[Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

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[Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Algebraist » Tue May 01, 2012 11:07 am

I understand that a lot of these spells are taken from Rolemaster versions, so the answers to many of my questions will be "That's how it is in Rolemaster". Still, I hope that some of these things can get clarified while Darkest Dungeons is still in a formative stage.

For today, Common Arcane Spell Paths:

Arcane Analysis:
As advertised. Speaking with my GM hat on, I'd find it akward to contrive occasions for when the higher ranks of Read Languages would be useful, and I'm quite certain that the base analysis spells would often be useless (It's a rock. It's made of granite It's origin was underground), but it's an information gathering path, and the 11-20 range looks like it contains some pretty impressive divinations.

Arcane perception:

Looks useful. Remote Hearing (10') is probably a little bit of an edge case. I get that the intent is to hear through walls and the like, but it's difficult to escape the initial impression (I can hear like I was standing two meters that way! Yay!)

Is Clairaudience capable of going around corners? For example, if I'm on the first floor of a building, can I send my viewpoint out the window and in through a window on the next story up, or does the ceiling count as an 'intervening object'

Bodily Enhancement:

Weigh item seems to have wandered in from a different spell list by mistake. I'm not sure how it fits in with the other spells. Shouldn't water breathing have the caveat about acidic liquids that Adaptable Breathing does?

Breaking and Entering:

I'm as fond of making a dramatic entrance as anybody, but 4 different Shatter Door spells? Really? And I'll note that none of them make any provision for the material the door is made of, or for shattering windows or other barriers. Shouldn't a metal door be more resistant to shattering than a wooden one? And where's my Un-defenestration spell?

Detections:
Like arcane analysis, a useful set of divination spells. It seems a little harsh to want 3 different spells to check an object for active magic, until the level 15 detect magic- most situations I can think of, players are going to want to check for all 3.

Does Detect Traps care if the trap has been set or not? What if a detected trap is disarmed while the spell is running?

Mage Hand:
How much does Holding Force hinder attempts to move while carrying the held item? Does it break as soon as the item moves or does it effectively act as extra encumbrance? What about casting one of the higher end Holding Force spells on somebody's gear as they fall off a cliff?

In general, how do the spells other than Rattle Object interact with held gear? Can I use Fling Object on somebody else's knife?

And if I know players, they're not going to wait for fling object to start trying to hurt people - They'll be trying to use moving force to get something over the head of an unsespecting victim and then drop it

TYPO: Mass Rattle (25lb): weighing up to 5lb - should be 25.

Resist Elements:
Just how often does being immune to natural light come up, anyway? This actually looks like one of the more powerful common paths: Immunity to natural fires as a 2nd level spell is pretty good. (And I would have guessed Fire Resistance as being higher level than Cold Resistance - Natural fires are probably a more frequent and serious threat than cold attacks)

Scroll Writing:
Can dual-sphere casters use this to write scrolls of non-arcane spells? When do we roll the spell penetration checks on symbols, on writing or on triggering? (And if I've gained a level since writing the symbol, do I need to rewrite it to gain the benefit of my new spell penetation bonus?

And do these really have the same casting time as regular spells? Wriggle my nose, twich my fingers, say "Azbankofulation" backwards three times and bam! new scroll?

Simple Conjuring
Illusions. All the interesting questions about illusions are in the magic chapter anyway.

Spell Protection:
Useful. I'm not sure there's much use for Divine Shield over the simpler Resist Magic +3, since weapon-like spells aren't very common. What goes into determining my melee to-hit bonus for the purpose of this spell? Does it care about what weapon I'm currently wielding, so my ability to parry magic missiles goes up if I draw my rapier?

And why does Arcane Immunity not grant the dodge bonus against weapon-like spells?

TYPO: Resist magic +5 should grant a +5 bonus.
TYPO: Magic Shield simply replicates the text of Divine Shield.

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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 pm

Algebraist wrote:I understand that a lot of these spells are taken from Rolemaster versions, so the answers to many of my questions will be "That's how it is in Rolemaster". Still, I hope that some of these things can get clarified while Darkest Dungeons is still in a formative stage.
I appreciate the feedback. Looking at it myself can get rather futile, since after a while I don't see the wood for the trees - I read what I expect it to say rather than what it actually says...
For today, Common Arcane Spell Paths:

Arcane Analysis:
As advertised. Speaking with my GM hat on, I'd find it akward to contrive occasions for when the higher ranks of Read Languages would be useful, and I'm quite certain that the base analysis spells would often be useless (It's a rock. It's made of granite It's origin was underground), but it's an information gathering path, and the 11-20 range looks like it contains some pretty impressive divinations.
One advantage of buying paths instead of individual spells is that a spell doesn't have to be overly powerful or useful to justify its existence. Would anyone bother buying "Analyse Stone" on its own? Probably not. But if they get it for free when they buy the list for its more useful spells then they may find it useful once in a blue moon and that is fun. Same with the higher level Read Languages spells. Sure, most of the time the first one will be fine; but when you desperately need to understand the complicated instructions for turning off the arcane device that's about to destroy the city you'll be glad you got the higher level ones for free when you bought the path for the lower level one.
Arcane perception:
Looks useful. Remote Hearing (10') is probably a little bit of an edge case. I get that the intent is to hear through walls and the like, but it's difficult to escape the initial impression (I can hear like I was standing two meters that way! Yay!)

Is Clairaudience capable of going around corners? For example, if I'm on the first floor of a building, can I send my viewpoint out the window and in through a window on the next story up, or does the ceiling count as an 'intervening object'
The intent with Clairaudience is that it could go around corners but not through a wall or closed door. It could go out of the window and in through the window on the next story up but only if both windows were open. I need to find a way of wording that better.
Bodily Enhancement:
Weigh item seems to have wandered in from a different spell list by mistake. I'm not sure how it fits in with the other spells.
That's one of those "It was in Rolemaster" cases. I always assumed it was an enhanced sense of touch that let you feel weight accurately when you pick something up, but that can't be the case since it works at range (albeit only 1' range).
Shouldn't water breathing have the caveat about acidic liquids that Adaptable Breathing does?
Yes it should. I'll change that.
Breaking and Entering:
I'm as fond of making a dramatic entrance as anybody, but 4 different Shatter Door spells? Really? And I'll note that none of them make any provision for the material the door is made of, or for shattering windows or other barriers. Shouldn't a metal door be more resistant to shattering than a wooden one? And where's my Un-defenestration spell?
I'll add a clause about it only working on non-magical doors; but it is based on the size of the door rather than the material it's made from. I'll also change the wording from "door" to "portal" and specify that it works on windows or gates too - in fact I'll do that to all the "door" spells on that path.
Detections:
Like arcane analysis, a useful set of divination spells. It seems a little harsh to want 3 different spells to check an object for active magic, until the level 15 detect magic- most situations I can think of, players are going to want to check for all 3.
It is a little harsh. Bear in mind that the other two spheres get their equivalent paths, so you're probably looking at 3 casters casting a level 1 spell each to cover all three spheres rather than a single caster needing to cast level 1,2 and 3 spells.
Does Detect Traps care if the trap has been set or not? What if a detected trap is disarmed while the spell is running?
I'd assume it doesn't matter whether it's set or not; only that it's a trap.
Mage Hand:
How much does Holding Force hinder attempts to move while carrying the held item?
By the listed poundage. Moving the item around is done as if it were heavier by that amount.
Does it break as soon as the item moves or does it effectively act as extra encumbrance?
It lasts for the duration and effectively acts as extra encumbrance.
What about casting one of the higher end Holding Force spells on somebody's gear as they fall off a cliff?
If it's high enough level to offset the weight of the person, then the person would be left dangling from the immobile item. However, since these aren't Snap spells getting the timing right on that would be hard.
In general, how do the spells other than Rattle Object interact with held gear? Can I use Fling Object on somebody else's knife?
I suppose all of them would need a penetration check for that sort of thing, although since they're not intended to be combat spells (except Rattle Object and to an extent Fling Object) I could clarify them to only work on "unattended" objects. That would be simpler.
And if I know players, they're not going to wait for fling object to start trying to hurt people - They'll be trying to use moving force to get something over the head of an unsespecting victim and then drop it
Fine. Use a Brawling or Crushing attack. Make them buy a weapon skill for aiming dropped objects if they want to use it repeatedly.
TYPO: Mass Rattle (25lb): weighing up to 5lb - should be 25.
I'll fix that.
Resist Elements:
Just how often does being immune to natural light come up, anyway? This actually looks like one of the more powerful common paths: Immunity to natural fires as a 2nd level spell is pretty good. (And I would have guessed Fire Resistance as being higher level than Cold Resistance - Natural fires are probably a more frequent and serious threat than cold attacks)
Being immune to natural light let you look at the sun with no problem (or look at things coming at you from the direction of the sun with no problem) and it would also protect you from sunstroke and sunburn if you're out in the strong sun for a long period. But no, it's not the most useful asepct of the spell. The lightning resistance is more useful.
Scroll Writing:
Can dual-sphere casters use this to write scrolls of non-arcane spells?
Yep. I might need to clarify that.
When do we roll the spell penetration checks on symbols, on writing or on triggering? (And if I've gained a level since writing the symbol, do I need to rewrite it to gain the benefit of my new spell penetation bonus?
Good question. The same applies to items (wands, staves and so forth) as well. I'll check how Rolemaster does it (although Rolemaster spell casting works a bit differently in terms of rolls) and put something thematically similar into the magic chapter.
And do these really have the same casting time as regular spells? Wriggle my nose, twich my fingers, say "Azbankofulation" backwards three times and bam! new scroll?
Yes and no. Scrolls in Darkest Dungeons are re-usable. It takes an Artificer weeks to make a blank scroll. Then it only takes you a round or two to put a spell on it. When the spell has been cast the scroll becomes blank again and can be re-used, and it takes you (or someone else) a round or two to put a new spell on it. The spells on this list don't create the scrolls; they just let you write spells onto them.
Simple Conjuring
Illusions. All the interesting questions about illusions are in the magic chapter anyway.
Yep. They were too complex (and it would have been too repetative) to repeat how they work in each spell description. The important point is that illusions are not mental. They are a combination of magically created images/sounds/force-fields. Knowing something is an illusion won't stop you seeing it, and won't stop it hurting you if it has physical aspects to it. They're Holodeck-style illusions rather than Matrix-style illusions.
Spell Protection:
Useful. I'm not sure there's much use for Divine Shield over the simpler Resist Magic +3, since weapon-like spells aren't very common. What goes into determining my melee to-hit bonus for the purpose of this spell? Does it care about what weapon I'm currently wielding, so my ability to parry magic missiles goes up if I draw my rapier?
Divine Shield is better than Resist Magic +3 partly because it lets you parry spells - and yes, you're physically parrying them with your weapon so using your rapier (if you are skilled in it) is better than not using it - and partly because because the +2 bonus stacks with the +3 bonus from Resist Magic +3. I think it says in the Magic chapter that similar spells don't stack but different ones do. So Resist Magic +2 and Resist Magic +3 don't stack, but either of them will stack with Divine Shield. If it doesn't say that in the Magic chapter, it should. I'll check it out.
And why does Arcane Immunity not grant the dodge bonus against weapon-like spells?
It should. I'll fix it.
TYPO: Resist magic +5 should grant a +5 bonus.
TYPO: Magic Shield simply replicates the text of Divine Shield.
I'll fix both of these.
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Yaztromo » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:42 pm

I'd like to have some clarification around the exclusive Empath path: Artificial Limbs.
As part of this path you can attach artificial limbs of various kind, like wood, glass, metal, mithril, give control of it to the "patient" and even grow skin on top of it.
What is unclear are the different properties of a wooden limb compared to a glass, or metal or mithril limb in the game mechanics (assuming that there are significant differences, but otherwise why having so many different recontructive materials?).
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:49 pm

Yaztromo wrote:I'd like to have some clarification around the exclusive Empath path: Artificial Limbs.
As part of this path you can attach artificial limbs of various kind, like wood, glass, metal, mithril, give control of it to the "patient" and even grow skin on top of it.
What is unclear are the different properties of a wooden limb compared to a glass, or metal or mithril limb in the game mechanics (assuming that there are significant differences, but otherwise why having so many different recontructive materials?).
There are no differences in terms of game mechanics. It's just that a wooden limb looks rather shoddy compared to a nice shiny glass or metal one. Also the latter are harder to make and therefore cost more - so they are a bit more "exclusive" and posh. A noble wouldn't be seen dead with a wooden hand, for example, but a commoner would be grateful for whatever prosthetic limb they can get...
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Yaztromo » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:04 pm

Hmmm... and what happens if I get a new critical hit on a prosthetic limb?
Do I get damage even if it is not really part of my body?
Will I bleed from a wooden leg?
Will a blunt weapon shatter my glass arm or not?
Will my bronze leg weight a lot more and slow me down?
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:31 am

I should probably add a sentence or two of clarification.

Rolemaster itself doesn't clarify, so I need to make something up...

I'd suggest that:
  • No prosthetic limb will bleed or take muscle damage, but you can still be stunned by a hit to one.
  • Wooden limbs can be broken by anything that breaks or shatters a bone.
  • Glass limbs can be broken only by things that shatter bones.
  • Metal limbs probably won't break at all under normal circumstances.
  • All artificial limbs count as having armour on the location, with respect to conditional critical effects.
  • Assuming magical animation, limbs will not slow you down or give you any penalty. Without animation, legs will give you a movement penalty and arms will give you a penalty to anything that takes an armour penalty.
More unusual critical effects should be resolved on a case-by-case basis by GM/Player agreement.
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Yaztromo » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:53 pm

Uhmmm... glass and (more or less) wood are not electrically conductive, while the metals are highly conductive...
Wood burns well with fire damage, while most of the other absorb heat and cease it back slowly...
In general all the materials (maybe except partially wood) are pretty cold resistant...

Do you need cestus if your arms are already made of steel?

My feeling is that this thread of thought can quickly grow arms and legs.... prosthetic, of course!
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Yaztromo » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote:
  • No prosthetic limb will bleed or take muscle damage, but you can still be stunned by a hit to one.
  • Wooden limbs can be broken by anything that breaks or shatters a bone.
  • Glass limbs can be broken only by things that shatter bones.
  • Metal limbs probably won't break at all under normal circumstances.
  • All artificial limbs count as having armour on the location, with respect to conditional critical effects.
  • Assuming magical animation, limbs will not slow you down or give you any penalty. Without animation, legs will give you a movement penalty and arms will give you a penalty to anything that takes an armour penalty.
More unusual critical effects should be resolved on a case-by-case basis by GM/Player agreement.
Hi Blacky, I appreciated that you added this comment to last revision :)
I'd suggest having a quick thought around magical damage effects...
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Algebraist » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:11 am

Sorry for leaving this thread for a while; I've been distracted. So, to resume:

ESOTERIC ARCANE PATHS:

Arcane Control:
As with scroll spells, these do affect non-arcane spells, right?
Is it at all possible to delay my own spells? or allow a friend to delay my spells - especially at the higher end, I can concieve of plans involving delayed spells.
If somebody is targeted by a delayed healing spell, but dies before the spell takes effect, does the spell still try to heal the corpse, or does the random target clause apply

Typo: Delay spell (10 rnds) has listed duration 5 rounds, should be 10
Typo: Delay spell 20 rounds has listed duration 10 rounds, should be 20

Arcane defence:
Useful, but kind of boring past the first couple of levels. Is a -20 penalty to hit really so much worse than an auto-miss? There's a really big difference in level between deflect missile and stop missile.

Arcane Enhancement:
Seems self explanatory. It does work on non-arcane spells, right? Since the range enhancers don't scale with the spell's original range, it looks to work well with all those 10' range spells, especially the various Mass X spells.

Arcane Summoning:
Nice. I like the distinction between Summoning demons and controlling demons. Does Find familiar get any sort of obedience out of the animal, or just a cat that knows how to say "More fish, Human!"?

Do the animals need to be native to the area? Can I pull off the old "Conjure Blue Whale in mid-air" trick? (I suspect that summons probably deserve a section in the Common Magical Effects part of Chapter 5)

Dispel Magic:
Looking at the progression, it seems like theres a "Resist Magic" spell missing. How do these spells interact with dual-sphere casters? Can a Necromancer be targeted with either Depower Arcane or Depower Divine? What sphere do their exclusive spell paths count as?

Enchantments:
If nobody attempts to awaken a speeping character, how long does the sleep spell last? What happens if I use Triggered Power Word Submit, and by the time the trigger occues, the target has no idea where I am?
Entertaining as Power Word: Kill can be, what happens if I pick the Grappling table, and roll a "limb grabbed" result? Who does the grabbing? Can the target escape?
(Is it a Darth Vader-style force choke?)

Haste:
Is Jog (3 targets) really that much better than casting Jog (1 target) 3 times? And do these spells need to target humans, or can I cast Run on my horse? If the target can fly, swim, etc do Jog/Run/Sprint work with thier non-standard movement, or is it walking only?
(And I don't mean to belittle 1st level casters, but "Can jog at 2x walking speed for 10 minutes isn't really something that needs magic)

Invisibility:
All the obvious questions here are actually answered back in chapter 5. Can the radius spells affect the ground, leaving an apparent crater?

Mystic Movement:
I take it that levitation is under the target's control, and can't be used to lift inanimate objects. I note that Feather Fall doesn't actually slow down the rate of falling, which removes some neat tricks from the D&D version.

(3rd ed feather fall is an immediate action, and 1 creature/level. I knew a sorceress who responded to an ambush by teleporting the party several hundred feet straight up, then casting feather fall so the party could prepare as they slowly descended to the ground)

Polymorph:
If I'm merged with a tree, are there any particular guidelines for what happens to me when you try to cut the tree down?

How does this affect the target's equipment? Grow self would just be embarassing if it didn't affect clothing and armor, but Shapechange would be strange if you shifted into an octupus and your shirt grew extra sleeves.

(I don't want to sell Arcane Shield short, but I think we got through all those spell paths without seeing a single weapon-like spell.)

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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Algebraist » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:19 am

COMMON DIVINE PATHS:
Control Weather:
Well, the low level prediction spels don't seem much better than you can do with mundane skills. How do the spells of this path interact with being indoors, underground or underwater? Can I use detect temprature to detect the temprature of water? Can I cast Create Rain indoors?

And is Sunlight just misleadingly named, or does it not work at night?

Divine Health:
Resist disease and poison. No particular comment.

Divine Insight:
Can Life Insight see through walls, windows or darkness, or is it only living targets with a clear line of sight?
I doubt that the -10 penalty for attacking while concentrating on detect invisible will be that big a deal, considering how hard it is to dodge without breaking invisibility.
Do Poison Insight (and other Insight spells) require the caster to know about the poison, or is there a free detect effect assoicated with the spell? (If I use poison insight on my dinner, will find out if it's poisoned?)

Divine Walls:
So, instant pit. Does anything happen to the removed stone, or is this a large disinergrate? Can I cast it to make a hole a wall, or must the pit go down?

In general, how flexible are these wall spells? Just a straight line wall, or can the wall be bent and curved?

Light Masterty:
How robust are spells like Light to having the object damaged? It is, after all, a classic adventurer tactic to cast light on an arrow and shoot the darkness.

Around how far away can a Beacon be seen, if I want to use it as a signal rather than illumination?

Minor healing:
Can the burn healing fix internal burns, such as lung damage from smoke/flame inhalation, or just surface burning? And are there any magic sleep effects that need the caveat on Wake, or are they all like the Enchantment path?

Movement:
I know, this is what it was like in Rolemaster. Still the whole "merge with tree" thing seems to belong elsewhere. And once you can fight on a surface without penalty, it seems like running should be an *easier* spell.

Nature's Calling:
So, what happens when two different casters attempt to control the same animal?

Are intelligent rocks without communication ability all that common?

Protection from Magic:
As with the Arcane version, there's a typo (+4 instead of +5) in Resist Magic +5. Also Resist magic +2 claims to only give a +1 bonus.

Sound mastery:
Can the silence effects be used to interfere with magic? Will a wall of silence stop a wall of command?

Also, will a wall of silence stop reflected sound from making its way around the wall? If a tree falls in the forest, there's a lot of echos going around - It's not like stoping an arrow.

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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Algebraist » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:20 am

ESOTERIC DIVINE PATHS
Blood Healing:
This looks like the most usefle of the esoteric healing paths, if you only have the points to take one. I'd actually suggest a sidebar explaining the interaction between the various Healing paths, as it's not immediately obvious to a new player that they don't stand alone, but instead work together to fix the many things that can go wrong when you get stabbed.

I'm not sure how Remove Blood Clot is used.

Bone Healing/Muscle Healing/Nerve Healing/Organ Healing:
Eh. See Blood healing. These healing paths are all kind of samey. The tricky part is going to be teaching new players a good order to learn the different paths. Regrow a missing nose is one of the most specific spells I can remember seeing in a while :)

Create Food and Drink:
Create food claims that the food will go off 'at the normal rate', but without specifying what sort of food is created, that doesn't mean much.

Divine Calming:
Calm animals seems odd; When people get attacked by animals, it's seldom motivated by strong anger on the animal's part - more common are animals attacking because of fear or hunger. Is calming intended to help with this, or just anger? And would calming a watchdog stop it from barking an alarm?

Divine Lore:
As with some other spells, I'm not quite sure what the advantage of casting Examine Hallowed (2/3 items) is supposed to be, when you can cast Examine Hallowed (1 item) multiple times.

Pathfinding:
Does the intuition failure chance hold for multiple castings, or can a character converge on the correct answer by repeated casting? (I assume the first)

Why does Locate Object have a duration, while Find object does not? Excatly what difference does this make in play - can locate object be used to track a moving object?

Symbols:
The usual questions about applying this to non-divine spells applies - If Remove symbols works against non-divine spells, it's fairly unusual, since most of the dispel magic style effects work on a sphere specific basis.

Can I inscribe a symbol at a higher level to make it harder to remove? E.g. Use Inscribe Symbol (2nd level) to create a symbol with a 1st level spell that can't be removed by Remove Symbol (1st level)?

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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:01 pm

Algebraist wrote:Sorry for leaving this thread for a while; I've been distracted. So, to resume:

ESOTERIC ARCANE PATHS:

Arcane Control:
As with scroll spells, these do affect non-arcane spells, right?
Yep

Is it at all possible to delay my own spells? or allow a friend to delay my spells - especially at the higher end, I can concieve of plans involving delayed spells.[/quote]

You can't delay your own spell, but you can have a friend delay it for you. You just choose not to resist, so their penetration check only needs a 0 for it to affect you.
If somebody is targeted by a delayed healing spell, but dies before the spell takes effect, does the spell still try to heal the corpse, or does the random target clause apply.
Since they haven't moved away, the corpse will be healed. Healing corpses is normal in Darkest Dungeons since you need to do it in order to be able to raise the person again.
Typo: Delay spell (10 rnds) has listed duration 5 rounds, should be 10
Typo: Delay spell 20 rounds has listed duration 10 rounds, should be 20
I've fixed these, thanks.
Arcane defence:
Useful, but kind of boring past the first couple of levels. Is a -20 penalty to hit really so much worse than an auto-miss? There's a really big difference in level between deflect missile and stop missile.
There is quite a difference due to the way the combat tables work. A -20 penalty will probably turn a hit into a miss, but a skilled archer may be able to hit anyway even with that penalty - and there's always the chance to roll a natural 20 and re-roll and add too.
Arcane Summoning:
Nice. I like the distinction between Summoning demons and controlling demons. Does Find familiar get any sort of obedience out of the animal, or just a cat that knows how to say "More fish, Human!"?
The animal must be a "willing" target, so the implication is that you have already befriended it. You don't get to control it magically, though.
Do the animals need to be native to the area? Can I pull off the old "Conjure Blue Whale in mid-air" trick? (I suspect that summons probably deserve a section in the Common Magical Effects part of Chapter 5)
The intent is that the animal must be summoned in a viable location - so fish or whales in water, flying creatures in the air, everything else must be on the ground. I've added a section to Chapter 5.
Dispel Magic:
Looking at the progression, it seems like theres a "Resist Magic" spell missing. How do these spells interact with dual-sphere casters? Can a Necromancer be targeted with either Depower Arcane or Depower Divine? What sphere do their exclusive spell paths count as?
I've also added a section to Chapter 5 for dual sphere casters. Basically:

1) They get mana based on the average of their two ability scores.
2) When they cast a spell from one or other of their spheres, it is treated as that sphere for all purposes.
3) A spell from a dual spell user's exclusive paths is resisted with the lower of the target's Save DCs, but is affected by spells that affect either of its spheres.

So a Necromancer's spell (assuming it was from one of their exclusive paths) would be resisted by the worse of your Arcane and Divine Save DCs, but could be blocked by either a Resist Arcane or Resist Divine spell.

Since dual casters are casters of both spheres, they are susceptible to either of the Depower spells.
Enchantments:
If nobody attempts to awaken a sleeping character, how long does the sleep spell last?
The duration of the spell is instant. Once they're asleep they're normally asleep rather than magically asleep. How long they stay asleep for will depend on how tired they are. If you cast it on them late at night, they're likely to sleep until morning. If you cast it at lunchtime they'll probably wake after an hour or so.
What happens if I use Triggered Power Word Submit, and by the time the trigger occurs, the target has no idea where I am?
Since that particular power word requires concentration on the caster's part; and the caster is not there to concentrate; the target will look around for the caster, not see them, and the spell will end. The triggered effect is more useful on power words with an independent duration.
Entertaining as Power Word: Kill can be, what happens if I pick the Grappling table, and roll a "limb grabbed" result? Who does the grabbing? Can the target escape?
(Is it a Darth Vader-style force choke?)
Good point. If I were the GM I'd assume that since the spell is instant it doesn't "hold on" to them, so they get whatever stuns and stuff the critical also has but are not pinned.
Haste:
Is Jog (3 targets) really that much better than casting Jog (1 target) 3 times? And do these spells need to target humans, or can I cast Run on my horse? If the target can fly, swim, etc do Jog/Run/Sprint work with thier non-standard movement, or is it walking only?
You can use them on any creature, and I'd assume it includes flying or swimming. You're right that Jog (3 targets) is less efficient in terms of mana than Jog (1 target). It's one of those "That's how Rolemaster did it" moments, I suppose...
(And I don't mean to belittle 1st level casters, but "Can jog at 2x walking speed for 10 minutes isn't really something that needs magic)
In full armour? Without tiring yourself in the slightest?

But yes. First level casters are rubbish. It's a standard Rolemaster joke that at 10th level a mage can lightning bolt you or fireball you, but at first level all they can do is make the tea (they get the "Boil Water" spell at level 1)!
Invisibility:
All the obvious questions here are actually answered back in chapter 5. Can the radius spells affect the ground, leaving an apparent crater?
No, because the ground is not entirely within the radius.
Mystic Movement:
I take it that levitation is under the target's control, and can't be used to lift inanimate objects. I note that Feather Fall doesn't actually slow down the rate of falling, which removes some neat tricks from the D&D version.
Correct on all counts
Polymorph:
If I'm merged with a tree, are there any particular guidelines for what happens to me when you try to cut the tree down?
Not off-hand. I suppose the tree would fall down leaving the caster exposed.
How does this affect the target's equipment? Grow self would just be embarrassing if it didn't affect clothing and armor, but Shapechange would be strange if you shifted into an octopus and your shirt grew extra sleeves.
I'd generally assume that clothing and equipment grow/shrink with the caster, and that similarly they get absorbed into the polymorphed form (so your octo-mage doesn't have a shirt with eight arms, but if the shirt that's absorbed into them had magic powers then it still does).
(I don't want to sell Arcane Shield short, but I think we got through all those spell paths without seeing a single weapon-like spell.)
Not in the common and esoteric paths there aren't. But don't forget these are the spells common to all arcane users.The best spells are in the exclusive paths of the different classes. Both Elementalists and Conjurers have plenty of weapon-like spells; as do many of the classes from the other spheres.
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Algebraist wrote:COMMON DIVINE PATHS:
Control Weather:
Well, the low level prediction spells don't seem much better than you can do with mundane skills.
You can easily predict "It'll rain tonight" with mundane skills. But it takes magic to say "It'll rain heavily tomorrow morning from 10.30 to 11.00" (which might be useful if planning an attack or something).
How do the spells of this path interact with being indoors, underground or underwater? Can I use detect temperature to detect the temperature of water? Can I cast Create Rain indoors?
I don't see why not, in any of those situations.
And is Sunlight just misleadingly named, or does it not work at night?
It works at night, but you'd get moonlight (or starlight) instead of sunlight since that's what's above the clouds. So yes, it's a bit misleadingly named. I've renamed it to "Clear Skies".
Divine Health:
Resist disease and poison. No particular comment.
No particular response.
Divine Insight:
Can Life Insight see through walls, windows or darkness, or is it only living targets with a clear line of sight?
It should only be visible living targets. I've fixed that.
I doubt that the -10 penalty for attacking while concentrating on detect invisible will be that big a deal, considering how hard it is to dodge without breaking invisibility.
Fair point.
Do Poison Insight (and other Insight spells) require the caster to know about the poison, or is there a free detect effect associated with the spell? (If I use poison insight on my dinner, will find out if it's poisoned?)
It gives you a free detect in that the resulting insight could be "no poison".
Divine Walls:
So, instant pit. Does anything happen to the removed stone, or is this a large disintegrate? Can I cast it to make a hole in a wall, or must the pit go down?
It's a dig, not a disintegrate, so the earth/rubble is scattered around the pit. It only digs down.
In general, how flexible are these wall spells? Just a straight line wall, or can the wall be bent and curved?
Straight vertical walls only. There are some wall spells that do curved walls but not on this list.
Light Mastery:
How robust are spells like Light to having the object damaged? It is, after all, a classic adventurer tactic to cast light on an arrow and shoot the darkness.
That's up to common sense, I presume. If I were GMing I'd not mind if an object with light on it got chipped, dented or bent, but if it broke into pieces I'd assume the spell would fail.
Around how far away can a Beacon be seen, if I want to use it as a signal rather than illumination?
Given that it shoots up at least 220 feet in the air and that it gives off so much illumination, it should be visible for a good few miles.
Minor healing:
Can the burn healing fix internal burns, such as lung damage from smoke/flame inhalation, or just surface burning?
Sounds fine to me.
And are there any magic sleep effects that need the caveat on Wake, or are they all like the Enchantment path?
Only one (it's a high level Bard spell).
Movement:
I know, this is what it was like in Rolemaster. Still the whole "merge with tree" thing seems to belong elsewhere. And once you can fight on a surface without penalty, it seems like running should be an *easier* spell.
As you say, that's like it was in Rolemaster. But note that it's "run or perform any other manoeuvre", so any acrobatic or fancy move you could do on ground can be done on the surface.
Nature's Calling:
So, what happens when two different casters attempt to control the same animal?
I'd assume the second one trumps the first. That's what happens with undead control.
Are intelligent rocks without communication ability all that common?
Depends on your campaign. I'd assume that if there were intelligent rocks or rock creatures then they'd have their own form of communication rather than speaking "common".
Protection from Magic:
As with the Arcane version, there's a typo (+4 instead of +5) in Resist Magic +5. Also Resist magic +2 claims to only give a +1 bonus.
Fixed.
Sound mastery:
Can the silence effects be used to interfere with magic? Will a wall of silence stop a wall of command?
You can still cast spells in a silent area. I'd say that spells aren't blocked. You can't hear them, but the magic still gets through.
Also, will a wall of silence stop reflected sound from making its way around the wall? If a tree falls in the forest, there's a lot of echos going around - It's not like stoping an arrow.
You'd probably get muffled echoes. But yes, it's more useful in a dungeon-type situation (or in a wide open space where there's not much for the sound to reflect off).
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Re: [Darkest Dungeons] Spell Path feedback

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:15 pm

Algebraist wrote:ESOTERIC DIVINE PATHS
Blood Healing:
This looks like the most useful of the esoteric healing paths, if you only have the points to take one. I'd actually suggest a sidebar explaining the interaction between the various Healing paths, as it's not immediately obvious to a new player that they don't stand alone, but instead work together to fix the many things that can go wrong when you get stabbed.
There's quite a bit of explanation in the combat and injury chapters already about that.
I'm not sure how Remove Blood Clot is used.
It's used to remove a natural blood clot, although someone having one would be a plot device since there's no spell or critical that can give you one. It looks like I've missed that one when cleaning up the spell/critical lists (in Rolemaster there are many more healing spells like this that heal things that can't be inflicted within the system, and occasionally vice versa where criticals can inflict stuff and it's very ambiguous what you'd need to do to fix it).

I might remove it - I'll have a think about it.
Bone Healing/Muscle Healing/Nerve Healing/Organ Healing:
Eh. See Blood healing. These healing paths are all kind of samey. The tricky part is going to be teaching new players a good order to learn the different paths.
They are quite samey. It's one of the disadvantages when playing a divine caster that a third of your common/esoteric paths are taken up by healing spells.

I don't think it's that difficult to realise the order to learn them - stopping people bleeding to death is obviously the first priority, followed by being able to fix simple broken bones and torn muscles. Organ and nerve healing are both essential later on, but at low level you won't be able to do much useful with them anyway so you can save them for later.
Regrow a missing nose is one of the most specific spells I can remember seeing in a while :)
You're laughing now, but wait until someone does an 'A' Slashing critical on you and rolls a 20. Then you'll be glad it exists...
Create Food and Drink:
Create food claims that the food will go off 'at the normal rate', but without specifying what sort of food is created, that doesn't mean much.
I've clarified that now. It creates a mixture of bread, cheese, fruit and precooked meat.
Divine Calming:
Calm animals seems odd; When people get attacked by animals, it's seldom motivated by strong anger on the animal's part - more common are animals attacking because of fear or hunger. Is calming intended to help with this, or just anger? And would calming a watchdog stop it from barking an alarm?
It would calm a guard dog, yes, or any kind of animal trained to attack. It would also calm a territorial animal that's being aggressive because you're getting too close to it or its young.
Divine Lore:
As with some other spells, I'm not quite sure what the advantage of casting Examine Hallowed (2/3 items) is supposed to be, when you can cast Examine Hallowed (1 item) multiple times.
I would suppose only if you're pushed for time and don't want to take the time to cast three spells. But you're right, there's not much reason to use some of the higher level spells.
Pathfinding:
Does the intuition failure chance hold for multiple castings, or can a character converge on the correct answer by repeated casting? (I assume the first)
If I were GMing I'd assume that repeated castings by the same caster in the same situation always give the same hunch. I'd be more lenient if multiple casters cast the spell once each.
Why does Locate Object have a duration, while Find object does not? Excatly what difference does this make in play - can locate object be used to track a moving object?
Locate Object can track a moving object or keep track of a stationary object while you move. With Find Object you just get a static "ping" of its direction and distance at that moment and if you can't go in a straight line to it you may have to cast the spell again once you've moved for a while to regain your relative bearings.
Symbols:
The usual questions about applying this to non-divine spells applies - If Remove symbols works against non-divine spells, it's fairly unusual, since most of the dispel magic style effects work on a sphere specific basis.
Yes, you can put a non-divine spell in a symbol. Remove symbol works on the symbol itself, not the spell that's in it - and the symbols are all divine in nature.
Can I inscribe a symbol at a higher level to make it harder to remove? E.g. Use Inscribe Symbol (2nd level) to create a symbol with a 1st level spell that can't be removed by Remove Symbol (1st level)?
I hadn't thought of that, but reading the wording it seems that that's the case.
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