Ravenloft as the Shadowfell

[combatmedic]

Bluetspur was pretty much dropped from later materials, probably because it was such a poor fit for a Gothic horror inspired world. Mind-flayers, really? No thanks.


The Shadow Rift...not really my favorite, either. It would work well with the Shadowfell, though.

I still say that the Shadowfell is an odd pick for Ravenloft. Ah, and the designers didn't 'move Ravenloft to the Shadowfell'- unless maybe they actually placed Barovia there. The new designers borrowed from Ravenloft the conceit of a vilain trapped in a small prison wordlet, surrounded by mists. They seem to have ditched the rest of the Ravenloft setting. Presumably they realized that most of it just didn't work well in the Shadowfell without a lot of shoehorning. The Shadowfell just doesn't seem to be focused on Gothic horror the way Ravenloft is.

Plenty of Ravenloft fans will no doubt keep playing in the original setting, though. 3E didn't 'kill' AD&D, and 4E hasn't 'killed' 3E rules or settings. That's the nice part about this hobby. It's your game, and those are your worlds. Do with it all what you will.

[ripvanwormer]

But isn't the whole point of this thread the question of actual Ravenloft, Barovia and Darkon and the rest, as the Shadowfell rather than a demiplane? If it isn't, I'm at a loss to imagine what you're even complaining about. Is it that it represents an adulteration of the pure concept of Ravenloft, or that it adulterates the pure concept of the Shadowfell?

While the old Ravenloft domains haven't appeared in 4e yet (though Kas has, in the Shadowfell), I suspect that when/if they do, they'll be in the Shadowfell, and you won't be able to tell the difference from Ravenloft as a demiplane.

[combatmedic]

Who's complaining, Rip? The OP solicited opinions from the community, and I gave mine. I happen to think that fusing Ravenloft setting with the Shadowfell is not a great idea. It just doesn't work for me. If you don't agree, so what? No one ever told you that you had to agree with me. You need to take it down a notch, or people will start to think that you're on the Hasbro payroll.

[ripvanwormer]

Yeah, I overreacted, because I mistakingly thought you had shifted arguments, moving from merely expressing an opinion (I'd rather Ravenloft stayed a demiplane) to declaring the entire discussion out of bounds (you can't have this conversation because WotC hasn't actually brought Ravenloft into 4e yet). By "complaining," I meant your expressed dislike of the idea. My thought was that if you weren't complaining about Ravenloft being the Shadowfell now (since, as you pointed out, it isn't now, technically), then you must have some other complaint that goes beyond the initial scope of this thread, and I was trying to suss out what that might be. But I was mistaken; your complaint was the Ravenloft-Shadowfell comparison after all, and you weren't trying to censor the discussion.

I'm amused that anyone would mistake me for a WotC apologist, though, considering all the rants I've made on the WotC and Planewalker boards about how the 4e cosmology is objectively less useful in gameplay than the 2e cosmology. Not that I expect you to have read them, but it's still amusing to me. In this particular instance, though, the difference is trivial and wouldn't necessarily be noticeable in the course of play, assuming not every part of the Shadowfell is exactly the same as far as planar traits go.

[combatmedic]

Yeah, I overreacted, because I mistakingly thought you had shifted arguments, moving from merely expressing an opinion (I'd rather Ravenloft stayed a demiplane) to declaring the entire discussion out of bounds (you can't have this conversation because WotC hasn't actually brought Ravenloft into 4e yet). By "complaining," I meant your expressed dislike of the idea. My thought was that if you weren't complaining about Ravenloft being the Shadowfell now (since, as you pointed out, it isn't now, technically), then you must have some other complaint that goes beyond the initial scope of this thread, and I was trying to suss out what that might be. But I was mistaken; your complaint was the Ravenloft-Shadowfell comparison after all, and you weren't trying to censor the discussion.

I'm amused that anyone would mistake me for a WotC apologist, though, considering all the rants I've made on the WotC and Planewalker boards about how the 4e cosmology is objectively less useful in gameplay than the 2e cosmology. Not that I expect you to have read them, but it's still amusing to me. In this particular instance, though, the difference is trivial and wouldn't necessarily be noticeable in the course of play, assuming not every part of the Shadowfell is exactly the same as far as planar traits go.

Right, now we are on the same page. No biggie- it's easy to misread somebody in this medium. The context clues are few or just plain missing.

I have actually read a few of your rants. Like you, I prefer the Great Wheel to the 4E cosmology.

[ripvanwormer]

Emoticons tend to be counterproductive where I'm concerned. I always interpret those blinking, grimacing, leering little gargoyles in the worst possible way.

[combatmedic]

Emoticons tend to be counterproductive where I'm concerned. I always interpret those blinking, grimacing, leering little gargoyles in the worst possible way.

Heh, indeed! Some people abuse the little devils.

[Cthulhudrew]

Bluetspur was pretty much dropped from later materials, probably because it was such a poor fit for a Gothic horror inspired world. Mind-flayers, really? No thanks.

I don't know. I think mind flayers would/could be perfectly suited to gothic horror- very Cthulhu-esque (which, I imagine, was their inspiration).

Bluetspur, I would agree, was not the most effective way to present the mind flayers in such a setting. It was just a barren wasteland, incapable of sustaining life (on the surface) and the lands beneath were populated pretty much exclusively by mind flayers, vampire mind flayers, and mind flayer servants (who must be rather grotesque, inbred mutants by now, considering the isolation of the land). It's one of those settings that is basically only good/useful as a one-off sort of adventure, and not at all worth making a whole campaign in. I think they could/should have done something much more interesting incorporating the mind flayers into Ravenloft if they'd tried.

[ripvanwormer]

I've heard it suggested that, once it was no longer part of the Core, Bluetspur became part of the Demiplane of Dread's moon. I think that Ravenloft adventures in space could be a very cool idea, whether through spelljammers, astral projection, or other means. If that no longer counts as gothic... oh well. I think there's room for other kinds of horror in the setting. Cavitius, Bluetspur, the Shadow Rift, and other scenes might not be properly gothic, but are they fun?

[combatmedic]

Some domains are simply poor fits for Ravenloft, IMO. You just listed several. I think it was a terrible idea to cram Vecna and Kas into Ravenloft. They don't fit my conception of the setting, so I've always ignored them.The Shadow Rift is salvageable, but it really does not work for me as written. Bluetspur, Cavitius? No, thank you. Cavitius is too cartoonish and uber-powered for me. Bluetspur has another problem: it's too alien. Gothic and "cosmic/weird" don't always mix so well, and I say that as a Lovecraft fan. Sure, weird besties are fine. Start building whole domains around such utterly alien creatures as mind-flayers, and you risk losing the Gothic sensibilities of the setting. A mind flayer isn't an interesting moral case- he's just an "evil" alien creature that eats brains. A lone mind-flayer might be a good change of pace- a domain full of them just doesn't fit the setting.

YMMV, but I like Ravenloft because it has a strong central concept/set of themes: Gothic horror added to "D&D' style fantasy. If you introduce space travel, lots of aliens, etc: you have Spelljammer with less goofiness and more spookiness. That might be a really fun campaign setting, but it would not be Ravenloft for me. It would be less fun.

[ripvanwormer]

Huh. I guess it depends on what you want from your campaign. If anything that's un-Gothic is less fun for you, then you're going to want to be more purist and exclusionary. If you think other flavors can be fun as well, then maybe you don't need to be so exclusive.

Fortunately, both Ravenloft and the Shadowfell are built to cater to both audiences. The Mists are a plot device that allows the PCs (and everyone else) to interact only with the domains the DM wants them to interact with. Anything else can easily be ignored. In this way, each domain has its own distinct flavor preserved. Truly, the best of both worlds. If there's a space war between shadar-kai and zombie halflings in the next domain over, your PCs need never know.

[combatmedic]

I'd never use a space war between zombie halflings and shadar-kai in my Ravenloft game. I don't have to 'ignore' it but somehow assume its inclusion in the parts of the setting not seen by the PCs. No, it simply would not exist.

You have it right, though. Ravenloft is Gothic horror mixed with "regular" D&D. It has a unique feel. Toss in the kitchen sink and it loses much of its appeal for me. My players tend to agree, and so they are happy.

[Azaghal]

When Ravenloft came out it was not something that I thought much of, over the years my tastes have changed and I've found that I can enjoy Ravenloft. For me it needs to be a Gothic horror setting to be Ravenloft per se, but I can also enjoy Chuthulu-horror and other horror settings types as well.

[ripvanwormer]

I was looking at Dungeon World from Fast Forward Entertainment today at the local gaming shop, and I had this exchange with the store's owner.

"Are you familiar with Ravenloft?"

"Yeah."

"That's just like Ravenloft, except instead of being gothic, it's a world where everything's part of a dungeon."

[Azaghal]

And just how old was the shopowner? under 30?

[ripvanwormer]

Nah, mid-thirties, maybe a little older. He's definitely older than me. I think he was trying to say it was a world that could draw and imprison people from other worlds, but I was amused that his interpretation of what Ravenloft could be was even more liberal than mine is.

[Azaghal]

Nah, mid-thirties, maybe a little older. He's definitely older than me. I think he was trying to say it was a world that could draw and imprison people from other worlds, but I was amused that his interpretation of what Ravenloft could be was even more liberal than mine is.

That's pretty liberal! When I owned a Gamestore (96-98) there were hundreds of products I didn't/hadn't played but I made sure I knew what I was talking about.

[combatmedic]

Oh, I remember buying a copy of Dungeonworld when it first came out. At the time, I thought it looked cool. For whatever reason, I never ended up running it and I eventually sold the book. I still like the idea, though.

[Cthulhudrew]

Dungeonworld reminds me of the Dungeon series edited by Philip Jose Farmer. Pretty cool concept, though the execution wasn't always the best (and it really fell apart with the final book, sadly).