Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Rebuilding the world in the wake of the Great Rain of Fire.

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Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Chimpman » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:52 pm

I wanted to start a discussion about how and where the two timelines (BC 2300 and GazF) mesh well together as well as about where they don't mesh so well together. The purpose of this thread isn't necessarily to "change" either of the timelines (although I may change some of my own ideas if I can tease out events from GazF that I think might be fun or cool to use/build on).

Rather, the primary purpose should be to highlight areas of similarity and dissimilarity so that folks intending to use both settings together (or at least parts thereof) know where the two settings align, and where they don't. The secondary purpose (just as important in my mind) is of course, to continue generating new ideas for BC 2300 (and perhaps for GazF as well).

To limit the scope of the project I've been looking at the GazF timelines from pre-GRoF to about BC 1000, but we can expand that as needed. I'll create separate posts for each of the GazF timelines that I examine, but I'd love to hear the thoughts of others as well - especially as my knowledge of GazF is cursory at best.
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Chimpman » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:01 pm

GazF1 - Wendar

GazF1 wrote:BC 3000: The Great Rain of Fire

BC 2600: Carnuilh tribes entered Wendar and Denagoth.


These elves are clans who did not flee underground following the GRoF. They must have been farther away from the blast or had other means with which to protect themselves.

GazF1 wrote:BC 2500: The second exodus of southern elves. Genalleth recruits adherents.


This puts some of the Wendarian elves in the Second Migration (under Genalleth).

GazF1 wrote:BC 2400: Carnuilh tribes on the plateau were destroyed or absorbed by early Antalians, but those in Wendar fled to the Midlands to avoid the glacial movements.


Having the Antalians in the area absorb or destroy the “northern” elves could be in line with the BC 2300 timelines. The elves in this region would be scattered and fragmented. Many of them might ally with forces from Antalia or Grondheim, and would run periodic raids on the Shimmering Lands or Urzud. The Geffronell elves would still be in a magical slumber during these times.

This is also the time of the Vulcanian Catastrophe, which would have sent clouds of ash to darken the sky across the globe for some period of time - possibly causing all kinds of havoc with agriculture and food harvesting. This could have been a trigger for Antalian aggression of the time.

GazF1 wrote:BC 2300: Genalleth was secretly slain after his expedition through the Addakian Sound joined with Ilsundal at the foot of the Black Mountains. He was replaced by Enoreth.


The foot of the Black Mountains is in the Gulf of Hule, correct? This would mean that by BC 2300, Ilsundal’s migration had already made its way through the Savage Coast and to the far extends of the KW, and that the BC 2500 migration cut across the Izondian Sea to meet up with them, which shouldn't be any different in the BC 2300 timeline.

GazF1 wrote:BC 2200: Enoreth’s group became separated from Ilsundal near the humanoid settlements. They turned northeast hugging the edge of a glacier.


This puts the elves in contact with beastmen/humanoids (probably) from Urzud (or at least related to it in some way). Could this separation from Ilsindal’s main group have been caused by some Urzud-Elven Returnists conflict?

GazF1 wrote:BC 2120: Genalleth elves crested the glacier and discovered an unwelcoming valley filled with treacherous moors and powerful monsters. They turned south along the Mengul Mountains.


Mengul Mts are in Norwold. What/where is the valley that they find?

GazF1 wrote:BC 2050: Genalleth elves stumbled into the fledgling valley forests north of Glantri. Local Antalians helped them adapt to their new home.


This would still be within the timeframe of confrontations with the Shimmering Lands. Antalians and elves could very well work together against a common foe. This puts the Antalians in Glantri circa BC 2000, which might mean that they have driven Grondheim out of the area by then.

This is also the proposed time for the Mogrethian Flood.

GazF1 wrote:BC 1900: Antalians disappear from the Genalleth Valley.


Why? This is very close to the time when a group of Deep Elves return to the surface (BC 1900). Is it possible that the Deep Elves are responsible for driving the humans out? Is this related to the plague released by Idris (even though tat comes 900 years later)?

GazF1 wrote:BC 1800: Genalleth elves discovered the Geffronell elves of Denagoth.


Geffronell elves would be what I have been referring to as the “Northern Elves”. They would have been in the area since the GRoF. GazF2 has them in a magical slumber from BC 2900 to BC 1900, so this particular clan of elves wouldn’t play a direct role in BC 2300, but there presence might still make some kind of impact to the folks in that era. Magical slumber is also a great way to escape the Wasting, and something we haven’t explored yet in BC 2300!

GazF1 wrote:BC 1725: Settlements in Lothenar Forest. Enoreth united the three northern elven communities.

BC 1721: Akkila Khan’s forces swept western Wendar enroute to Glantri and the Ethengar Steppes.

BC 1700: The Glantrian catastrophe dropped the temperature in Genalleth and produced a strange disease that drained physical strength and memories. The Elvenstar restored the elven groups and later the humans of Denagoth.

BC 1688: The elven nation dissolved upon Enoreth’s death.

BC 1600: Relations between elves and Denagothians strained.

BC 1500: Plateau elves settled habitable land west of the Mengul Mountains. There they discovered primitive humans in the far west who regarded the elves as powerful earth spirits.

BC 1300: Lothenar elves established the realm of Forenath south of the Muil River. It contained both elven and human villages.

BC 1200: Reclusive Lothenar clans settled the northern town of Soreth.

BC 1100: Forenath humans adopted the elvish language and culture. Minor Genalleth strongholds were established south of the Muil River.

BC 1000: Fleeing Nithian encroachment, Antalian tribes arrived in the Genalleth Valley.

None of these events would seem to impact the BC 2300 setting as it currently stands.
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Seer of Yhog » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:22 pm

Chimpman wrote:
GazF1 wrote:BC 2120: Genalleth elves crested the glacier and discovered an unwelcoming valley filled with treacherous moors and powerful monsters. They turned south along the Mengul Mountains.


Mengul Mts are in Norwold. What/where is the valley that they find?


I could be wrong, but I think OD was referring to the Northern Wildlands, whose eastern border is marked by the Menguls.
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Chimpman » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:37 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:
Chimpman wrote:
GazF1 wrote:BC 2120: Genalleth elves crested the glacier and discovered an unwelcoming valley filled with treacherous moors and powerful monsters. They turned south along the Mengul Mountains.


Mengul Mts are in Norwold. What/where is the valley that they find?


I could be wrong, but I think OD was referring to the Northern Wildlands, whose eastern border is marked by the Menguls.

Ok, that does make sense.
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Carnuilh

Postby Gecko » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:43 am

I thought the Carnuilh were humans, not elves. Do I have that wrong?

Edit: looked it up, and yes they are humans (unless the GazF line changes that), aka the western Dunharians, Dunharians being the M-Celtic groups of Mystara. The Carnuilh are noted as being related to the Robrennian's and likely the midland barbarians - and, I think, the Renatic (sp?) population of the northern wilderlands (and etc.) is the result of the mixing of the Carnuilh and Antalian peoples, if I follow the various ethnography projects correctly.
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby OldDawg » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:23 am

I will try to post the combined timeline for this period in a bit. Till then, here are responses to comments/questions asked:

Chimpman wrote:
GazF1 wrote:BC 2600: Carnuilh tribes entered Wendar and Denagoth.


These elves are clans who did not flee underground following the GRoF. They must have been farther away from the blast or had other means with which to protect themselves.



As Gecko responded, the Carnuilh are humans from the long-standing fanonical M-Celt group that accounts for Robrenn on the Savage Coast.

GazF1 wrote:BC 2500: The second exodus of southern elves. Genalleth recruits adherents.


This puts some of the Wendarian elves in the Second Migration (under Genalleth).


All Wendarian elves (Genalleth) are from the second migration.

GazF1 wrote:BC 2400: Carnuilh tribes on the plateau were destroyed or absorbed by early Antalians, but those in Wendar fled to the Midlands to avoid the glacial movements.


Having the Antalians in the area absorb or destroy the “northern” elves could be in line with the BC 2300 timelines. ....


Humans, not elves. See comment above.

This [the Vulcanian Catastrophe] could have been a trigger for Antalian aggression of the time.


While it could be that the destruction of Vulcania had global climatic implications, Antalian expansion was well underway before this event.

GazF1 wrote:BC 2300: Genalleth was secretly slain after his expedition through the Addakian Sound joined with Ilsundal at the foot of the Black Mountains. He was replaced by Enoreth.


The foot of the Black Mountains is in the Gulf of Hule, correct? ...


Correct: foot of Black Mountains = the Gulf of Hule region (or more precisely, the eastern Kavja foothills). Travel dates are entirely consist with canonical references. the second group of elves more like came up the Serpent Peninsula rather the Izondian Sea itself. The main exodus went travelled between the Black Mountains and the Adri Varma plateau before hanging a left (thus Glantrian elves naturally break off to their position, as do Sheyallia, Meditor and Verdier on the SP, and savage coast elves around the Gulf of Hule).

GazF1 wrote:BC 2200: Enoreth’s group became separated from Ilsundal near the humanoid settlements. They turned northeast hugging the edge of a glacier.


This puts the elves in contact with beastmen/humanoids (probably) from Urzud (or at least related to it in some way). Could this separation from Ilsindal’s main group have been caused by some Urzud-Elven Returnists conflict?



Precisely. Ilsundal was following a trail of "Outpost Cities" erected in the aftermath of the second beastman crusade to reach the Sylvan Realm. The region around "Ice Station Urzud" was dangerous, and the Genalleth elves were forced to break east while everyone else went west.

Mengul Mts are in Norwold. What/where is the valley that they find?


Mengul Mts. are U-shaped and cup the Denagothian Plateau on both the west and east. This is reference to the western branch that separates Denagoth from the Wildlands.

GazF1 wrote:BC 2050: Genalleth elves stumbled into the fledgling valley forests north of Glantri. Local Antalians helped them adapt to their new home.


This would still be within the timeframe of confrontations with the Shimmering Lands. Antalians and elves could very well work together against a common foe. This puts the Antalians in Glantri circa BC 2000, which might mean that they have driven Grondheim out of the area by then.

As would be revealed in the Heldann gazetteer, these Antalians were part of the Vanitar (= Vanir) subgroup. Frey - who is associated with elves in RW Norse mythology - was involved with this encounter. Most of these specific Antalians would eventually move west, becoming another source of the Midland barbarians.

This is also the proposed time for the Mogrethian Flood.


With the extensive glacial movements of this era, a mass flood is not out of the question. Particularly if some glaciers were plugging a massive build up of melt water.

GazF1 wrote:BC 1900: Antalians disappear from the Genalleth Valley.


Why? ...


Glacial migration patterns and theoretical environmental impacts played a *MAJOR* role in setting up the background for GazF, all the way back in Realm of Wendar. [I have century by century maps]. Wendar simply suffered a glacial restrengthening that century, and the Antalians split for safer lands to the west, leaving the elves alone in their pocket of the Valley.

GazF1 wrote:BC 1800: Genalleth elves discovered the Geffronell elves of Denagoth.


Geffronell elves would be what I have been referring to as the “Northern Elves” ... Magical slumber is also a great way to escape the Wasting, and something we haven’t explored yet in BC 2300!


Yes Geffronell elves would be "Northern Elves", if I infer that to mean elves living the the "vicinity" of Blackmoor pre-GRoF. Don't overlook that the slumber was induced by the fey Shurmaleigh - It might be overlooked in the Gaz, but there is an undercurrent of good and dark sidhe positioning the elves and humans of Denagoth (a Yoda or Obi Wan vs an ancient Sith Corruptor ==> light elves and Dark elves, including Idris).

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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Chimpman » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:06 pm

OldDawg wrote:I will try to post the combined timeline for this period in a bit. Till then, here are responses to comments/questions asked:

Cool! Thanks OldDawg, your comments are really helpful! I've already gone through each of the GazF products and snipped out the timelines (and some associated History as the Immortals Know It) sections and am going through them one by one. A unified timeline would be very helpful - it's something I planned on pulling together anyway.

[Crud - I had a boatload of notes in a Google Doc and now it appears that I've lost everything I was working on yesterday. I'm not happy about this :evil: ]

OldDawg wrote:As Gecko responded, the Carnuilh are humans from the long-standing fanonical M-Celt group that accounts for Robrenn on the Savage Coast.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. How many different human groups are in the area at this time? We have the Valoin, Carnuilh, Hagommerians (not sure where they come from yet), Antalians (Vanitar, and others?), proto-Ethengarians, and Valharians (are they related to the Antalians in any way?)
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby OldDawg » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:20 pm

I knew I had posted this timeline stuff before:

GazF combined history thread, here.

It goes up through 1700 BC, I believe.
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby OldDawg » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:12 pm

Chimpman wrote:Ok, thanks for the clarification. How many different human groups are in the area at this time? We have the Valoin, Carnuilh, Hagommerians (not sure where they come from yet), Antalians (Vanitar, and others?), proto-Ethengarians, and Valharians (are they related to the Antalians in any way?)


Okay, going off of memory, this is the basic break down of earlier human ethnicities in the GazF1-10 books (and a few backgrounders) [specific dates not given here- I'll have to get back to you on who's around up through 2300]:

Northern Neathar (NN) Racial Stock:
  • Valharian = NN/Blackmoorian survivors on the Norwold coast/Wyrmsteeth during the "Gamma World/Thundarr the Barbarian" phase of post-GRoF Norwold, mostly female population (not Amazonian, just a skewed sex ratio in the population), absorbed by Antalians and Valoin
  • Antalians = NN bronze age culture origination around the Ironroot Mountains of Oceansend; several distinct subgroups, including
    • Aesinar - based around Oceansend and the islands (most connected by landbridges or smaller island chains)
    • Vanitar - southern group of Antalians, may cultural overlaps with the Carnuilh-related peoples.
    • Barbarians of the Denagothian Plateau, eventually became the tribes of Avien
    • Barbarians of the Icreach

Central Eastern Neathar (CEN) Racial Stock:
  • Valoin - originally from southern Alphatia or northern Isle of Dawn, but post-GRoF migrated into the Oceansend coastal region; progenitor group of
    • Littonians
    • Lietuvans
    • the Oceansend swamp people, and
    • barbarian tribes such as the Viaskodans

Central Western Neathar (CWN) Racial Stock:
  • Carnuilh tribes - post-GRoF, moved across the Isle of Dawn landbridge to lower Norwold/northern Known World, including: Landfall, Heldann, Wendar, Ethengar, Denagoth, the Northern Reaches, and possibly Darokin, Glantri, and Ylaruam; frequently displaced by glacial movements and/or Antalian or proto-Ethengar aggression.
  • Barbarians of the Denagothian Plateau - absorbed by Antalians
  • Hagommerians - a CWN/Antalian group northwest of Denagoth proper
  • Northern Wildlands humans (possibly CWN/Antalian), would give rise to Murians and Renatics
  • Roags - CWN/Antalian people of the Hill and Dale north of Denagoth (Ghyr, the Western Alliance)
  • Denagothians - CWN/Antalian/Brute (maybe even a touch of orc) people

Denagothian Brutes - descendants of the beastmen and humans, pressed into northern Denagoth and the Icereach after the second Blackmoor Beastmen Crusade

Oltec/Neathar Mix Racial Stock:
  • Proto-Ethengarians - originally migrated from ex-slave communities on Bellisaria and Isle of Dawn, up the Isle to the Helskan landbridge, down into Heldann and then Ethengar
  • Proto-Nithians - similar group that settled the coast of Northern Reaches and Ylaruam
  • Proto-Alasiyans - similar group that remained on the Isle of Dawn
  • Saamari - indigenous to Brun, appeared in the early kingdom along the Borean Tier, would eventually migrate east to establish Kaarjala
  • Vaarana - more nomadic cousins of the Saamari, they migrated east at a later date
  • Shonaks - an Oltec or Oltec/Neathar tribe that expanded in the newly developing Arctic tundra, travelled across the north, crossing Borea and into Norwold. Today, tribes can be found north of the Western Alliance, along the northern coast, and throughout Norwold's north territory, clashing with Kaarjala

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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Hugin » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:33 pm

Very useful info, OD! Thanks muchly! :D
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Chimpman » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:03 pm

Yup, thanks again OldDawg! I'm still in the process of digesting all this info, but it really does help :cool:
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Hugin » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:29 pm

Hey OldDawg, would you be able to make some comments on this ethnography as in compares to canon over in this thread: [GazH] Ethnography workshop? If you are able it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Havard » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:58 pm

My latest blog entry about the Sleeping Ones attempts to connect some elements from the GazF timeline such as the Brutemen Wars, with the Outer Beings, Carnifex as well as Blackmoor elements like the Egg of Coot, the Mage Wars and the Sar Aigu...

Not sure if any of this would tie into the BC2300 line?

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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Chimpman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:55 pm

Havard wrote:My latest blog entry about the Sleeping Ones attempts to connect some elements from the GazF timeline such as the Brutemen Wars, with the Outer Beings, Carnifex as well as Blackmoor elements like the Egg of Coot, the Mage Wars and the Sar Aigu...

Not sure if any of this would tie into the BC2300 line?

I think it could. I think it could also tie into Bruce's recent work on Denwarf-Hurgon (where something deep in the cavers is/has corrupted a portion of the dwarven population into beings known as the "Shadow Dwarves".

Also the Karlheig dwarves of the Shimmering Lands are linked to other worldly powers - possibly the Outer Beings (though they also have ties to the kopru). Hmmm... I'm wondering if it would make more sense to switch over references to the kopru and replace them with Servitors of the Egg/the Sleeping Ones. Regardless, it will take a bit more thought, but this is definitely a direction I like.

There are also other areas that could be tied to the Egg of Coot and its servitors (and after only 700 years, many of them could still be active). Seer's precursors to the Orzafeth wizards in Alphatia might have some connection to them - I know he has something planned... but I'm not quite sure what it is yet ;). Of course Mogreth (or at least some of its populace) might also have contact with such powers.

Another similar power (and one that we've spoken of briefly in other threads) is Zargon. I think even in BC 2300 he is imprisoned... but that doesn't mean he can't have an effect on the outside world :twisted:
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Havard » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:57 am

Chimpman wrote:I think it could. I think it could also tie into Bruce's recent work on Denwarf-Hurgon (where something deep in the cavers is/has corrupted a portion of the dwarven population into beings known as the "Shadow Dwarves".


Oh, that fits very well...

Also the Karlheig dwarves of the Shimmering Lands are linked to other worldly powers - possibly the Outer Beings (though they also have ties to the kopru). Hmmm... I'm wondering if it would make more sense to switch over references to the kopru and replace them with Servitors of the Egg/the Sleeping Ones. Regardless, it will take a bit more thought, but this is definitely a direction I like.


According to James Mishler, the Kopru are also connected to the Outer Beings, so it would fit either way.

There are also other areas that could be tied to the Egg of Coot and its servitors (and after only 700 years, many of them could still be active). Seer's precursors to the Orzafeth wizards in Alphatia might have some connection to them - I know he has something planned... but I'm not quite sure what it is yet ;). Of course Mogreth (or at least some of its populace) might also have contact with such powers.

Another similar power (and one that we've spoken of briefly in other threads) is Zargon. I think even in BC 2300 he is imprisoned... but that doesn't mean he can't have an effect on the outside world :twisted:


Zargon is perfect.

Something that may not have been clear in my article is that the Great Burrowers (Hollow World) are also among this group that I call the Sleeping Ones.

James Mishler seems to have used the following hierarchy:

Entities From Between the Stars
Greater Servitors
Lesser Servitors (Neh-Thallgu, Beholders, Kopru etc)

I think that the Great Burrowers, The Egg of Coot, Zargon, Kartoeba (B10) and others could fit into the Greater Servitor category. Geoff coined the phrase Outer Beings, but I'm not sure if that term covers just the Entities From Between the Stars or whether it could also refer to some of the Greater Servitors. The Entities From Between the Stars are also connected to the Draeden incidentally.

All of these forces would be active throughout Mystara's history. In addition you have Immortals such as Thanatos who see the Outer Beings as a means to destroying the multiverse.




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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Seer of Yhog » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:47 pm

"Outer Being" refers to the Mystaran equivalent of the Great Old Ones (Yurgh-Thal, etc.) The Greater and Lesser Servitors are a separate category - most are creations of the Outer Beings, but others (such as the zhochal) are independent races that have chosen to worship them, much as humans et al worship the Immortals.
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Re: Reconciling BC 2300 and GazF Timelines

Postby Havard » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:41 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:"Outer Being" refers to the Mystaran equivalent of the Great Old Ones (Yurgh-Thal, etc.) The Greater and Lesser Servitors are a separate category - most are creations of the Outer Beings, but others (such as the zhochal) are independent races that have chosen to worship them, much as humans et al worship the Immortals.


Thanks for clarifying Geoff! That's the assumption I was working under so that's a good thing :)

I am currently working on some more elements that can be tied into all of this from the Blackmoor Era...

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