Flying Ships

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Re: Flying Ships

Postby writermonk » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:57 pm

Mulsiphix wrote:
writermonk wrote:Entire Post
:o Having somebody who has played within and written content for Talislanta versus just looking up information in the books (me) really is the more desirable route to go. I am humbled by your knowledge writermonk :shock:


Well, twenty years of playing Tal will do that. ^_^

Well, waiting anxiously as it travels from publisher to publisher and hoping for new material, devouring every single book that comes out, then waiting anxiously for more for twenty years, will do that. :mrgreen:
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Ships of Mystara

Postby Mulsiphix » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:03 am

These are all of the Mystara ships that I could dig up. All of these images were taken from the Champions of Mystara line of books, specifically; Heroes of the Princess Ark, Designer's Manual, Explorer's Manual, and an unknown product that contained color images of flying vessles, multiple maps, and dungeon/gaming tiles. In my opinion these ships closer resemble ships of SpellJammer than anything found in Talislanta, with the exception of the Man-O-War and the Alphatian Yacht. Click on any of the images below to see their full sized counterparts.

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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Azaghal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:45 am

This is a great find Mulisiphix, true the majority of the ships are more like Spelljammer styling rather than windships. Which is one of the reasons I like the windships, I want to expand the number and style of ships for spelljammer. I would plan on the majority of the ships in a Talislanta sphere as being windship style.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby writermonk » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:15 pm

Azaghal wrote:This is a great find Mulisiphix, true the majority of the ships are more like Spelljammer styling rather than windships. Which is one of the reasons I like the windships, I want to expand the number and style of ships for spelljammer. I would plan on the majority of the ships in a Talislanta sphere as being windship style.


One of the Talislanta fan-sites (sorta, it's more of a guy's page with stuff for his campaign) Freefrog's Windshipyards of Nizrin (or the like - do a search for freefrog + windship and you'll hit it) has some beautifully drawn little windship sketches with non-traditional ship designs. I've used and re-used the pics from there for ships over the ages.

I really like the forward catch-sail design, for example. Windships like that prominantly feature in my games.
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Re: Ships of Mystara

Postby Chimpman » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:21 pm

Mulsiphix wrote:These are all of the Mystara ships that I could dig up. All of these images were taken from the Champions of Mystara line of books, specifically; Heroes of the Princess Ark, Designer's Manual, Explorer's Manual, and an unknown product that contained color images of flying vessles, multiple maps, and dungeon/gaming tiles. In my opinion these ships closer resemble ships of SpellJammer than anything found in Talislanta, with the exception of the Man-O-War and the Alphatian Yacht. Click on any of the images below to see their full sized counterparts.

You found pretty much most of the images I think of when I think Mystaran Skyship. The color images also come from Champions - they were done very much in the style of Spelljammer. Most of them are one off ships however, aside from the Alphatian Mon-O-War and Yacht which probably represent the most prevalent type of skyships in the setting.

Oostdock zeppelins would be found in the Hollow World, and Heldannic Warbirds might also be becoming more prevalent in the outer world (and the solar system beyond as they are beginning space missions).

Thanks for posting these!
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby writermonk » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:53 pm

Agreed. Many thanks.

If I could draw worth a darn, I'd be flinging all manner of assorted designs at you, but alas, my skills at sketching are laughable.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Mulsiphix » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:46 pm

writermonk wrote:One of the Talislanta fan-sites, Freefrog's Windshipyards of Nizrinhas, some beautifully drawn little windship sketches with non-traditional ship designs.
Here is a link to the site. For convenience here are all the ships FreeFrog has created.

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Re: Flying Ships

Postby writermonk » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:19 pm

Yeah. The characters in my current game are crew aboard something like a cross between the Azul and the Black Wind.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Azaghal » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:44 am

Awesome! Thanks for posting these Mulisiphix! Now to make deckplans and through spelljamming helms on. :lol: Given the design of most of the windships it doesn't look like they are really meant to land on sea or air, is that accurate?
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Havard » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:40 am

I love all of these flying ship images :)

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Re: Flying Ships

Postby writermonk » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:04 pm

Azaghal wrote:Awesome! Thanks for posting these Mulisiphix! Now to make deckplans and through spelljamming helms on. :lol: Given the design of most of the windships it doesn't look like they are really meant to land on sea or air, is that accurate?


Right. Windships typically either rest on a stand (think a real world sailing ship up in dry-dock) or 'anchor' next to a tower, remaining airborne.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Azaghal » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:58 am

writermonk wrote:
Azaghal wrote:Awesome! Thanks for posting these Mulisiphix! Now to make deckplans and through spelljamming helms on. :lol: Given the design of most of the windships it doesn't look like they are really meant to land on sea or air, is that accurate?


Right. Windships typically either rest on a stand (think a real world sailing ship up in dry-dock) or 'anchor' next to a tower, remaining airborne.


A drydock or cradle makes perfect sense, fits with Spelljammer`s approach as well. (Ships that can only land at sea use cradles in dry landing areas) Personally, I love the anchored levitating approach, it just tickles me right.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Big Mac » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:03 pm

Mulsiphix wrote:
Big Mac wrote:This is the first I have heard of the airborne troop carriers. Are they just windships with a lot of marines onboard, or are they something else?

This is a difficult question to answer as most information regarding windships lacks a lot of detail. Now the Riding The Sky: A Guide To Windships book shed quite a bit of light on the subject. Unfortunately it is very lacking on Windships of War which what I believe airborne troop carriers refers to. I say this because of the size difference between a A Windship of War (military vessels exceeding 150 feet in length, and requiring a crew of up to 150 seasoned airmen.) and the next smallest ship class, the Windship (larger craft, 50 or so feet in length, crewed by anywhere from 15 to 30 airmen). To further your education, here are the windship images from A Guide To Windships; note I have no picture of a Windship of War :cry:. Click to enlarge, full sized images are 1024px wide and the height varies;


Wow. There is tons of stuff here.

Looks like there are actually three designs for Windships of War:

These two:
Image

And the ship numbered 15 in this image:
Image

It is interesting to see other designs, as it makes it seem more "real". I know that the really big ship is the Moonstar, and the smaller Windship of War beside it would seem to have been designed by the same shipwright. But the number 15 ship, looks like it is slightly less well designed for ramming and a lot better for "drop from above" tactics and troop dropping tactics than its sisters. I would almost say that they were three types of Windship of War ships, with their own special purposes.

EDIT: I like the contrast of the up and down masts and the up and two down masts. That has got to change the handling of the ships.

Talking of tactics, I find it very interesting that Talislanta's Windship combat is mostly above/below and combat in Spelljammer is mostly done on a flat plane (unless you use the later 3D-combat rules from the War Captian's Companion boxed set.).

Mulsiphix wrote:
Azaghal wrote:Really we need to get some of the people from the yahoo group over here.
This forum will be announced officially in the news article for 6/28. Already done and scheduled :P . I'm really hopeful that some other folks will start to visit regularly. Although if not I'm completely dedicated to answering all the questions I am mentally competent/capable of :lol:


At the moment, we are talking a tiny bit more about "raiding Talislanta for other settings", than we are talking about "using other settings to boost Talislanta". I think this forum needs to be equally useful to Tal fans if you want to get more to join in. But I think we defiantly have stuff to offer when it comes to flying ships.

Those Mystaran Skyships would be very interesting to a Talislanta GM who wants more Windship designs. I don't know if they would need to be modified.

Spelljammer ships could also work, although some of them are radically different to Windships. Some of Spelljammer's designs are based on sea-ships. They would probably slot into a Talislanta game well. There are also insect-like ships, spider-like ships and ships based on the forms of other creatures. Some look great and others look unintentionally comical (which is really disaointing when those ships are supposed to evoke fear in the in-character people who see them). So I think you would want to search through them and decide which to use. Beyond the Moons (Spelljammer's answer to Talislanta.com) has got a page called Ships of Wildspace. There is also a 3D artist called Silverblade who makes models of SJ ships then renders 3D pictures of them. Plenty of stuff to raid there.

Spelljammer also has that gravity-plane thing, that kicks in when the ships go above a world's atmosphere. (If you used that rule, from Spelljammer, it would make the crew in the undernest fall down onto the bottom of the ship's hull, if the ship went into space. It would also turn the bottom deck or the bottom two decks turn upside down in space. But crewmen could also walk on the bottom of the Windship.) A Tal GM might want to ignore that effect, or sneak it in to "suprise" ships that go into space. The main thing to bear in mind is that SJ ships are designed for this, so if you want to ignore it, you might need to tweak their designs. For example, a bloatfly (a lizardman egg incubating ship that flies near to suns to warm up eggs) has top and bottom weapons (like a Windship) but the bottom weapon pits are designed to work with the reverse gravity that kicks in in wildspace and the crew could not use them in a battle in the air.

The Wyrmstone campaign setting also has something called Highsailing and their rules for it might be pretty interesting. Wyrmstone literally is about stones that are recovered from dragons that die of old age (the wyrmstones the setting is named after). They keep the Highsailing ships in the sky.

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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Chimpman » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:17 pm

Big Mac wrote:EDIT: I like the contrast of the up and down masts and the up and two down masts. That has got to change the handling of the ships.

I agree. I was thinking you could have even more mast configurations than are shown here. There's the "I" mast configuration (up and down), and the inverted "Y" configuration, but I assume you could also have a "V" (as the Princess Ark), "Y", and "X" type configuration. Each should bring with it, its own benefits and problems.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Azaghal » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:53 pm

Chimpman wrote:
Big Mac wrote:EDIT: I like the contrast of the up and down masts and the up and two down masts. That has got to change the handling of the ships.

I agree. I was thinking you could have even more mast configurations than are shown here. There's the "I" mast configuration (up and down), and the inverted "Y" configuration, but I assume you could also have a "V" (as the Princess Ark), "Y", and "X" type configuration. Each should bring with it, its own benefits and problems.


Figuring out how to deal with the various mast angles could be a lot of fun, I don`t know if there is anyone on The Piazza with the basic sailing knowledge to help with it, Walter Jon Williams would be great if we could locate him, his 1st game he developed was "Privateers and Gentlemen" set in da da the Age of Sail!
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Big Mac » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:48 am

Azaghal wrote:
Chimpman wrote:
Big Mac wrote:EDIT: I like the contrast of the up and down masts and the up and two down masts. That has got to change the handling of the ships.

I agree. I was thinking you could have even more mast configurations than are shown here. There's the "I" mast configuration (up and down), and the inverted "Y" configuration, but I assume you could also have a "V" (as the Princess Ark), "Y", and "X" type configuration. Each should bring with it, its own benefits and problems.


Figuring out how to deal with the various mast angles could be a lot of fun, I don`t know if there is anyone on The Piazza with the basic sailing knowledge to help with it, Walter Jon Williams would be great if we could locate him, his 1st game he developed was "Privateers and Gentlemen" set in da da the Age of Sail!


I'm no expert, but here is a picture of the bowsprit of the HMS Victory:
Image

(Click to see a page full of pictures of the ship.)

Now it seems to me that if deck hands can deal with a vertical mast and a more horizontal bowsprit, they could deal with any sort of angle in between.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Mulsiphix » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:34 am

Holy Mother of Pearl, God bless the man who invented the mast and its intricate webbings :o
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Azaghal » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:38 pm

Mulsiphix wrote:Holy Mother of Pearl, God bless the man who invented the mast and its intricate webbings :o


Lol! Hundreds/thousands of years went into humans being able sail all the oceans of the earth now we must take them to the ultimate ocean, that between the stars!
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Adam Black » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:42 pm

Azaghal wrote:Figuring out how to deal with the various mast angles could be a lot of fun, I don`t know if there is anyone on The Piazza with the basic sailing knowledge to help with it, Walter Jon Williams would be great if we could locate him, his 1st game he developed was "Privateers and Gentlemen" set in da da the Age of Sail!


The original reason for the "up and under" masts in Riding the Sky was because my brother and I were playing a game of Tal, and my character was on a windship. My brother the GM says, "Okay, you look over the side of the ship and see..."

"Wing-shaped sails," I interrupted. "Look at the picture in the book!" (we were playing with the 3rd edition book)

Well, that just wouldn't do in my brother's game, so we sat down and figured out an alternative. He liked the mast configuration that ended up in the book, because the idea of windsailors crawling all over the rigging both over and under the boat meant he could do all sorts of crazy GM stuff.

I tried to keep Riding the Sky as factual as possible in regards to how sailing ships actually work. I'm a big fan of tall ships in real life, although I've never actually done any real sailing. However, my art and writing skills may not have been fully up to the task at the time. I'm happy that people are still getting so much out of that book, though. :D

One of these days it would be fun to do some more windship illustrations, but I don't know when that might happen. It's all about finding the time nowadays. :lol:

For the record: The ship on the cover of RtS is the one my character used in my brother's Tal game. It's also the picture that got me the job illustrating Tal. Funny thing is: I inked it with a Bic ball-point pen. :lol:
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby writermonk » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:54 pm

Woo! Welcome Adam! Hope to see you around here often.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Mulsiphix » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:03 pm

Welcome Adam!! :mrgreen:

Adam Black wrote:Well, that just wouldn't do in my brother's game, so we sat down and figured out an alternative. He liked the mast configuration that ended up in the book, because the idea of windsailors crawling all over the rigging both over and under the boat meant he could do all sorts of crazy GM stuff.
That is hilariously awesome :o :lol:

Adam Black wrote:For the record: The ship on the cover of RtS is the one my character used in my brother's Tal game. It's also the picture that got me the job illustrating Tal. Funny thing is: I inked it with a Bic ball-point pen. :lol:
Lol! Very impressive :D
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Dave L » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:46 pm

That's a really cool story.

"We don't want to do it this way in our game, so let's find another way to make it work."

Also - welcome! :)
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Azaghal » Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:25 am

That`s an awesome story Adam and welcome to the Piazza!! *whistles at Havard* Another celeb has joined us.
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Hugin » Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:21 pm

Great little story, Adam! Welcome to The Piazza!
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Re: Flying Ships

Postby Havard » Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:51 pm

Welcome to the Piazza Adam! :)

I would love to see more Flying Ship illustrations. That is my favorite aspect of Talislanta.

Azaghal wrote:That`s an awesome story Adam and welcome to the Piazza!! *whistles at Havard* Another celeb has joined us.


Cool, I have added Mr Black to the Celebs list. Let me know if the blurb is acceptable :)

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