New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Old School Revival at its best?

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TheHobgoblin
Goblin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:41 pm
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New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by TheHobgoblin »

I am sure these have been done a dozen times, but after I read the book I couldn't help but want to do the mental exercise of doing them myself. Anyway, I don't know how badly balanced these are, but I think they look about right to me.

Gnomes
Level|Experience|Hit Dice|BAB|Skills|Weapon Feats|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|Death Ray/Poison|Magic Wands|Paralysis/Petrify|Breath Weapon|Rod/Staff/Spell|Special 1|0|1d6|+1|4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|10|11|12|14|14|Heat Vision/Stone Lore/Small/Unobtrusive 2|3,000|2d6|+1|4|2|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|10|11|12|14|13| 3|6,000|3d6|+1|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|9|10|11|13|12| 4|12,000|4d6|+2|4|3|2|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|8|10|10|12|11| 5|24,000|5d6|+2|5|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|7|9|9|11|10| 6|48,000|6d6|+3|5|4|3|2|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|6|8|8|10|9| 7|90,000|7d6|+3|5|4|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|5|7|8|9|8| 8|190,000|8d6|+4|5|4|3|3|2|2|-|-|-|-|-|4|6|7|8|7| 9|380,000|9d6|+4|6|5|3|3|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|3|5|6|7|6| 10|520,000|9d6+1|+5|6|5|4|3|3|2|2|-|-|-|-|3|5|5|6|4| 11|660,000|9d6+2|+5|6|6|4|4|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|2|4|4|5|3| 12|800,000|9d6+3|+6|6|6|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|2|4|4|4|3| 13|940,000|9d6+4|+6|7|6|5|4|4|3|2|2|-|-|-|2|4|4|3|3| 14|1,080,000|9d6+5|+7|7|7|5|4|4|4|3|2|-|-|-|2|3|4|3|3| 15|1,220,000|9d6+6|+7|7|7|5|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|2|3|3|2|2|Spell Resistance 16|1,360,000|9d6+7|+8|7|7|5|5|5|4|3|2|2|-|-|2|3|3|2|2| 17|1,500,000|9d6+8|+8|8|7|6|5|5|4|4|3|2|-|- |2|2|3|2|2| 18|1,640,000|9d6+9|+9|8|7|6|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|2|2|3|2|2| 19|1,780,000|9d6+10|+9|8|7|6|5|5|5|4|3|2|2|-|2|2|2|2|2| 20|1,920,000|9d6+11|+10|8|7|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|-|2|2|2|2|2| 21|2,060,000|9d6+12|+10|9|7|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|2|2|2|2|2| 22|2,200,000|9d6+13|+11|9|7|6|6|5|5|5|4|3|2|2|2|2|2|2|2| 23|2,340,000|9d6+14|+11|9|8|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|3|2|2|2|2|2|2| 24|2,480,000|9d6+15|+12|9|8|7|7|6|6|5|5|4|3|2|2|2|2|2|2| 25|2,620,000|9d6+16|+12|10|8|7|7|6|6|5|5|4|4|3|2|2|2|2|2| 26|2,760,000|9d6+17|+13|10|8|7|7|7|6|6|5|5|4|3|2|2|2|2|2| 27|2,900,000|9d6+18|+13|10|8|7|7|7|6|6|5|5|5|4|2|2|2|2|2| 28|3,040,000|9d6+19|+14|10|8|8|8|7|6|6|6|6|5|4|2|2|2|2|2| 29|3,180,000|9d6+20|+14|11|8|8|8|7|7|7|6|6|5|5|2|2|2|2|2| 30|3,320,000|9d6+21|+15|11|9|8|8|8|7|7|7|6|6|5|2|2|2|2|2| 31|3,460,000|9d6+22|+15|11|9|8|8|8|7|7|7|7|6|6|2|2|2|2|2| 32|3,600,000|9d6+23|+16|11|9|9|8|8|8|8|7|7|7|6|2|2|2|2|2| 33|3,740,000|9d6+24|+16|12|9|9|9|9|8|8|8|7|7|7|2|2|2|2|2| 34|3,880,000|9d6+25|+17|12|9|9|9|9|9|8|8|8|8|7|2|2|2|2|2| 35|4,020,000|9d6+26|+17|12|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|8|8|8|2|2|2|2|2| 36|4,160,000|9d6+27|+18|12|10|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|2|2|2|2|2|


Equipment Restrictions: Gnomes may use leather armour, but may not use most weapons. The only weapons they may use are daggers, staves, slings, whips, pistols, nets and blowguns. However, because of their small stature they may not use medium or large weapons (which may restrict the previous list further unless small versions are made).

Spells: Gnomes may cast spells as a magic-user of the same level and may cast spells in armour, however their spell list is restricted.
Level 1 - Analyse, Charm Person, Detect Magic, Light, Read Languages, Read Magic, Sleep, Ventriloquism.
Level 2 - Continual Light, Detect Invisible, ESP, Invisibility, Locate Object, Mirror Image
Level 3 - Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Infravision, Invisibility 10' radius
Level 4 - Charm Monster, Confusion, Hallucinatory Terrain, Massmorph, Wizard Eye
Level 5 - Contact Outer Plane, Feeblemind, Teleport
Level 6 - Anti-Magic Shell, Geas, Invisible Stalker, Projected Image
Level 7 - Charm Plant, Lore, Mass Invisibility, Teleport Any Object
Level 8 - Clone, Mass Charm, Mind Barrier, Permanence, Travel
Level 9 - Gate, Maze, Timestop, Wish

Heat Vision: Like Elf & Dwarf
Stone Lore: Like Dwarf
Small: Like Halfling
Unobtrusive: Like Halfling
Spell Resistance: Like Dwarf


Goblin
Level|Experience|Hit Dice|BAB|Skills|Weapon Feats|Move Silently|Hide in Shadows|Hear Noise|Death Ray/Poison|Magic Wands|Paralysis/Petrify|Breath Weapon|Rod/Staff/Spell|Special 1|0|1d6|+1|4|2|20|10|30|13|14|13|16|15|Heat Vision/Small/Unobtrusive 2|1,500|2d6|+1|4|2|25|15|35|13|14|13|16|15| 3|3,000|3d6|+1|4|3|30|20|40|13|14|13|16|15| 4|6,000|4d6|+2|4|3|35|24|45|12|13|12|15|14| 5|12,000|5d6|+2|5|3|40|48|50|12|13|12|15|14| 6|24,000|6d6|+3|5|4|44|32|54|11|12|11|14|13| 7|45,000|7d6|+3|5|4|48|35|58|11|12|11|14|13| 8|94,000|8d6|+4|5|4|52|38|62|10|11|10|13|12| 9|190,000|9d6|+4|6|5|55|41|66|10|11|10|13|12| 10|290,000|9d6+2|+5|6|5|58|44|70|9|10|9|12|11| 11|390,000|9d6+4|+5|6|6|61|47|74|9|10|9|12|11| 12|490,000|9d6+6|+6|6|6|64|50|78|8|9|8|11|10| 13|590,000|9d6+8|+6|7|6|66|53|81|8|9|8|11|10| 14|690,000|9d6+10|+7|7|7|68|56|84|7|8|7|10|9| 15|790,000|9d6+12|+7|7|7|70|58|87|7|8|7|10|9| 16|890,000|9d6+14|+8|7|7|72|60|90|6|7|6|9|8| 17|990,000|9d6+16|+8|8|7|74|62|92|6|7|6|9|8|Multiple Attacks 18|1,900,000|9d6+18|+9|8|7|76|64|94|5|6|5|8|7| 19|1,190,000|9d6+20|+9|8|7|78|66|96|5|6|5|8|7| 20|1,290,000|9d6+22|+10|8|7|80|68|98|4|5|4|7|6| 21|1,390,000|9d6+24|+10|9|7|82|70|100|4|5|4|7|6| 22|1,490,000|9d6+26|+11|9|7|84|72|102|4|4|4|6|5| 23|1,590,000|9d6+28|+11|9|8|86|74|104|4|4|4|6|5| 24|1,690,000|9d6+30|+12|9|8|88|76|106|3|4|3|5|5| 25|1,790,000|9d6+32|+12|10|8|89|78|108|3|4|3|5|4| 26|1,890,000|9d6+34|+13|10|8|90|80|110|3|3|3|4|4| 27|1,990,000|9d6+36|+13|10|8|91|82|112|3|3|3|4|4|Multiple Attacks (3) 28|2,090,000|9d6+38|+14|10|8|92|84|114|2|3|2|4|4| 29|2,190,000|9d6+40|+14|11|8|93|86|116|2|3|2|3|3| 30|2,290,000|9d6+42|+15|11|9|94|88|118|2|2|2|3|2| 31|2,390,000|9d6+44|+15|11|9|95|90|120|2|2|2|3|2| 32|2,490,000|9d6+46|+16|11|9|96|92|122|2|2|2|2|2| 33|2,590,000|9d6+48|+16|12|9|97|94|124|2|2|2|2|2| 34|2,690,000|9d6+50|+17|12|9|98|96|126|2|2|2|2|2| 35|2,790,000|9d6+52|+17|12|9|99|98|128|2|2|2|2|2| 36|2,890,000|9d6+54|+18|12|10|100|100|130|2|2|2|2|2|


Equipment Restrictions: Goblins may use leather armour and shields. They may use any weapons. However, because of their small stature they may not use medium or large weapons.

Heat Vision: Like Elf & Dwarf
Small: Like Halfling
Unobtrusive: Like Halfling


Kobold
Level|Experience|Hit Dice|BAB|Skills|Weapon Feats|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|Find Traps|Remove Traps|Death Ray/Poison|Magic Wands|Paralysis/Petrify|Breath Weapon|Rod/Staff/Spell|Special 1|0|1d4|+1|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|10|10|13|14|13|16|15|Heat Vision/Scaly Hide/Small/Unobtrusive 2|2,800|2d4|+1|4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|15|15|13|14|13|16|15| 3|5,600|3d4|+1|4|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|20|20|13|14|13|16|15| 4|11,000|4d4|+2|4|3|1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|25|25|13|14|13|16|14| 5|22,000|5d4|+2|5|3|1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|30|30|12|13|12|15|14| 6|45,000|6d4|+3|5|4|2|1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|35|34|12|13|12|15|13| 7|84,000|7d4|+3|5|4|2|1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|40|38|12|13|12|15|13| 8|175,000|8d4|+4|5|4|2|2|1|1|-|-|-|-|-|45|42|11|12|11|14|13| 9|350,000|9d4|+4|6|5|2|2|1|1.1|-|-|-|-|-|50|46|11|12|11|14|12| 10|490,000|9d4+1|+5|6|5|2|2|2|1|1|-|-|-|-|54|50|11|11|10|13|11| 11|630,000|9d4+2|+5|6|6|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|58|54|10|11|10|13|10| 12|770,000|9d4+3|+6|6|6|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|-|62|58|9|10|9|12|10| 13|910,000|9d4+4|+6|7|6|3|2|2|2|1|1|-|-|-|66|61|9|10|9|12|9| 14|1,050,000|9d4+5|+7|7|7|3|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|70|64|9|10|9|12|8| 15|1,190,000|9d4+6|+7|7|7|3|2|2|2|2|1|-|-|-|73|67|8|9|8|11|8|Breath Evasion 16|1,330,000|9d4+7|+8|7|7|3|3|3|2|2|1|1|-|-|76|70|8|9|8|11|7| 17|1,470,000|9d4+8|+8|8|7|4|3|3|2|2|2|1|-|-|80|73|7|8|7|10|7| 18|1,610,000|9d4+9|+9|8|7|4|3|3|2|2|2|1|-|-|83|76|7|8|7|10|6| 19|1,750,000|9d4+10|+9|8|7|4|3|3|3|2|2|1|1|-|86|79|7|8|7|10|6| 20|1,890,000|9d4+11|+10|8|7|4|3|3|3|2|2|2|1|-|89|82|6|7|6|9|4| 21|2,030,000|9d4+12|+10|9|7|4|3|3|3|2|2|2|1|-|92|85|6|7|6|9|5| 22|2,170,000|9d4+13|+11|9|7|4|4|3|3|3|2|2|1|1|94|88|5|6|5|8|4| 23|2,310,000|9d4+14|+11|9|8|4|4|4|4|3|2|2|2|1|96|91|5|6|5|8|4| 24|2,450,000|9d4+15|+12|9|8|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|2|1|98|94|5|5|5|7|4| 25|2,590,000|9d4+16|+12|10|8|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|2|2|99|97|4|5|4|7|3| 26|2,730,000|9d4+17|+13|10|8|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|2|100|100|4|4|4|6|3| 27|2,870,000|9d4+18|+13|10|8|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|3|2|101|103|4|4|4|6|3| 28|3,010,000|9d4+19|+14|10|8|5|5|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|102|106|4|4|4|5|3| 29|3,150,000|9d4+20|+14|11|8|5|5|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|103|109|3|3|3|5|2| 30|3,290,000|9d4+21|+15|11|9|5|5|5|4|4|4|4|4|3|104|112|3|3|3|4|2| 31|3,430,000|9d4+22|+15|11|9|5|5|5|4|4|4|4|4|4|105|115|3|3|3|4|2| 32|3,570,000|9d4+23|+16|11|9|6|5|5|5|5|4|4|4|4|106|118|3|3|3|3|2| 33|3,710,000|9d4+24|+16|12|9|6|6|6|5|5|5|4|4|4|107|121|2|2|2|3|2| 34|3,850,000|9d4+25|+17|12|9|6|6|6|6|5|5|5|5|4|108|124|2|2|2|2|2| 35|3,990,000|9d4+26|+17|12|9|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|5|109|127|2|2|2|2|2| 36|4,130,000|9d4+27|+18|12|10|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|110|130|2|2|2|2|2|


Equipment Restrictions: Kobolds may use leather armour, but may not use most weapons. The only weapons they may use are daggers, staves, slings, whips, pistols, nets and blowguns. However, because of their small stature they may not use medium or large weapons (which may restrict the previous list further unless small versions are made).
Spells: Kobolds may cast spells as a magic-user of the same level and may cast spells in armour, they utilize the sorceror spell list for spell selection.

Heat Vision: Like Elf & Dwarf
Scaley Skin: Kobolds have a scaley hide. This gives them an additional point of protection to their armour class.
Small: Like Halfling
Unobtrusive: Like Halfling
Breath Evasion: Like Elf & Halfling

Hobgoblin/Half Hobgoblin
Level|Experience|Hit Dice|BAB|Skills|Weapon Feats|Move Silently|Death Ray/Poison|Magic Wands|Paralysis/Petrify|Breath Weapon|Rod/Staff/Spell|Special 1|0|1d8|+1|4|4|20|12|13|14|15|16|Heat Vision 2|2,100|2d8|+1|4|4|25|12|13|14|15|16| 3|4,200|3d8|+2|4|5|30|11|12|13|14|15| 4|8,400|4d8|+2|4|5|35|11|12|13|14|15| 5|16,800|5d8|+3|5|5|40|10|11|12|13|14| 6|33,000|6d8|+4|5|6|44|9|10|11|12|13| 7|67,000|7d8|+4|5|6|48|9|10|11|12|13| 8|132,000|8d8|+5|5|6|52|8|9|10|11|12| 9|260,000|9d8|+6|6|7|55|7|9|9|10|11| 10|400,000|9d8+2|+6|6|7|58|7|8|9|10|11|Smash/Parry 11|520,000|9d8+4|+7|6|8|61|6|7|8|9|10|Multiple Attacks 12|660,000|9d8+6|+8|6|8|64|6|7|8|9|10| 13|800,000|9d8+8|+8|7|8|66|6|6|7|8|9| 14|940,000|9d8+10|+9|7|8|68|6|6|7|8|9| 15|1,080,000|9d8+12|+10|7|9|70|6|6|7|8|9| 16|1,220,000|9d8+14|+10|7|9|72|5|6|6|7|8| 17|1,360,000|9d8+16|+11|8|9|74|5|6|6|7|8| 18|1,500,000|9d8+18|+12|8|9|76|5|5|6|7|8|Multiple Attacks (3) 19|1,640,000|9d8+20|+12|8|10|78|5|5|6|6|7| 20|1,780,000|9d8+22|+13|8|10|80|5|5|6|6|7| 21|1,920,000|9d8+24|+14|9|10|82|5|5|6|6|7| 22|2,060,000|9d8+26|+14|9|10|84|4|5|5|5|6| 23|2,200,000|9d8+28|+15|9|11|86|4|5|5|5|6| 24|2,340,000|9d8+30|+16|9|11|88|4|4|5|5|6| 25|2,480,000|9d8+32|+16|10|11|89|4|4|5|4|5| 26|2,630,000|9d8+34|+17|10|11|90|4|4|5|4|5| 27|2,760,000|9d8+36|+18|10|12|91|4|4|5|4|5| 28|2,900,000|9d8+38|+18|10|12|92|3|4|4|3|4| 29|3,040,000|9d8+40|+19|11|12|93|3|4|4|3|4| 30|3,180,000|9d8+42|+20|11|13|94|3|4|4|3|4| 31|3,320,000|9d8+44|+20|11|13|95|3|3|3|2|3| 32|3,460,000|9d8+46|+21|11|13|96|3|3|3|2|3| 33|3,600,000|9d8+48|+22|12|14|97|3|3|3|2|3| 34|3,740,000|9d8+50|+22|12|14|98|2|2|2|2|2| 35|3,880,000|9d8+52|+23|12|14|99|2|2|2|2|2| 36|4,020,000|9d8+54|+23|12|15|100|2|2|2|2|2|


Equipment Restrictions: Hobgoblins may use any weapons. May use leather, scale or chain armour as well as shields.

Heat Vision: Like Elf & Dwarf

Orcs/Half-Orcs
Level|Experience|Hit Dice|BAB|Skills|Weapon Feats|Movement Rate|Death Ray/Poison|Magic Wands|Paralysis/Petrify|Breath Weapon|Rod/Staff/Spell|Special 1|0|1d10|+1|4|4|40'|12|13|14|15|16|Heat Vision 2|2,300|2d10|+1|4|4|45'|12|13|14|15|16| 3|4,600|3d10|+2|4|5|45'|11|12|13|14|15| 4|9,200|4d10|+2|4|5|50'|11|12|13|14|15| 5|18,400|5d10|+3|5|5|55'|10|11|12|13|14| 6|36,800|6d10|+4|5|6|55'|9|10|11|12|13|Smash 7|69,000|7d10|+4|5|6|60'|9|10|11|12|13| 8|144,000|8d10|+5|5|6|60'|8|9|10|11|12| 9|287,000|9d10|+6|6|7|65'|7|9|9|10|11| 10|427,000|9d10+3|+6|6|7|65'|7|8|9|10|11| 11|565,000|9d10+6|+7|6|8|70'|6|7|8|9|10| 12|705,000|9d10+9|+8|6|8|75'|6|7|8|9|10|Multiple Attacks 13|845,000|9d10+12|+8|7|8|80'|6|6|7|8|9| 14|985,000|9d10+15|+9|7|8|85'|6|6|7|8|9| 15|1,125,000|9d10+18|+10|7|9|90'|6|6|7|8|9| 16|1,265,000|9d10+21|+10|7|9|95'|5|6|6|7|8| 17|1,405,000|9d10+24|+11|8|9|100'|5|6|6|7|8| 18|1,545,000|9d10+27|+12|8|9|100'|5|5|6|7|8| 19|1,685,000|9d10+30|+12|8|10|105'|5|5|6|6|7| 20|1,825,000|9d10+33|+13|8|10|105'|5|5|6|6|7| 21|1,965,000|9d10+36|+14|9|10|105'|5|5|6|6|7|Multiple Attacks (3) 22|2,105,000|9d10+39|+14|9|10|105'|4|5|5|5|6| 23|2,245,000|9d10+42|+15|9|11|105'|4|5|5|5|6| 24|2,385,000|9d10+45|+16|9|11|105'|4|4|5|5|6| 25|2,525,000|9d10+48|+16|10|11|105'|4|4|5|4|5| 26|2,665,000|9d10+51|+17|10|11|105'|4|4|5|4|5| 27|2,805,000|9d10+54|+18|10|12|105'|4|4|5|4|5| 28|2,945,000|9d10+57|+18|10|12|105'|3|4|4|3|4| 29|3,085,000|9d10+60|+19|11|12|105'|3|4|4|3|4| 30|3,225,000|9d10+63|+20|11|13|105'|3|4|4|3|4| 31|3,365,000|9d10+66|+20|11|13|105'|3|3|3|2|3| 32|3,505,000|9d10+69|+21|11|13|105'|3|3|3|2|3| 33|3,645,000|9d10+72|+22|12|14|105'|3|3|3|2|3| 34|3,785,000|9d10+75|+22|12|14|105'|2|2|2|2|2| 35|3,925,000|9d10+78|+23|12|14|105'|2|2|2|2|2| 36|4,065,000|9d10+81|+23|12|15|105'|2|2|2|2|2|Multiple Attacks (4)


Equipment Restrictions: Orcs may use any weapons. May use leather or scale mail armour.

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Blacky the Blackball
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Re: New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by Blacky the Blackball »

I like these!

My only comment would be that I think the Kobold's XP progression is a bit punitive based on the the class abilities. I'd reduce it a bit.
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Viktyr Korimir
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Re: New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by Viktyr Korimir »

Be nice to have some demihuman variant classes, like the Dwarf Cleric and Shadow Elf. For a little variety.

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Re: New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by TheHobgoblin »

I don't know that the Kobold's experience is really so very high when put next to a Magic User.

The Kobold gets 2/3rds of a Magic User progression and their weapon selection isn't hampered much by small size.
They get to cast their spells without the use of books or memorization.
They get to wear leather armor, have a -1 to their AC from their skin, and have another -2 to their AC against creatures larger than human size. This gives them slightly more chance of survival compared to a Magic User.
They also get the ability to find and detect traps, can see in the dark and can hide outdoors.
All considered I think it should cost a bit more than a Magic User. However, I see I made a mistake on my level progression past 9th level and the Magic User level cost actually overtakes them by level 15.

The Goblin and Hobgoblin are both admittedly a bit... uninspired. But short of giving the goblin some Druid spells or the ability to train animals or making the Hobgoblin be more like a melee ranger without spells or a warlord, I couldn't come up with anything too interesting other than tossing a couple thief abilities on them and decreasing their access to armor. The goblin probably comes out as too weak as a result, but the Hobgoblin almost certainly has no problems beyond not being particularly different from a fighter.

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Yaztromo
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Re: New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by Yaztromo »

As you can read also here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=7656
you can find all this material ready made in the Orcs of Thar Gazzetteer (and some more in the tall tales of the small folk...), including the basic rules to extend the options to become a character to most intelligent races - everything well detailed.
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TheHobgoblin
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Re: New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by TheHobgoblin »

Yeah. I looked at the book after I was done and, speaking as respectfully as I can, it looks like whomever wrote the Orc one spent less time actually thinking about it than it took to print out the book. It assumed that the AC in the monster manual was based on their skin (so goblins have tougher skin than dwarfs?), made their hit points per a level based on the entry in the monster manual and... nothing else. No abilities, none at all. Not at first level, not at any level. They ended up being big useless bags of hit points if leveled up. I suppose their low level cost meant one could get their BAB and saves a bit faster, but without weapon feats, proficiency or special abilities-- they are crap.

Compared this to the 3 humanoids in the main book-- each of them has 3-5 racial abilities at first level, meaningful class abilities and typically a high level special ability. The difference is night and day.

This is because the PHB races were thought of as actual iconic heroes, races that had specific, definable strength compared to humans and one could well imagine what they were good at. TSR never did this for the "bad guy" races. It never actually considered them as player options even when they were writing a specific book with the specific aim of fulfilling that purpose. They'd put in some thought into really wonky, rare, half-mad concepts for races in other settings if they were initially thought of as player races, but for those whose original purpose was merely to be pinatas that would be beaten on until they released their prizes of gold and experience, even when they claimed to be putting thought into it, no actual thought was put.
The end result was always that if one wanted a powerful villain, a strong encounter-- one used evil versions of the player races and totally forgot about the goblins, kobolds and orcs. In fact, even when they were written about in campaign settings, it was never really defined exactly what each of them were good at other than breeding, even when it was clear that they surely must be good at something to be surviving under such harsh conditions.

Now, to be fair, it really isn't particularly nice to give beginning DMs monsters with half a dozen different special abilities that they need to keep track of. 4E certainly showed exactly how that can go totally awry. I am totally in favor of dropping or simplifying all abilities when they are used as basic monsters. This should go for the dwarf, elf and halfling as well. I certainly wouldn't have advocated filling every basic low-level monster entry with the 3-4 special abilities, spells and thief skills that players would utilize when that character becomes the sole focus of their attention.

Even the AD&D book of humanoids was downright shameful. Utter waste of paper that never needed to exist since, whomever was put on the project, clearly didn't take it seriously. Once again, playing these primary four options gives one a character whose attributes are worse than no adjustment at all, whose class levels are insanely restrictive and who have no useful abilities and some nasty disadvantages beyond merely being treated with suspicion as one might expect.

There really is no reason to treat half-hearted attempts at doing this as though it were holy gospel, can never be questioned, redone. It was done badly before, I saw if one is going to redo the system-- do it right the second time.

And, over time we have come to determine what the other races are good at:
Gnomes are good with both technology and nature (depending on what they focus on), they are friendly and affiable and make friends quickly (even with animals!), they specialize in casting illusion spells. But, plenty has been said on Gnomes and I am sure somewhere there is probably a Gnome racial write-up much better than mine.

Let's focus on the ones that were done a disfavor in TSR's work:
Goblins are sneaky, ambushing little buggers who work very well as part of a team. They prefer hit and run combat, usually skirmishing in close. Though some can totally focus on being thieves, unless they focus their thief skills seem to begin and end at stealth and scouting-- they don't tend to utilize a lot of locks, mechanical traps, pick pockets, etc.They can live out in the wild where humans would really, really struggle to make it, seemingly able to survive just fine despite not being particularly bright or having a lot of common sense. They don't require much in life and they aren't particularly picky. They are good at training predatory animals (apes, spiders, wolves, etc.) and will ride them into battle. Occassionally, in other ways, show how they are masters of the "dark side" of nature. When removed from this element, however, they tend to merely be fodder foot soldiers who, when marched into battle, will quickly flee back to safe terrain.

Hobgoblins are civilized when compared to these other goblinoids, though not at the same level as humans or the other "good" races. They can make their own armor and weapons. They work well in groups, but in a much more organized manner than goblins. They can be a bit rigid, but those that rise to prominence command respect from others. They prefer to fight with swords, shields, spears and bows, with few exceptions they don't like bulky armor or two-handed weapons, instead they prefer medium armor that allows them to move quickly and quietly across the battlefield and would rather use a shield or a second weapon in that off-hand. They are like to fight defensively and are tough and can roll with blows that would stun others. They don't seem to generally tend towards spell-casting, one will sometimes seem a cleric or shaman, but the typical member of the race is a fighter (skirmisher, phalanx or archer), fighter/thief (though one would imagine them focusing primarily on stealth, detection and social skills than typical thief abilities), a ranger (who is basically a specialized fighter/thief) or a unit commander (such a class requires more advanced mechanics than this game would be allowing for)

Kobolds seem pretty useless at first glance. Small, weak, and petty. They aren't good fighters, in fact most tend not to fight. One typically can't be taken down by Kobolds unless they jump you 5 on 1 or something. Except for being small and a bit tricky to whack, they really are far too weak to present anything other than an annoyance. However, there is reason to suspect their weakness belies a hidden inner strength. Though perceived as unintelligent, they are actually quite good at making traps and will protect their lairs and treasures with traps rather than troops. Furthermore, the blood of dragons runs in their veins and on the rare occasion when one does manage to survive long enough and learn enough to really begin unlocking their potential, their ancient draconic lineage is revealed when they begin slinging spells. By making them a good spell-casting class that only unlocks their spells at later levels, one keeps the flavor of them being 4hp losers with poor AC and poor weapon choices just as any first level Magic User who doesn't have any spells would be.

Orcs are raging, barbaric fighters who take it as a matter of pride to use only the simplest of armors. They are a bit like a homing missile in battle, give them their big axes point them in a direction and watch them fly at their target at lightning speed and hack it in half in the blink of an eye. They have little regard for their own safety when fighting, instead riding the thrill of the rush of battle. When not on a battlefield, they are noted for not being particularly bright, well-mannered, insightful or having much in the way of skills or abilities one can praise them for. They live in brutal, competitive societies that rarely ever build anything much resembling civilization. And yet... somehow they survive. They can eat the worst trash, suffer the most terrible indignities, sleep anywhere and seem just entirely used to terrible weather (to a greater degree than goblins who at least prefer nice cozy underground caverns or forests), whether desolate desserts or the most craggy, blisteringly cold barren wastelands, somehow the typical Orcs manage to live there while other races have to stick close to their small little oases and hamlets of safety.

So you see-- there really is so much flavor to tap into for possible racial abilities that can be implemented into the class. Aside from possibly giving the Orc class the ability to ignore effects from bad weather conditions, reducing their need for food or allowing them to get proper rest without proper bedding (none of which seems to have a point due to none of those subsystems existing in the game), I think I have done a fairly good job with them.
The Kobold also gets the ability to begin unlocking the secrets of its blood and hurling spells after its first couple levels of being a pretty useless trap detector. So it fits the concept I was going for pretty well too.

The hobgoblin may be too bland right now, but I really can't think of any way to better convey their flavor better than is already given without implementing complicated rules or extra subsystems. Perhaps that they just aren't really different enough from basic Fighters to warrant any more alterations.

The goblin... well, I think I have covered their sneaky, ambushing, scouting aspect. However, right now they are basically a thief that has given up most of its abilities for a wider selection of weapons and.... little else of note. I feel like their ability to harness the dark, predatory aspects of nature should be somehow added in order to give them some compelling flavor.

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Blacky the Blackball
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Re: New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by Blacky the Blackball »

TheHobgoblin wrote:Kobolds seem pretty useless at first glance. Small, weak, and petty. They aren't good fighters, in fact most tend not to fight. One typically can't be taken down by Kobolds unless they jump you 5 on 1 or something. Except for being small and a bit tricky to whack, they really are far too weak to present anything other than an annoyance. However, there is reason to suspect their weakness belies a hidden inner strength. Though perceived as unintelligent, they are actually quite good at making traps and will protect their lairs and treasures with traps rather than troops. Furthermore, the blood of dragons runs in their veins and on the rare occasion when one does manage to survive long enough and learn enough to really begin unlocking their potential, their ancient draconic lineage is revealed when they begin slinging spells. By making them a good spell-casting class that only unlocks their spells at later levels, one keeps the flavor of them being 4hp losers with poor AC and poor weapon choices just as any first level Magic User who doesn't have any spells would be.
To be pedantic, kobolds have no connection to dragons in the TSR versions of D&D (and in Dark Dungeons). That's something that was only introduced in the WotC editions. In Dark Dungeons - and in the TSR editions - they're little dog-men, not little magical reptilians.
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Re: New Demihuman Classes for Dark Dungeons

Post by TheHobgoblin »

Technically they were small reptillian dog-people. But, even in the early editions that I am reading pdfs of there are some sentences written to suggest that they might be some sort of ancient race or better than they appear to be.

It wasn't until WotC that they were really given any thought and the idea of them being tiny dragon people was committed to.

But again, it is rather shameful that it required the take over of the game system by another company to put any real thought into what exactly a race you spent a lot more time interacting with and opposing than one ever did Dwarfs or Elfs or Halflings was good at and how they might become more formidable once they gained some power.

A much better story can be crafted once your villains stop being multi-shaped pinatas and start being defined.

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