[Dark Dungeons] - OGLBECMI?

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Ashtagon » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:05 pm

Prestige classes and demi-human options:

Dwarf: Options should include fighter and fighter-cleric.

Elf: Options should include fighter and fighter-wizard.

Halfling: Options should include fighter and fighter-thief.

Prestige classes: A character who reaches 10th level can enter one of the following prestige classes, should he have the appropriate prerequisite base class:

Fighter - paladin, knight, or avenger. GazF added the ranger iirc.

Thief - nothing obvious from BECMI. Perhaps add bard as an option?

Cleric - Druid is straight from BECMI, although I'd rather have that as a base class.

Wizard - Glantrian magic secrets are the most obvious inspiration here.

Dwarf fighter or fighter-cleric - I got nothing. Perhaps something inspired by rune magic, or a take on the paladin/knight concepts?

Elf fighter - I got nothing. Depending on how it is written, a bard prestige class could work for elves equally as for thieves.

Elf fighter-wizard - treekeeper seems like an obvious choice here.

Hin fighter or fighter-thief - hin master would work for either base class here. Given Mystaran hin culture, bard would be another reasonable option is written that way.
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by rabindranath72 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:14 pm

The Thug/Assassin might be a good PrC for thieves. I designed one based on the ideas in the Master Set, but never tried it.
Not sure there is a Ranger PrC. I seem to recall something in the Voyage of Princess Ark column. Anyway, I also designed a Ranger as a PrC for Fighters, and it works quite well.

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:27 pm

Ashtagon wrote:Dwarf: Options should include fighter and fighter-cleric.
I'd also include GGG's "Thorn",the dwarven fighter-thief
Elf: Options should include fighter and fighter-wizard.
I would also include either fighter-cleric or cleric-wizard, probably not both...
Prestige classes: A character who reaches 10th level can enter one of the following prestige classes, should he have the appropriate prerequisite base class:

Fighter - paladin, knight, or avenger. GazF added the ranger iirc.
There is also a ranger class on the Vaults
Thief - nothing obvious from BECMI. Perhaps add bard as an option?
Bard sounds reasonable--actually kinda makes it mimic the AD&D bard in a much simpler way. Assassin also has potential.
Also, as part of the "non-Basic" form, I would introduce variable theif skills from here.
Cleric - Druid is straight from BECMI, although I'd rather have that as a base class.
agreed... perhaps introduce it as a prestige with a GM's option of making it a base class? Same for Paladin?
Dwarf fighter or fighter-cleric - I got nothing. Perhaps something inspired by rune magic, or a take on the paladin/knight concepts?

Elf fighter - I got nothing. Depending on how it is written, a bard prestige class could work for elves equally as for thieves.

Elf fighter-wizard - treekeeper seems like an obvious choice here.

Hin fighter or fighter-thief - hin master would work for either base class here. Given Mystaran hin culture, bard would be another reasonable option is written that way.
What I had in mind is that demihumans could multiclass from the start and specialize after name level, while humans would "prestige" in reverse... the problem with that limitation is relic-keepers & masters.

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by cab » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:11 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote: Retain "classic" save categories (RC option, to allow for more versatility), but usse d20 mechanic
30 levels (maybe only 20 for BM&M, dunno)
...
10th is "name level"...
May I suggest 32 levels, name level being 8?

The thing with 36 is its 4x name level (9 being name level in classic).

So 32 as top level with 8 being name rank makes some intuitive sense. And of all of the levels of play in classic that can start to drag, its 32-36.

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:14 pm

cab wrote:May I suggest 32 levels, name level being 8?

The thing with 36 is its 4x name level (9 being name level in classic).

So 32 as top level with 8 being name rank makes some intuitive sense. And of all of the levels of play in classic that can start to drag, its 32-36.
I envisioned 20/30 levels as it is the d20 mechanic's status quo--and many of the variables increase in multiples of 5 (BAB, for example). If that were not the case I'd prefer to retain 36 levels...

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by cab » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:39 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:
cab wrote:May I suggest 32 levels, name level being 8?

The thing with 36 is its 4x name level (9 being name level in classic).

So 32 as top level with 8 being name rank makes some intuitive sense. And of all of the levels of play in classic that can start to drag, its 32-36.
I envisioned 20/30 levels as it is the d20 mechanic's status quo--and many of the variables increase in multiples of 5 (BAB, for example). If that were not the case I'd prefer to retain 36 levels...

Roger
Fair enough. I've always fancied changing it to 32 myself, largely because its such a good number. 36 isn't bad (divides into18's hence 9's, 3's and 6's, and of course 12's), but as any darts player knows 32 is double 16, and when you miss the next double thick and hit an 8 you can keep dividing all the way down to double 1...

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:41 pm

cab wrote:Fair enough. I've always fancied changing it to 32 myself, largely because its such a good number. 36 isn't bad (divides into18's hence 9's, 3's and 6's, and of course 12's), but as any darts player knows 32 is double 16, and when you miss the next double thick and hit an 8 you can keep dividing all the way down to double 1...
I'm confused! Did you actually SAY anything? Lol
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by cab » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:56 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:
cab wrote:Fair enough. I've always fancied changing it to 32 myself, largely because its such a good number. 36 isn't bad (divides into18's hence 9's, 3's and 6's, and of course 12's), but as any darts player knows 32 is double 16, and when you miss the next double thick and hit an 8 you can keep dividing all the way down to double 1...
I'm confused! Did you actually SAY anything? Lol
Ahh, yes... Sorry...

If you're as bad at darts as I am you'll prefer the double 16 to finish on to the double 18.

If you miss the double 18 (being 36) and hit the single bed, you now need double 9 (to score 18), but if you then hit the 9 you need 9 points to finish, so you need to use at least 2 more darts (say, aim for the 1, then you need 8, which is double 4).

If you miss double 16 (being 32), then you can aim for double 8, followed by 4, 2 and then 1. Its the perfect double to leave yourself.

So... In a D&D characters career in classic, a quarter of the way through you stop progressing needing an exponentially increasing number of XP, thats name level, Level 9, a quarter of 36. Well, if I were choosing a top level to best subdivide a characters career, I think I'd go for 32, simply because it divides better. Half 32 is 16, half 16 is 8 (so name level at level 8).

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by dulsi » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:58 pm

On Mazes & Monsters as a name, it isn't a registered trademark. That doesn't means someone isn't using the name. A quick search found a movie based after a book. Mazes and Monsters is a rpg in the movie/book since they can't use the D&D name. I'd be hesitant to use the name due to that and M&M acronym is already associated with Mutants and Masterminds.
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:01 pm

I think I'm starting to understand. Not being a darts player, would I be correct in assuming that your allusion is talking about the power curve? Each equally-divided tier would have a steep curve... so the full level range would look like stairs instead of a single curve...

If I'm way off, I blame lack of sleep...

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:06 pm

dulsi wrote:On Mazes & Monsters as a name, it isn't a registered trademark. That doesn't means someone isn't using the name. A quick search found a movie based after a book. Mazes and Monsters is a rpg in the movie/book since they can't use the D&D name. I'd be hesitant to use the name due to that and M&M acronym is already associated with Mutants and Masterminds.
I think the whole point of that suggested name was in parody of the book/film (and let's face it, it badly needs parody)...

I have to say, it's better than my own idea - which was "Cyclops"; which would result in things associated with it being referred to as "Cyclopean" - a joking reference to the Cyclopedia that it would be based on.
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Ashtagon » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:10 pm

Can we call it Dark Dungeons :lol:
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:11 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote:I have to say, it's better than my own idea - which was "Cyclops"; which would result in things associated with it being referred to as "Cyclopean" - a joking reference to the Cyclopedia that it would be based on.
Do you have a sample logo mock-up? Who knows, it might grow on us. Considering the Mutants & Masterminds use of "M&M", yours might very well be a viable option. The more the merrier!

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:12 pm

Ashtagon wrote:Can we call it Dark Dungeons :lol:
OOH! Me likey! How come I didn't think of that?!?

Let's see if I can come up with a quick logo...

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:19 pm

Ashtagon wrote:Can we call it Dark Dungeons :lol:
Only if we make the "iconic characters" used in the character generation and combat examples Elfstar and Black Leaf.
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:28 pm

Here we go!
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:29 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote:Only if we make the "iconic characters" used in the character generation and combat examples Elfstar and Black Leaf.
Oh, ABSOLUTELY! I love it!

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by rabindranath72 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:32 pm

We also need an idiotic Dungeon Master :mrgreen:

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by cab » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:32 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:I think I'm starting to understand. Not being a darts player, would I be correct in assuming that your allusion is talking about the power curve? Each equally-divided tier would have a steep curve... so the full level range would look like stairs instead of a single curve...
I'm coming at this from two angles.

Firstly, I think 36 levels is too many, simply because levels 30-36 can drag a bit.

Secondly, when reducing the number of levels I'd like to pick something that is as mathematically appealing as 36; hence 36, which is actually more appealing.

To keep 'name level at quarter of your career' it has to be something divisible by 4; that means 28 or 32. 7 seems too low for name level to me, and 32 kind of gives us a new way of looking at things too.

So, basic levels can remain 1-3... Or instead,and better I think, one might go for 1-4 (takes you half way to name level; intuitively that makes sense to me). Expert levels then become 5-14 (10 levels stradling name rank), Companion 15-23 (9 levels), Masters 24-32 (9 levels). You can divide adventures up into basic (up to half of name rank), expert (gaining your 'name' and exploring wilderness), companion (becoming nationally and internationally important) and masters (transcending planar boundaries in search of worthy foes/wrongs to right/your own ultimate goals). It remains mathematically akin to BECMI, while reducing the number of levels.

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:37 pm

cab wrote:I'm coming at this from two angles.

Firstly, I think 36 levels is too many, simply because levels 30-36 can drag a bit.

Secondly, when reducing the number of levels I'd like to pick something that is as mathematically appealing as 36; hence 36, which is actually more appealing.

To keep 'name level at quarter of your career' it has to be something divisible by 4; that means 28 or 32. 7 seems too low for name level to me, and 32 kind of gives us a new way of looking at things too.

So, basic levels can remain 1-3... Or instead,and better I think, one might go for 1-4 (takes you half way to name level; intuitively that makes sense to me). Expert levels then become 5-14 (10 levels stradling name rank), Companion 15-23 (9 levels), Masters 24-32 (9 levels). You can divide adventures up into basic (up to half of name rank), expert (gaining your 'name' and exploring wilderness), companion (becoming nationally and internationally important) and masters (transcending planar boundaries in search of worthy foes/wrongs to right/your own ultimate goals). It remains mathematically akin to BECMI, while reducing the number of levels.
I can agree with that concept. I still think that it would hinge on finding a suitable progression of numerical statistics such as spell loads, BAB, and saves.

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:44 pm

cab wrote:
Gawain_VIII wrote:Firstly, I think 36 levels is too many, simply because levels 30-36 can drag a bit.
Not if you assume that immortal level play is core.

If you have a party that are getting ready to become immortals, the trials and tasks are likely to start happening when they're about level 31 or so. Once you hit that point, gaining levels is no longer the focus of ambition, but becoming immortal is - so levels fade somewhat into the background anyway.

Besides, when the magic user is hitting level 31 and thinking about immortality the thief or cleric in the same party is going to be a higher level (assuming they have similar experience totals). If you stopped the levels for the thieves and clerics at 32, then they'd be effectively reduced further for the magic users, since they will always be lower level than the more rapidly advancing party members - who are probably the only ones to hit the level cap.
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:45 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:I can agree with that concept. I still think that it would hinge on finding a suitable progression of numerical statistics such as spell loads, BAB, and saves.

Roger
I'm still a fan of changing as little as possible, and having 36 levels because that's how it's always been done; and keeping race=class because that's a defining feature of what's being emulated.
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:55 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote:I'm still a fan of changing as little as possible, and having 36 levels because that's how it's always been done; and keeping race=class because that's a defining feature of what's being emulated.
I would agree with you on this one as well... The suggestions offered above were mostly just me thinking with my fingers. The correct way to emmulate BECMI/RC (while still providing the variety that newer game systems thrive on) would be to invent/steal/borrow new race-classes that mimic various racial multiclass options... like the Thorn (Dwarven thief), linked above.

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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:28 am

You know what?

I've been doing some more organising, and even started to write up some character generation text. I think I'm actually going to give this a serious go...

Using the name "Dark Dungeons" (which doesn't appear to be already trademarked, according to the link Gawain posted).

I'm going to create a thread for it now, for my initial design thoughts and to get feedback.
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Re: OGLBECMI?

Post by Ashtagon » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:36 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:Here we go!
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Roger
I think the word Dark needs to be offset slightly, so that the D in Dark is slightly left of the D in Dungeons.

I mean, if we are trying to stay as faithful as possible to the original source materials...
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