Creature Crucibles

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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby Cthulhudrew » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:04 am

BillionSix wrote:In PC2, it says that upon reaching 8th level (or the maximum HD level) the PC's fight and use saving throws based on either their HD or their character level, whichever is more advantageous.


Yeah, I think that's why they revisited the idea in PC3 and PC4, since it didn't seem to really be all that balanced. PC2 was a change from PC1, which only had monster PCs attack at their current HD, and thus they plateaued at a certain point (some much earlier than others, and some would be much more well off at early levels due to high HD). It seems to be one of the mechanics of the PC Race notion that was very much in flux, whereas most of the other areas (xp progression and calculation, HD and maximum HD) remained more or less stable across the board.

In absence of another sort of mechanic (that I don't have any ideas for myself), I'd probably go with the more recent/later developed idea of progression as monster HD until no HD gained any longer, then +1 every 2 levels. It still isn't necessarily all that balanced (obviously, higher HD monsters will benefit the most, though they also suffer the worst xp costs), but it at least provides some measure of incremental advancement, whereas the others are either a little too much, or else none at all.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby BillionSix » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:13 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Yeah, I think that's why they revisited the idea in PC3 and PC4, since it didn't seem to really be all that balanced. PC2 was a change from PC1, which only had monster PCs attack at their current HD, and thus they plateaued at a certain point (some much earlier than others, and some would be much more well off at early levels due to high HD). It seems to be one of the mechanics of the PC Race notion that was very much in flux, whereas most of the other areas (xp progression and calculation, HD and maximum HD) remained more or less stable across the board.

In absence of another sort of mechanic (that I don't have any ideas for myself), I'd probably go with the more recent/later developed idea of progression as monster HD until no HD gained any longer, then +1 every 2 levels. It still isn't necessarily all that balanced (obviously, higher HD monsters will benefit the most, though they also suffer the worst xp costs), but it at least provides some measure of incremental advancement, whereas the others are either a little too much, or else none at all.


Are you sure it was something as together as a slowly developing idea?

It strikes me as just five supplements written by five separate people, each of whom had their own ideas on how to do it. The Orcs of Thar was written first, so I could see the editors telling later writers, "Do it similar to this." and leaving them to fill in the gaps, or not, on their own.
Where is that +1 every 2 levels stated? I didn't see it.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby Cthulhudrew » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:29 am

BillionSix wrote:Are you sure it was something as together as a slowly developing idea?

It strikes me as just five supplements written by five separate people, each of whom had their own ideas on how to do it. The Orcs of Thar was written first, so I could see the editors telling later writers, "Do it similar to this." and leaving them to fill in the gaps, or not, on their own.


Just an assumption I made, admittedly. I assume that there was some degree of editorial oversight on the matter, considering Bruce Heard was the product manager and also the guy who originally developed the idea of Monster PCs in Gaz10. I know that there was a review of a couple of the CC products in an issue or two of Dragon Magazine, where the article author pointed out some weirdness about the mechanics; since Dragon was a TSR publication, I assume (again, just IMO) that maybe subsequent authors on the CC products were thus aware of the mechanics issues. The last two CCs were essentially similar in their treatment of the mechanics, so even if it were just one person (say, Bambra on PC3) who came up with the numbers, the later author (Dupuis) seemed to follow suit.

Where is that +1 every 2 levels stated? I didn't see it.


Check Combat on p.18 of PC3, or p.4 of PC4.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby BillionSix » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:10 am

Found it. Thanks. It's not a bad plan.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby BillionSix » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:23 pm

Quick question: When a monster becomes a shaman, he gains spells slots as per a cleric, meaning a 1st level Shaman has +2 hit points, but no spells yet. Does he also gain the ability to turn undead?
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby Cthulhudrew » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:24 pm

Shamans aren't supposed to get the ability to turn undead. PC3 does give some optional rules for allowing them to be trained to do it; I don't recall if any of the other CCs (or Gaz10) provided similar sorts of rules. Ultimately, it's kind of up to you, but shamans are presumed to be somewhat weaker than clerics, so I think that's one of the reasons they aren't given that ability.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby BillionSix » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:01 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:Shamans aren't supposed to get the ability to turn undead. PC3 does give some optional rules for allowing them to be trained to do it; I don't recall if any of the other CCs (or Gaz10) provided similar sorts of rules. Ultimately, it's kind of up to you, but shamans are presumed to be somewhat weaker than clerics, so I think that's one of the reasons they aren't given that ability.


I suspected as much. I knew they already got a more limited spell list.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby hardundead » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:55 am

Big fan of the PC series, really - I own 3 of them and have used them. But they sorta screwed the pooch with leveling odd PC's. Have a looksie at the Hollow World players guide or some of the GAZ's. Monster PC's in those use a different (and cleaner/easier) logic in their level design. I think the PC series was trying to ape the Cavalier design in UA, which was a mistake IMO.

I'd really tread carefully when trying to use the PC Series design mechanics, as even when they were new, it was commonly complained that they only worked if all PC's were using them, but "mixed" parties caused a lot of headaches. With that said, a crafty DM could remedy with a command decision or three and a house rule. But since you'd be starting from scratch, why not take "inspiration" from the model that worked better.

Just sayin'.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby BillionSix » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:28 am

hardundead wrote:Big fan of the PC series, really - I own 3 of them and have used them. But they sorta screwed the pooch with leveling odd PC's. Have a looksie at the Hollow World players guide or some of the GAZ's. Monster PC's in those use a different (and cleaner/easier) logic in their level design. I think the PC series was trying to ape the Cavalier design in UA, which was a mistake IMO.

I'd really tread carefully when trying to use the PC Series design mechanics, as even when they were new, it was commonly complained that they only worked if all PC's were using them, but "mixed" parties caused a lot of headaches. With that said, a crafty DM could remedy with a command decision or three and a house rule. But since you'd be starting from scratch, why not take "inspiration" from the model that worked better.

Just sayin'.


Just so I know where to look, where can i find the other races in the Gazetteers and Hollow World? And what races are represented?
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby hardundead » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:22 pm

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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby BillionSix » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:22 am

Thread necro:

I still kinda want to do this.
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby drrockso20 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:44 am

BillionSix wrote:Thread necro:

I still kinda want to do this.

me as well though it would be a lot of work :P
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby BillionSix » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:08 pm

Yeah, it's been a while since I even thought about this. I still love the idea. The stupid thing that stopped me is that I don't know how to format the experience point charts to post here. :p
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby Havard » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:13 pm

BillionSix wrote:Yeah, it's been a while since I even thought about this. I still love the idea. The stupid thing that stopped me is that I don't know how to format the experience point charts to post here. :p




Quote this message and see how its done. :)

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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby Hugin » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:09 pm

Havard wrote:

Quote this message and see how its done. :)

-Havard

You know, there are times when I wish this forum allowed me to give a thumbs up to a post. :D
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Re: Creature Crucibles

Postby LimeOdyssey » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:33 am

If "monsters" are treated like demihumans, and not human adventurers, I think 99% of the difficulties go away. Whether the idea to start by hacking an existing demihuman package like the dwarf or halfling is used, or jumping in the deep end, if the number of hit dice given in a monster entry is the "name level" for that creature and assuming it has more than one hit die, would it be the case that if eg it's a 8 HD creature it has to level up from level 1 to level 8 to have all the listed powers and attacks etc. that it is given in its monster entry?

Sphinxes have 12 hit dice, and are either a 12th level cleric or a 12th level magic-user. Their saves are effectively as at 12th level. I am going to try and simply write it out as a demihuman class, counting backward to 1, and see if it is possible to first of all map a progression for it that makes sense. I will worry about XP later. Although if the creature is either a cleric or a magic-user, and it has extra abilities such as its flight and its natural attacks, my instinct is to use the higher level requirement for each level out of cleric and magic-user as well as adding some extra XP requirement as a further handicap. It should also be dramatically harder after "12th level" for a sphinx to advance, or else 12th level is its level cap for some reason.
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