of stasis, where even after grinding factions to exalted (or completing massive quest chains) the players are still greeted as nonentities. Late BC content and Wrath content has people calling out based on reputation, e.g. the guards in Warsong Hold acknowledging higher reputations with the equivalent of a /say emote.


That sounds like a good thing. You could easily do that in a tabletop game. If you actually knocked up names (and a one line description) for the guards, you could actually have the PCs get to know some of the guards and build up a personal relationship with them. This could be alongside their reputation and the two could combine to decide on how the NPC should react to the PC (and their friends). On the personal level you could have a guard that knows that a PC has won a local fishing competition and they may have had a wager on the outcome of that competition with one or more of the other guards. An individual guard could be friendly towards a PC, but politely refuse to allow them in (as they don't have a valid reason to enter the building). Or they could be annoyed about something the PC did a few years back, but gruffly allow them in (as they know that the PC has helped to defend their force many times).

Bonetti wrote:As for power levels in the pen & paper games, it depends. If the world is intended to host multiple campaigns, then I would work in fewer large-scale effects. After all, there would be later campaign arcs, and re-working after nations are destroyed is tough. However, if it amounts to a a one-off use of the world (say, something akin to running LOTR as a game), I'm much more comfortable with the PCs wrecking everything.


We have spoken on other threads about the tabletop world needing to be larger than the MMO world. I wonder if the change in scale is a way to have (excuse the pun) the best of both worlds.

I've not been anal enough to count the number of actual NPCs in factions like the Defias Brotherhood, but if you were to scale that organisation up, it would be possible to wipe out a local branch in an individual valley (and hand Stormwind guards greater control of that region). That could feel like as big a win as you get with the MMO, but with a better in-game reason for the faction not to vanish after you have the big win.

You could even have the PCs broker a peace deal between Vanessa VanCleef and the government of Stormwind and have some of the Brotherhood get granted land to farm. But then have Jac Northshire and/or some of the other secondary leaders distrust the peace deal and split the organisation to make a more militant Breakaway Brotherhood.

In other words, there are a number of ways that the PCs can have a big impact without actually having a total change on how an area "works". I am not sure exactly how to implement this (as I'm not sure the MMO actually tells the story in that sort of way) but I think this would allow the PCs to have long term interaction with some of the Warcraft factions, have big wins, gain a reputation (from both the "government factions" and the local factions that may or may not be operating legally) and be able to feel that they have done epic things at lower levels.

(And if they really really really want to do something like totally destroy the Defias Brotherhood the PCs could attack the groups in individual valleys, capture or kill as many local leaders as possible, drive the Brotherhood out of one valley after another and help the Stormwind guards to build additional guardposts that can stop the Brotherhood from regaining territory. Something like that would reshape the Stormwind area.)

Bonetti wrote:The difficulty for the MMO is trying to find the balance between reusable/shared content and the feeling of a solo CRPG (Ultima, Elder Scrolls) which is built around a story with a beginning and end. I think that a tabletop game would have similar tradeoffs, but played out a lot more slowly.

That being said, in the past I've always made an effort to hold on to changes made by the players, from defeating a local group of bandits to making friends with the mayor. I've been hesitant to move it to a more national scope simply to avoid the work of redoing large chunks of the world :-)

I guess it all comes down to the scope of the campaign.


I like the idea of slow long term changes to the world. And I like the idea that the players can see that they have pushed the world in a certain direction. I don't think they need to "control" the world, but if there are other factions trying to do things and the players can see how they have slowed down the goals of other factions, while speeding up the goals of the factions they support, then I think that will help make the world feel real. And I think that if they can see the times when they have made a difference they will feel that the PCs they play are heroes.

Ivellius wrote:I know the leper gnomes existed, I was just unclear as to whether a group were working with the Forsaken. Checking the wiki reveals that one was, though people weren't sure whether he should've been considered an undead gnome or just a leper gnome. With one in Northrend and one in Tirisfal now, I guess at least a handful of leper gnomes have decided to join the Horde.


I suppose there are a number of ways you could go with that. There is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" angle. Then you have the angle of trying to pit the Horde against the Alliance, so that the Horde take out the Alliance gnomes and allow the leper gnomes to recapture Gnomeregan. And finally, you have the undead gnome thing.

Or you could have a number of things going on at the same time.

Ivellius wrote:And yeah, it will depend on the scope of the campaign, but I guess I'm wondering at what points you'd scale it. A 20th-level WoW character equates in the tabletop to between levels 7ish to 4 (if you think a 60th-level MMO character is the d20's endpoint or if you'd just "scale" it based on Cataclysm's level cap). I hope that sentence is clear enough. Now, to me, even a 7th-level character wouldn't be an integral part of winning the war in Silverpine. They'd be useful enough, sure, but on the level of "elite footsoldier," not "powerful commander." The book stats support this pretty well--the basic RTS units converted have at least 3 levels and frequently a few more. The WCIII heroes are all in the low teens.


Don't forget that 20th level is not the endpoint of 3rd Edition D&D. The Epic Handbook (which you can access for free as the Epic part of the SRD) allows for post 20th level advancement.

I know that a lot of D&D players I've met don't like to go anywhere near to 20th level (let alone beyond it) and some settings (like Dragonlance) seem to have a feel that expects NPCs to tail off below 20th level. That can make Epic level play seem a bit over the top for some settings. That makes some people feel that high level PCs should be retired when they get to a certain level.

But if there has ever been a D&D world that was specifically designed to not just support Epic-level play, but to demand Epic-level play, I'd say that World of Warcraft is that setting.

Ivellius wrote:For the kind of quests you do in Silverpine, I'd think near-epic characters. At least you never face off directly with Ivar Bloodfang and Darius Crowley.


Maybe if you progressed PCs to post-20th level, they could take on these characters. Perhaps they could progress to the point where the PCs could push forward the setting, permanently defeat factions they were opposed to and "win" the war that warcraft implies. (Or maybe they would be killed by equally high level NPCs from the Horde that can see what they are doing and who wish to "take them out".)

I think it all comes down to how far you want to take the heroic feel of the setting.
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Re: How Big a Hero? - Suspension of Disbelief

Postby Bonetti » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:10 pm

Big Mac wrote:I know that a lot of D&D players I've met don't like to go anywhere near to 20th level (let alone beyond it) and some settings (like Dragonlance) seem to have a feel that expects NPCs to tail off below 20th level. That can make Epic level play seem a bit over the top for some settings. That makes some people feel that high level PCs should be retired when they get to a certain level.

But if there has ever been a D&D world that was specifically designed to not just support Epic-level play, but to demand Epic-level play, I'd say that World of Warcraft is that setting.

Other than a couple one-shots, I've never had a game go long enough to get there (and everyone wants to start at lower levels, for some reason). That being said, I second this.

I think in Warcraft as an RPG, one is intended to do Azeroth-shattering stuff -- and if one runs long enough, one should be eventually at a level where one is interacting with Malfurion Stormrage and dealing with the corruption of the Emerald Dream, or fending off the Burning Legion as it once again attacks, or perhaps even permanently dealing with the Legion by battling Sargeras himself. As I think I put in one adventure path, since the mortal races are all corrupted by the Curse of Flesh, what happens if/when the Titans come back to check on their creation? They made Azeroth what it is (by shaping what existed), and their creation has been corrupted (the earthen and clockwork gnomes are all fleshy, not to mention one of their five primary guardians is corrupted beyond recovery, and their safeguards left behind keep being overcome (Uldaman, Ulduar, Uldum)).

Add in the material from WoW, and it's pretty over-the-top the whole way along. The hero helps out his faction leader all over the place, overcomes all sorts of local threats, kills off an Old God (C'thun, Ahn'Qiraj raid), keeps wrecking Illidan's plans in Outland (eventually taking him out), kills off a bunch of Arthas' minions in Northrend (and in the case of Grizzly Hills + Zul'Drak, has a very long story taking out Drakaru, one of Arthas' warlords), and even eventually takes out Arthas (replacing him, since an uncontrolled Scourge would be a real disaster). In the Cataclysm zones, one is interacting directly with the elemental lords (e.g. Therazane, Neptulon) and preventing the collapse of Azeroth (rebuilding the Earth Pillar).

Saving the elemental planes from corruption and destruction in any other D&D setting would probably be considered ridiculous. In Warcraft, it's just The Next Level :-)

Anyway, that was a very long and thought-provoking post, there's a lot of good stuff there to chew on. I just wanted to second this particular sentiment.
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Re: How Big a Hero? - Suspension of Disbelief

Postby Big Mac » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:59 am

Bonetti wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I know that a lot of D&D players I've met don't like to go anywhere near to 20th level (let alone beyond it) and some settings (like Dragonlance) seem to have a feel that expects NPCs to tail off below 20th level. That can make Epic level play seem a bit over the top for some settings. That makes some people feel that high level PCs should be retired when they get to a certain level.

But if there has ever been a D&D world that was specifically designed to not just support Epic-level play, but to demand Epic-level play, I'd say that World of Warcraft is that setting.

Other than a couple one-shots, I've never had a game go long enough to get there (and everyone wants to start at lower levels, for some reason). That being said, I second this.


Thanks. For what it is worth, I think that I find the low levels a good way to "get into a character" and would much rather take a PC from 1st level to 30th level than start at 8th level, go to 25th level and be bugged about how much more awesome it could have been if I'd "started at the beginning".

However, I know that GMs have a "big story line" that they want to push and that doesn't always involve going back to square one if the players get their PCs killed. I've got an idea about this. I might start another thread tommorow.

EDIT: Here is the new thread: WoW MMO as inspiration for "background" levelling.

Bonetti wrote:I think in Warcraft as an RPG, one is intended to do Azeroth-shattering stuff -- and if one runs long enough, one should be eventually at a level where one is interacting with Malfurion Stormrage and dealing with the corruption of the Emerald Dream, or fending off the Burning Legion as it once again attacks, or perhaps even permanently dealing with the Legion by battling Sargeras himself. As I think I put in one adventure path, since the mortal races are all corrupted by the Curse of Flesh, what happens if/when the Titans come back to check on their creation? They made Azeroth what it is (by shaping what existed), and their creation has been corrupted (the earthen and clockwork gnomes are all fleshy, not to mention one of their five primary guardians is corrupted beyond recovery, and their safeguards left behind keep being overcome (Uldaman, Ulduar, Uldum)).


These are some pretty epic themes. They are far above anything I ever did with the MMO. (I think I only got to 30th level.) But they certainly seem appropriate for the WoW:RPG.

I didn't ever play BECMI, but the large range of levels (and the fact that you go to immortal power level) pretty much puts you in a position where you can attempt to make your PC as powerful as a god*. I feel that 3e's Epic Level Handbook was an attempt to bring the Masters and Immortals concepts (if not the mechanics) into a system that under 2e rules would top out at 20th level. It is not perfect (if it was you wouldn't be playing 4e ;) ) but it is almost as if someone knew that Blizzard would be licensing Warcraft as an official D&D campaign setting and built the rules that Warcraft needed.

* = Yes I do know Mystara has no gods, before anyone slaps me with a fish. ;)

In 4e, they have pretty much brought out new PHBs and other books to tie in with specific settings. I think that WoW:RPG would be the one that would sell GMs on the idea of people having 30th, 40th and 50th level D&D PCs.

Bonetti wrote:Add in the material from WoW, and it's pretty over-the-top the whole way along. The hero helps out his faction leader all over the place, overcomes all sorts of local threats, kills off an Old God (C'thun, Ahn'Qiraj raid), keeps wrecking Illidan's plans in Outland (eventually taking him out), kills off a bunch of Arthas' minions in Northrend (and in the case of Grizzly Hills + Zul'Drak, has a very long story taking out Drakaru, one of Arthas' warlords), and even eventually takes out Arthas (replacing him, since an uncontrolled Scourge would be a real disaster). In the Cataclysm zones, one is interacting directly with the elemental lords (e.g. Therazane, Neptulon) and preventing the collapse of Azeroth (rebuilding the Earth Pillar).

Saving the elemental planes from corruption and destruction in any other D&D setting would probably be considered ridiculous. In Warcraft, it's just The Next Level :-)


Forgotten Realms has something called the Chosen of Mystara (and a GM can make Chosen of other deities). I don't think that the GM is supposed to encourage every player to play a Chosen, but in Warcraft (or specifically the World of Warcraft MMO) I do feel like players are powered up to Chosen-level. That is why I saw Ivellius' thread and thought that the MMO has an epic feel pretty much from day one. It isn't so much the power level (and you can certainly get killed fairly easily). It is more of a matter of you being a big fish in a tiny pond at first level and then moving to more advanced foes only when you are no smaller than a medium-sized fish in the larger pond.

I think what is missing in the MMO - what the GM could do (and maybe do well) in the RPG - is that while the PCs can join in with lots of factions, groups and gain reputation, they can't create their own faction.

There are guilds in the MMO, but they really don't have an impact in big plot (because Blizzard can't run the entire world around a small number of players). But in a RPG, the PCs are on a "server" of their own and regardless of any plotlines that anyone here or on the dedicated WoW:RPG forums comes up with, the GM can always overule the suggested outcomes if the PCs come up with ideas that push the plot in a different direction.

If the PCs decide they want to cure leper gnomes, find a way to bring the forsaken back to life or (especially if they are undead) find a way to free undead from the scouge and allow them to join the forsaken they can try to do this. In a way, they would be creating their own Adventure Path, with the GM being there to fill in the individual steps.

Bonetti wrote:Anyway, that was a very long and thought-provoking post, there's a lot of good stuff there to chew on. I just wanted to second this particular sentiment.


Thanks again. From a MMO expert like you, that means something. :)

Maybe if I get a chance to look through the Epic parts of the SRD and compare them to the high level abilities that MMO PCs get, I'll have an idea in my head of how I could use the 3e Epic system to be the logical direction of the "big hero" concept (rather than try to limit WoW:RPG down to 20 levels).
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