4th ed conversion, clerical & god stuff thread

A project to create a Spelljammer conversion to 4th edition rules.
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4th ed conversion, clerical & god stuff thread

Post by Silverblade-T-E » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:51 pm

post thoguhts on, conversions of gods, clerics and their abilities etc, here
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Re: 4th ed conversion, clerical & god stuff thread

Post by Dragonhelm » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:07 pm

The first question that comes to mind here is whether there should be a pantheon for Spelljammer proper, one for each setting, or a mix of both (which I would prefer).

I think it would be neat for SJ to have its own pantheon, with Celestian as a huge part of that. Then maybe some other universal deities that show up from setting to setting.

Perhaps introduce the concept of deities who have different avatars based on the setting. For example, Pelor and Lathander could be avatars of a greater sun god.

Just various random thoughts.
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Re: 4th ed conversion, clerical & god stuff thread

Post by Jaid » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:26 pm

well, i don't know about an "SJ Pantheon" as such, but certainly i think certain deities should be more prominent in wildspace (or the astral sea i guess, since we're talking 4th edition). a pantheon implies that the deities are sort of working together, or have some sort of common connection, such as the greyhawk pantheon or the krynnish pantheon or the elven pantheon and so forth. SJ has never really featured a unified pantheon as such, but it certainly has had deities with greater interest in spelljamming... they just don't necessarily work together ;)

as dragonhelm mentioned, celestian should figure rather prominently, but i would say Ptah should also be quite prominent. then we've got the celestial bureaucracy thing going from shou lung, plus possibly the polyglot faiths (which will probably be as simple as just introducing a feat that lets the cleric choose a different channel divinity power that could be granted by any member of the pantheon on a daily basis or something like that)

i suppose we could also consider figuring something out for the thri-kreen religion, but i'm inclined to think of that as being more along the lines of a system of beliefs rather than actually having a deity per se. not to mention we don't have much information on it (we might have to steal some flavor from thri-kreen of athas, and just base it on the way thri-kreen think)

i also think we should figure something out for dukagsh.

not too sure about having different avatars for one main deity being extremely widespread, but for some deities i think it is pretty much a requirement (i mean, really... takhisis and tiamat are just a *teensy* bit similar, dont'cha think? not to mention paladine and bahamut, the platinum dragons...)

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Re: 4th ed conversion, clerical & god stuff thread

Post by Azaghal » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:50 pm

I think there should be sphere/world setting normal Gods and then some overarching multisphere SJ specialty Gods. Definitely Celestian and Ptah for starters.
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Re: 4th ed conversion, clerical & god stuff thread

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:57 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:I think it would be neat for SJ to have its own pantheon, with Celestian as a huge part of that. Then maybe some other universal deities that show up from setting to setting.
Hmm. It depends on if you think a 4e SJCG should convert Spelljammer to 4e rules or reboot it (Spellplague style).

I'd be inclined to stick with what you have already got, but extrapolate in more detail. For example, we know that clerics of Celestian regain spells normally in all* crystal spheres. So why not consider** looking up all other gods that are said to travel through space and give them the same ability to go beyond their own crystal sphere.

* = I would be inclined to make that "almost all", so that the GM has the option to specifically create a homebrew sphere where the local gods attempt to shut out Celestian from travelling through wildspace.

** = I would suggest doing this on a case by case basis - not just making a one off decision for everything.

This might seem a bit like a pantheon (as their clerics could regain spells in any sphere, but the gods would be de-powered on any and all groundling worlds, so all the clerics would only gain full power in Wildspace.
Dragonhelm wrote:Perhaps introduce the concept of deities who have different avatars based on the setting. For example, Pelor and Lathander could be avatars of a greater sun god.
I'm not so sure I like that. It is very much like the Roman "your god is our god with another name" attitude. It might work OK for people who want to do a Planescape crossover and have 50 gods (instead of 5,000 gods) running the universe.

But if Pelor and Lathander are the same god, I would infer that clerics of one could regain spells from the other god...without the normal penalties.
Jaid wrote:well, i don't know about an "SJ Pantheon" as such, but certainly i think certain deities should be more prominent in wildspace (or the astral sea i guess, since we're talking 4th edition). a pantheon implies that the deities are sort of working together, or have some sort of common connection, such as the greyhawk pantheon or the krynnish pantheon or the elven pantheon and so forth. SJ has never really featured a unified pantheon as such, but it certainly has had deities with greater interest in spelljamming... they just don't necessarily work together ;)
The way I see it the "groundling deities" don't care too much about space. Don't get me wrong - I think they care about the people on all the worlds*** within their sphere, but Wildspace, itself, is a bit like a "sea". And groundling gods should see spacefaring ships in a similar way to the way they see seafaring ships.

*** = Apart from any deities that are specific to certain geographical areas. They might only care about one planet.

As for the Atral Sea thing. That seems more of a Planejammer thing. That could easily be the way that spelljamming ships travel across the Astral Plane, and the crystal spheres could be retained as the Material Plane. That is an area where you need to decide on updating or rebooting. But I wouldn't want to see the 3e SJCS done as a reboot.
Jaid wrote:as dragonhelm mentioned, celestian should figure rather prominently, but i would say Ptah should also be quite prominent. then we've got the celestial bureaucracy thing going from shou lung, plus possibly the polyglot faiths (which will probably be as simple as just introducing a feat that lets the cleric choose a different channel divinity power that could be granted by any member of the pantheon on a daily basis or something like that)
Ptah should be as prominent, if not more prominent than Celestian, because Ptah is in the AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set and Celestian was brought into the product line later.

Ptah's clerics have that really annoying Roman-like habit of telling everybody that their head-deity is Ptah in disguise. So I figure that 4e religions should be as annoyed by this as 2e ones. But Ptah himself, may well get along fine with Celestian.
Jaid wrote:i suppose we could also consider figuring something out for the thri-kreen religion, but i'm inclined to think of that as being more along the lines of a system of beliefs rather than actually having a deity per se. not to mention we don't have much information on it (we might have to steal some flavor from thri-kreen of athas, and just base it on the way thri-kreen think)
As I recally, there were a number of non-deity religions in The Complete Priest's Handbook. There is no reason why some stuff like that could not be used in certain area of the SJ universe. You just have to decide how you want this stuff to work. Here is where waiting for other campaign settings to get made might be helpful. If any of the settings allow for clerics who gain power from unusual sources, the same should apply across wildspace and the phlogiston.
Jaid wrote:i also think we should figure something out for dukagsh.
Night Druid did a pretty good job with Dukagsh. I think he just needs a bit of a polish and you are good to go.
Jaid wrote:not too sure about having different avatars for one main deity being extremely widespread, but for some deities i think it is pretty much a requirement (i mean, really... takhisis and tiamat are just a *teensy* bit similar, dont'cha think? not to mention paladine and bahamut, the platinum dragons...)
I really don't like this thing, but it does seem to be the way that FRCG is doing it. What have other 4e settings done?
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Re: 4th ed conversion, clerical & god stuff thread

Post by AuldDragon » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:23 am

Jaid wrote:i also think we should figure something out for dukagsh.
Dragon Magazine Annual #1 (1996) has some great info on Dukagsh. His priests are essentially multiclassed mage/priests. Lots of good fluff that can be used in any edition, too.
Jaid wrote:not too sure about having different avatars for one main deity being extremely widespread, but for some deities i think it is pretty much a requirement (i mean, really... takhisis and tiamat are just a *teensy* bit similar, dont'cha think? not to mention paladine and bahamut, the platinum dragons...)
Nothing says a deity can't split and become two nearly identical gods or the overgod of a sphere didn't duplicate an existing god. :)

IMO, it's better to leave it as a "mystery of the universe" and let individual DMs decide so you aren't stepping on any toes.

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