Where did they go?

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Where did they go?

Post by Chimpman » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:48 pm

One of the reasons I picked the BC 2300 time period to develop a setting around was frankly because I knew I would get to destroy everything I created ;). The Taymorans were foremost in my thoughts since I knew that they ended circa BC 1700 in a tumult of volcanoes and earthquakes, but when I realized that there must be other cultures ending around the same time that really settled things for me. It's a really liberating thing because it allowed me to go over the top if I wanted, without messing with the future of Mystara (the modern era). Anything I created that might not jive completely with the modern era could be wiped away in some disaster or another.

The Taymorans are destroyed circa BC 1750 to BC 1720 when their lands sink beneath the waves.

The Intua (Azcans living beneath the Great Plateau) are destroyed in the same timeframe (circa BC 1750) when the Plateau comes crashing down on their heads.

Adhuza will undergo massive changes during the same geological upheavals, though I suspect they would be able to hold on for a bit longer.

The dwarves are re-created in BC 1800 by Kagyar, so that was a good opportunity to introduce massive changes to their culture as well.

At some point along the way we also came up with the idea for a Great Flood to wipe out most of Mogreth in BC 2000, so that nation was taken care of as well.

Elves living the the Glantri region take themselves out in the LRoF in BC 1700.

But how, and when, do the other nations of this time period come to an end?

We know that at some point the Makers living on Teki-nuri-ria will be wiped out (by the Kara Kara?). They will probably also suffer some traumatic changes during the BC 1700s, but because their population is limited (and focused in key population centers) they should be able to weather those disasters if they are lucky. We also know that the Makers were masters of shadow magic, and I had the thought of tying them into the Hollow Moon city state of Maskelyne (which is a city of Shadows). My thought was that at some point the Makers would have turned to the shadow arts to protect themselves from a slave uprising (the aforementioned Kara Kara), and their magic would have run wild. They turn end up turning themselves into Shadows and then at some point some immortal takes an interest in them and moves them to the HM. But when does this happen? I'd like to be able to put dates on the following events:
- Makers create the Kara Kara
- The Kara Kara slaves revolt, overthrowing their masters and threatening to destroy them. In response the makers turn to shadow magic and end up destroying themselves.
- The Kara Kara are driven from the island (or at least portions of it) and the city of "Maskelyne" is run by Shadows.
- The Shadow city is threatened with destruction (perhaps by magic or various nearby folk banding together to destroy it) and is moved to the HM.

We've also spoke briefly about the giant kingdom of Grondheim, ruled by fey (the foremost among them being the Troll Queen). In BC 2300 trolls are not as they are in modern times. They are masters of secrets and magic, and have the ability to change their form and appearance. As the giant nation begins to fail however, the Troll Queen works potent magic to prevent her power loss. Her greed is transformed when her magic goes awry, cursing her and all her race to become slavering gluttonous beasts. But again, when does this happen? In this case I think I have the time frame narrowed down a bit.
- The giant nation begins to fail (here at least I'm thinking this starts happening around BC 1950 when a group of subterranean elves emerges in Glantri - these will eventually be the elves responsible for the LRoF). Also other groups of elves are stirring in this area at this time, and the Antalian culture is growing strong in the north as well.
- The Troll Queen works her magic and creates her curse.
- In BC 1700 giants, trolls and "gnolls" are driven into the northern reaches. I think I'd prefer if these trolls were already slavering monsters at this point.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Havard » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:29 pm

Interesting.
This timeline has many useful details on the period and especially the fate of the old dwarves.

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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Hugin » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:37 pm

Something that has crossed my mind lately is to have the Modrigswerg dwarves somehow involved/co-affected in the denigration of the trolls. But I don't know how to incorporate that into your timeline.

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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Dartamian » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:52 pm

Could the Makers be the ancestors of the Hollow World Stonecarvers from HWA2 Nightrage? If that was the case maybe they created the monuments and left before the Kara-Kara came along.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by night_druid » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:11 pm

I'd think it'd be pretty difficult to completely destroy a people. Survivors will likely be assimilated into nearby tribes/cultures.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:49 pm

Dartamian wrote:Could the Makers be the ancestors of the Hollow World Stonecarvers from HWA2 Nightrage? If that was the case maybe they created the monuments and left before the Kara-Kara came along.
The Makers- at least as depicted in their art and stonework in X6, are very alien looking in appearance (essentially like the Moai of Easter Island). While that doesn't necessarily rule it out- their artwork might not necessarily reflect their actual appearance- the Stonecarvers themselves are apparently human. It could make for an interesting story to tie them together somehow, though.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Dartamian » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:49 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:The Makers- at least as depicted in their art and stonework in X6, are very alien looking in appearance (essentially like the Moai of Easter Island). While that doesn't necessarily rule it out- their artwork might not necessarily reflect their actual appearance- the Stonecarvers themselves are apparently human. It could make for an interesting story to tie them together somehow, though.
Are you implying that the Moai were made by aliens?
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Hugin » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:10 am

night_druid wrote:I'd think it'd be pretty difficult to completely destroy a people. Survivors will likely be assimilated into nearby tribes/cultures.
In my mind, that "destroys" a people as defined by their culture.

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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:11 am

Hugin wrote:Something that has crossed my mind lately is to have the Modrigswerg dwarves somehow involved/co-affected in the denigration of the trolls. But I don't know how to incorporate that into your timeline.
Now that's an interesting idea. I do have some ideas for linking the dwarves to the BC 1700 LRoF, so I don't want to overuse that ploy... but still there might be something there. Hmmm... perhaps it's not even something that the dwarves are aware of or that they do purposely. The Gate of Light is tied into the Radiance and to ancient Blackmoor, and thinking back to Rob's work (Thorn's Chronicles) there is also some connection between Blackmoor and the Fey. What if the Gate of Light interferes with the Troll Queen's magic in some way to corrupt it and to cause the curse. That also fits in with the Shimmering Lands timelines since the Gate of Light will be the trigger of the eventual dwarven civil war (which will happen sometime before BC 1800). I'll have to put some thought into that.
night_druid wrote:I'd think it'd be pretty difficult to completely destroy a people. Survivors will likely be assimilated into nearby tribes/cultures.
In most cases yes, I would agree. In the case of the Makers/M'kar however, we are dealing with a people who are known on Modern Mystara to be extinct. Since the Makers were not a populous people (having inhabited only a single island), this doesn't seem too far fetched to me. Imagine if the people of Pompeii were a completely distinct culture or race (or both) from the folks living around them. After Volcano Day, they're gone pure and simple.

It could be that's exactly what happens, since we have our own Volcano Day on Mystara circa BC 1750. The neighboring Taymoran culture is also destroyed in this cataclysm, although unlike the Makers the Taymoran people continue to exist in other forms (namely as the Traldar), but their culture is far more widespread at the time.
Dartamian wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:The Makers- at least as depicted in their art and stonework in X6, are very alien looking in appearance (essentially like the Moai of Easter Island). While that doesn't necessarily rule it out- their artwork might not necessarily reflect their actual appearance- the Stonecarvers themselves are apparently human. It could make for an interesting story to tie them together somehow, though.
Are you implying that the Moai were made by aliens?
Thanks for joining the conversation Dartamian, and your points are well taken. I don't think that CD was implying the Moai were made by aliens, in fact I think he acknowledges that artwork can be a distortion of reality in his original statement. However in a fantasy setting were you have creatures like lupin, orcs, nagpa, enduks, sphinxes, and dragons (and more) inhabiting the world along with humans I don't think we can make the assumption that strange art is interpretive and not factual.

Regardless, as additional background information on the Makers, I am taking Old Dawg's vision of them from the GazF project. That is that the Makers were once humans from Blackmoor who were forced from their homelands due to the unnatural experiments they were performing on themselves (and others). These genetic experiments eventually changed the appearance of the Makers (into something lat looks like the Moai statues) and gave them increased mental abilities. In the BC 2300 setting they are masters of both mental magic and fleshcrafting. From X6 we also know that they were masters of Shadow magic, and from Sharon Dornhoff's work on the Hollow Moon, I am asserting that their shadow magic eventually created the city of Maskelyne (which was eventually transported to the HM).
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Seer of Yhog » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:29 am

These ideas work for me, based on my own work on the M'kar. We should keep in mind that a portion of them settled the Isles of Steam - as per my (now ancient) timeline (quoted below):

***************
BC 2200: The expanding Taymoran culture forces the xenophobic M'kar to retreat to their colonies on scattered islands just off the coast. One of these islands is the one featured in D&D module "X8: Drums on Fire Mountain".

[EDIT: I would change this a bit to accord with the work that we've done for BC 2300 - the political uncertainty of life in the Frontierlands is what drove the Makers to abandon their settlements on the mainland, and confine themselves to their island. They maintain cordial relations with outside powers, but are neutral, and have enough magical power to deter invaders.]

BC 2100: The Taymorans expand still further, the M'kar seek a new home where they will not be bothered by anyone. Already they have forgotten some of the ancient lore; they cannot return to their original world, nor can they contact other groups of M'kar on other worlds.

[EDIT: Since the M'kar/Makers have been changed into genetically modified humans, there is no home world to return to. I would say the explosive deterioration of southeastern Brun (politically) forces the Makers to look for a new refuge, because they know either Mogreth or Taymor will eventually try to seize the island despite the danger and use whatever resources they can find against the other.]

BC 2070: M'kar mages discover a large island far to the east, which does not appear to be inhabited. A great voyage begins, though some remain on their island colonies. Most of those who remain eventually die out.

[EDIT: This can remain pretty much as is. Most of the Makers sail away with as much as they can carry, but a few remain behind to destroy and/or guard what remains. These remaining few fight with Taymor and/or Mogreth, and in the chaos the kara-kara slaves rise up and slaughter their masters.]

So, I would say that the Makers vanish as a regional power by BC 2100, but the island remains a place of mystery until the uprising. Then it becomes a kara-kara infested hellhole, which is then reduced in size in BC 1750.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:52 am

Dartamian wrote:Are you implying that the Moai were made by aliens?
Of course not. Only the pyramids were. Everyone knows that! :lol:

I am humbled by my own illogic- that is a very good point, actually. Just because the statuary/artwork doesn't seem human doesn't necessitate that the Ancestors/Makers were not, in fact, human themselves. As a matter of fact, I kind of like the notion that they were once human now that I think on it, if only because it helps to better solidify the concept that there is/was sort of unified "Makai" religion that the Kara-Kara merely adopted after they'd driven off/killed the Ancestors in the Sea of Dread isles that they occupy. (This is in reference to the discussion of the Kara-Kara pig-god Tapu being part of a hypothetical Makai Pantheon of Immortals.)

I think the main reasons I tend/tended to think of the Makers as some other form of life is due to references in X8 as being "a long departed race" and the artwork on page 17 which depicts them as having large foreheads and earlobes, long chins, and 6 fingered hands.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:57 am

To add to what Geoff mentioned, I don't think we should assume they only inhabited Teki-Nura-Ria; the kara-kara themselves inhabit many islands in the Sea of Dread, so it's entirely possible that the M'Kar/Makers/Ancestors did as well. (In fact, Geoff has done this very thing with his inclusion of them in the Isles of Steam.)

Also, perhaps of note, X8 mentions that the Ancestors increasingly began to adopt a subterranean lifestyle- which could possibly account for their different appearance (if they were originally human).
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Birchbeer » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:00 pm

Couldn't some of the Makers been relocated by Immortals into the Hollow World after 1750? Would their different society warrant inclusion? I could see some immortals wanting to save the culture... even immortals of entropy could get into it (as it's a culture on the decline...). All you'd need is a few good sized islands (which are in abundance in the Hollow World), transplant the Makers (and their slaves) there and you should be good to go. Heck, perhaps immortals abducting the best of the makers helped the society to collapse/extinction occur even faster.

(Side note... it seems to me that this has happened to a few Outer World cultures. Immortals deem the society to be on verge of collapse, so, they take some of the best members of that culture and ensure it is going to collapse. It's weird to me how immortals of the various non entropic spheres would do something like that.)

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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Havard » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:09 pm

Has the origin of the M'Kar been established in previous fan discussions? If not, would it not make sense that they are Blackmoorians who have become mutated from the radiation of the Great Rain of Fire? They could even have been geneticists who made these modifications to themselves in order to protect themselves from radiation etc?

Trolls:
Chimpman wrote:Now that's an interesting idea. I do have some ideas for linking the dwarves to the BC 1700 LRoF, so I don't want to overuse that ploy... but still there might be something there. Hmmm... perhaps it's not even something that the dwarves are aware of or that they do purposely. The Gate of Light is tied into the Radiance and to ancient Blackmoor, and thinking back to Rob's work (Thorn's Chronicles) there is also some connection between Blackmoor and the Fey. What if the Gate of Light interferes with the Troll Queen's magic in some way to corrupt it and to cause the curse. That also fits in with the Shimmering Lands timelines since the Gate of Light will be the trigger of the eventual dwarven civil war (which will happen sometime before BC 1800). I'll have to put some thought into that.
By canon we know that Spirits, and by extension possibly also Fey, are drawn to Mystara after the Great Rain of Fire in order to help heal the damage done to the world and its connection points to the Spirit World through the Cataclysm. the 1700 BC Cataclysm may have increased this summoning of Spirits/Fey?

The Northern Reaches Gaz is also a further source on Great Trolls and their ancestor troll races.

Another thing which could be used in the Troll debate is the appearance of True Trolls in early Blackmoor material. I the original Chainmail miniature Rules, True Trolls were Trolls that could regenerate, ie the kind of creatures later simply referred to as Trolls. Trolls back then were more similar to Ogres, and this terminology was also used in Blackmoor material (The FFC). My idea is to reverse this, making True Trolls the more intelligent, perhaps magic using kind, also found in the Blackmoor Era and have reguler Trolls be called just "Trolls" to keep consistency with later D&D usage.

Thoughts on this?
Birchbeer wrote: Couldn't some of the Makers been relocated by Immortals into the Hollow World after 1750? Would their different society warrant inclusion? I could see some immortals wanting to save the culture... even immortals of entropy could get into it (as it's a culture on the decline...). All you'd need is a few good sized islands (which are in abundance in the Hollow World), transplant the Makers (and their slaves) there and you should be good to go. Heck, perhaps immortals abducting the best of the makers helped the society to collapse/extinction occur even faster.
I think that is a very good idea! :)

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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:01 pm

Thanks Seer, this timeline helps a lot!
Seer of Yhog wrote:BC 2200: The expanding Taymoran culture forces the xenophobic M'kar to retreat to their colonies on scattered islands just off the coast. One of these islands is the one featured in D&D module "X8: Drums on Fire Mountain".

[EDIT: I would change this a bit to accord with the work that we've done for BC 2300 - the political uncertainty of life in the Frontierlands is what drove the Makers to abandon their settlements on the mainland, and confine themselves to their island. They maintain cordial relations with outside powers, but are neutral, and have enough magical power to deter invaders.]
Since this event is listed in BC 2200, should we modify the Maker borders in BC 2300 to include portions of the Frontierlands (and or the Corsair Islands, Taymoran Islands) as well? I'm not opposed to doing so, but want to know what you think. Even if the borders stay the same however, I still see the makers as having some kind of presence in all the above mentioned lands.
Seer of Yhog wrote:BC 2100: The Taymorans expand still further, the M'kar seek a new home where they will not be bothered by anyone. Already they have forgotten some of the ancient lore; they cannot return to their original world, nor can they contact other groups of M'kar on other worlds.

[EDIT: Since the M'kar/Makers have been changed into genetically modified humans, there is no home world to return to. I would say the explosive deterioration of southeastern Brun (politically) forces the Makers to look for a new refuge, because they know either Mogreth or Taymor will eventually try to seize the island despite the danger and use whatever resources they can find against the other.]
And let us not forget that there is also another threat from the Sea of Dread. :twisted: Adhuza (and its kopru rulers) is probably fairly unfriendly to the Makers (whom the kopru have great difficulty controlling).
Seer of Yhog wrote:BC 2070: M'kar mages discover a large island far to the east, which does not appear to be inhabited. A great voyage begins, though some remain on their island colonies. Most of those who remain eventually die out.

[EDIT: This can remain pretty much as is. Most of the Makers sail away with as much as they can carry, but a few remain behind to destroy and/or guard what remains. These remaining few fight with Taymor and/or Mogreth, and in the chaos the kara-kara slaves rise up and slaughter their masters.]
I'm assuming the islands mentioned here are the Isles of Steam (in the BC 2300 map all/most of the Thangioth archipelago are still connected in one land mass)? What would they have looked like back then? Would it have been one large island or would it have maintained its current modern shorelines?

Also, what happened to these makers? Do they still exist in modern times?
Seer of Yhog wrote:So, I would say that the Makers vanish as a regional power by BC 2100, but the island remains a place of mystery until the uprising. Then it becomes a kara-kara infested hellhole, which is then reduced in size in BC 1750.
What do you think about the Shadows idea? Is there a way to tie in the city of Maskelyne on the HM with the Makers, or are we trying to do too much with that?
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:09 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:To add to what Geoff mentioned, I don't think we should assume they only inhabited Teki-Nura-Ria; the kara-kara themselves inhabit many islands in the Sea of Dread, so it's entirely possible that the M'Kar/Makers/Ancestors did as well. (In fact, Geoff has done this very thing with his inclusion of them in the Isles of Steam.)

Also, perhaps of note, X8 mentions that the Ancestors increasingly began to adopt a subterranean lifestyle- which could possibly account for their different appearance (if they were originally human).
I had read Seer's timeline before, but completely forgotten about the Isles of Steam. The one deterrent for them inhabiting nearby islands would be Adhuza... although the Makers would have a distinct advantage when dealing with that nation since they can't be mind controlled.
Birchbeer wrote:Couldn't some of the Makers been relocated by Immortals into the Hollow World after 1750? Would their different society warrant inclusion? I could see some immortals wanting to save the culture... even immortals of entropy could get into it (as it's a culture on the decline...).
I think they should definitely be saved somewhere. Perhaps we could have several groups of "Makers" saved. One of this culture could easily be placed in the HW... possibly even near to the Merry Pirates (in BC 2300 the Makers have dealings with the Corsair culture to the east). After their collapse and transformation into Shadows (should we choose to go that route) another group could also be moved to the HM.
Birchbeer wrote:All you'd need is a few good sized islands (which are in abundance in the Hollow World), transplant the Makers (and their slaves) there and you should be good to go. Heck, perhaps immortals abducting the best of the makers helped the society to collapse/extinction occur even faster.
Yeah, funny thing that. I've had that idea in the back of my head for a while as well.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:15 am

Havard wrote:Has the origin of the M'Kar been established in previous fan discussions? If not, would it not make sense that they are Blackmoorians who have become mutated from the radiation of the Great Rain of Fire? They could even have been geneticists who made these modifications to themselves in order to protect themselves from radiation etc?
Not a lot, but this is the general direction we're taking it at the moment. There were more discussions in some of the GazF threads, and that's what I based my initial design on.
Havard wrote:By canon we know that Spirits, and by extension possibly also Fey, are drawn to Mystara after the Great Rain of Fire in order to help heal the damage done to the world and its connection points to the Spirit World through the Cataclysm. the 1700 BC Cataclysm may have increased this summoning of Spirits/Fey?
That's a good point. In fact we know that the LRoF weakened the boundaries to the Spirit World, since the Land of Black Sands was created during that catastrophe.
Havard wrote:Another thing which could be used in the Troll debate is the appearance of True Trolls in early Blackmoor material. I the original Chainmail miniature Rules, True Trolls were Trolls that could regenerate, ie the kind of creatures later simply referred to as Trolls. Trolls back then were more similar to Ogres, and this terminology was also used in Blackmoor material (The FFC). My idea is to reverse this, making True Trolls the more intelligent, perhaps magic using kind, also found in the Blackmoor Era and have reguler Trolls be called just "Trolls" to keep consistency with later D&D usage.
Hmmm... this is very interesting... so were the canon "True Trolls" still just slavering monsters? One idea I had was that male trolls were always this way... it was just the female trolls that were the more intelligent and magically inclined. The Troll Curse would then have made the females more like the males. That would give us the ability to have slavering, regenerating trolls all the way back in the Blackmoorian era (they were the males) and still have our BC 2300 troll plotline work.

Another interesting thought popped into my head after reading what you said about trolls and ogres in Blackmoor. Could the BC 2300 "Trolls" esentially be the same thing as Ogre-magi. I think that's very much in line with the feeling I'm trying to engender for Grondheim. It also gives us a possible tie-in with Ochalea and the Ogre-Magi nation that springs up there in GPs Ochalea Gaz.
So we would need to better define the relationship between the following entities:
Ogres
Trolls
Ogre-magi

So perhaps trolls and ogres are just lesser versions of the ogre-magi. The "Troll Curse" that I've been talking about need not be universal in that case. Perhaps the Troll queen simply lobotomizes her entire court, turning the ogre-magi there (including herself) into slavering beasts. That's why ogre-magi are uncommon on mainland Brun. Some of her court were able to escape their fate by fleeing Grondhime however, and they eventually set up shop on Ochalea. I have to go back and look at GPs timeline to see how things could fit together.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:50 am

In regards to Ogre-Magi, I'm personally really liking the route that the Pathfinder guys have been taking with the Ogre-magi as Oni. It seems a bit more interesting than previous D&D takes which weren't really terribly consistent (the Ogre-magi was always fairly clearly based on the oni, but it tended to either ignore the oni/Oriental connections in non-Oriental Adventure settings). The Background material on them in the Jade Regent: The Brinewall Legacy has the oni collectively as evil spirits that clothe themselves in humanoid flesh. All of which would/could be used to tie them very effectively with the Spirit World and the Ethengarians, as well as the Ochaleans and similar cultures that are in close contact with the Spirit World.
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Havard » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:14 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:In regards to Ogre-Magi, I'm personally really liking the route that the Pathfinder guys have been taking with the Ogre-magi as Oni. It seems a bit more interesting than previous D&D takes which weren't really terribly consistent (the Ogre-magi was always fairly clearly based on the oni, but it tended to either ignore the oni/Oriental connections in non-Oriental Adventure settings). The Background material on them in the Jade Regent: The Brinewall Legacy has the oni collectively as evil spirits that clothe themselves in humanoid flesh. All of which would/could be used to tie them very effectively with the Spirit World and the Ethengarians, as well as the Ochaleans and similar cultures that are in close contact with the Spirit World.
A Norse/British take on the same thing could be Trolls being connected to Dark Fey...



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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:19 pm

Chimpman wrote:Thanks Seer, this timeline helps a lot!
My pleasure, Dr. Chimp (D. Phil., Rh'thegg College, Ythlil Academy of Higher Knowledge)! That's the joy of having a community as extensive and old as ours - chances are, someone has written an answer to your question, somewhere. The Vaults would probably qualify as an oracle.
Seer of Yhog wrote:BC 2200: The expanding Taymoran culture forces the xenophobic M'kar to retreat to their colonies on scattered islands just off the coast. One of these islands is the one featured in D&D module "X8: Drums on Fire Mountain".
Chimpman wrote:Since this event is listed in BC 2200, should we modify the Maker borders in BC 2300 to include portions of the Frontierlands (and or the Corsair Islands, Taymoran Islands) as well? I'm not opposed to doing so, but want to know what you think. Even if the borders stay the same however, I still see the makers as having some kind of presence in all the above mentioned lands.
I think this would be a good idea, as I like to synthesise things together as much as possible. On the mainland, there would be a few hexes of claimed territory, and maybe the closest island, as well. Not terribly big.
Chimpman wrote:And let us not forget that there is also another threat from the Sea of Dread. :twisted: Adhuza (and its kopru rulers) is probably fairly unfriendly to the Makers (whom the kopru have great difficulty controlling).
And what the Adhuzans can't control, they might decide to overwhelm militarily, if they get frustrated enough. It's kind of hard to run away when you're on an island, and your enemy is underwater. The Adhuzans might also have influenced some of the more intelligent kara-kara to act as a fifth column, too... :twisted:
Chimpman wrote:I'm assuming the islands mentioned here are the Isles of Steam (in the BC 2300 map all/most of the Thangioth archipelago are still connected in one land mass)? What would they have looked like back then? Would it have been one large island or would it have maintained its current modern shorelines?
Yes, and back then the Isles of Steam were one big island. My timeline traces the rise and fall of sea levels over time - including a period when sea levels were even higher than the AC 1000 period (c. BC 8500-6000), which is why the ruined Lhomarrian outpost is now high up in the hills. I had the geological upheavals of BC 1750 cause the partial sinking of the Isle, producing the modern Isles of Steam. I also have a map of them, that Thibeault drew up a few years ago, that I can share.
Chimpman wrote:Also, what happened to these makers? Do they still exist in modern times?
I had them die out in BC 1300 (wiped out by the kara-kara), but there is nothing to say that some of them could not have fled into the Lhomarrian ruins (which the M'kar expanded in an earlier time, when they were more advanced) before then. I don't know when Maskelyne (sp?) was created in the HM, but this would be an ideal way to have them become shadows. Those who fled underground could have tried to rebuild their civlisation, but in doing so rediscovered secrets that turned them down a different path.

As for a reason to bring them to the HM, there is always the community of aranea (who arrived in BC 900), who are now the secret rulers of the islands.

Contrary to what local fragmentary lore says, there are aranea on the island. They number only around 150, and confine themselves to the Lhomarrian ruins and their immediate vicinity. The vast majority of them have occupied themselves in studying the lore that is to be found in the ruins. Over the centuries they have managed to decipher the Lhomarrian script, and have gained a wealth of information on magic, historical lore, and insights into a vanished culture. Their centuries of isolation have also left them a little paranoid. They now believe that they are the sole inheritors of Lhomarrian culture, and refuse to deal with what they see as "unenlightened barbarians", who only plot to steal their knowledge from them. They refuse to leave the ruins, or the catacombs beneath them. What will happen in the future is up to the DM, though certain aranea have been meeting in secret to discuss the possibility of using their powers to try to conquer the islands once again. As a side note, these aranea do not possess the shapeshifting ability common to their cousins living in Herath.
Chimpman wrote:What do you think about the Shadows idea? Is there a way to tie in the city of Maskelyne on the HM with the Makers, or are we trying to do too much with that?
Love this idea!
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:49 pm

Havard wrote:The Northern Reaches Gaz is also a further source on Great Trolls and their ancestor troll races.

Another thing which could be used in the Troll debate is the appearance of True Trolls in early Blackmoor material. I the original Chainmail miniature Rules, True Trolls were Trolls that could regenerate, ie the kind of creatures later simply referred to as Trolls. Trolls back then were more similar to Ogres, and this terminology was also used in Blackmoor material (The FFC). My idea is to reverse this, making True Trolls the more intelligent, perhaps magic using kind, also found in the Blackmoor Era and have reguler Trolls be called just "Trolls" to keep consistency with later D&D usage.

Thoughts on this?
I quite like it. In fact, I'd have the True Troll be reflected in the Northern Reaches Gaz's Earth, Rock, and Giant Trolls. The common Root Troll (standard D&D Troll) could be the result of Chimpman's "Troll Curse". Note also that the Earth Troll is said to be even less intelligent then the Root Troll.

And a quick, slightly off-topic note as I'm not sure if it was in this thread or not, but somewhere recently people were talking about the three waves of humanoid migrations into the Northern Reaches. I think someone mentioned that we didn't know how long of a period they extended over. We know they started around 1700 BC and I just read in the Gaz, under the Troll section, that the giants (the third and final wave) arrived around 1600 BC, giving us about a century for the migrations. That's relatively close together suggesting a possible link in the cause of these migrations.

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Re: Where did they go?

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:12 pm

Havard wrote:Another thing which could be used in the Troll debate is the appearance of True Trolls in early Blackmoor material. I the original Chainmail miniature Rules, True Trolls were Trolls that could regenerate, ie the kind of creatures later simply referred to as Trolls. Trolls back then were more similar to Ogres, and this terminology was also used in Blackmoor material (The FFC). My idea is to reverse this, making True Trolls the more intelligent, perhaps magic using kind, also found in the Blackmoor Era and have reguler Trolls be called just "Trolls" to keep consistency with later D&D usage.
This is how trolls are on the Runequest world of Glorantha; the first trolls were Mistress Trolls, born before the creation of the land or sea, less anthropomorphic and far more magical than modern troll races. After the troll goddess of fertility, Korasting, was killed by the god of the sun, no more Mistress Trolls have been born. All those who remain are immortals born before the primal cataclysm. Younger trolls are the dark trolls, who are less magical, smaller, but still intelligent, and trollkin, cursed offspring of dark trolls who are misshapen and stunted. Great trolls are like ogres; they were the result of an attempt to break the curse that prevented the birth of new trolls of the Mistress Race, resulting in a troll that is as big as the ancient Mistress Race, but much less intelligent. Cave trolls are essentially D&D trolls; these are trolls mutated by Chaos so that they have low intelligence, stupider than the great trolls, but capable of regenerating from terrible wounds.

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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:35 pm

Havard wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:In regards to Ogre-Magi, I'm personally really liking the route that the Pathfinder guys have been taking with the Ogre-magi as Oni. It seems a bit more interesting than previous D&D takes which weren't really terribly consistent (the Ogre-magi was always fairly clearly based on the oni, but it tended to either ignore the oni/Oriental connections in non-Oriental Adventure settings). The Background material on them in the Jade Regent: The Brinewall Legacy has the oni collectively as evil spirits that clothe themselves in humanoid flesh. All of which would/could be used to tie them very effectively with the Spirit World and the Ethengarians, as well as the Ochaleans and similar cultures that are in close contact with the Spirit World.
A Norse/British take on the same thing could be Trolls being connected to Dark Fey...
rip wrote:This is how trolls are on the Runequest world of Glorantha; the first trolls were Mistress Trolls, born before the creation of the land or sea, less anthropomorphic and far more magical than modern troll races. After the troll goddess of fertility, Korasting, was killed by the god of the sun, no more Mistress Trolls have been born. All those who remain are immortals born before the primal cataclysm. Younger trolls are the dark trolls, who are less magical, smaller, but still intelligent, and trollkin, cursed offspring of dark trolls who are misshapen and stunted. Great trolls are like ogres; they were the result of an attempt to break the curse that prevented the birth of new trolls of the Mistress Race, resulting in a troll that is as big as the ancient Mistress Race, but much less intelligent. Cave trolls are essentially D&D trolls; these are trolls mutated by Chaos so that they have low intelligence, stupider than the great trolls, but capable of regenerating from terrible wounds.
I like the idea of Mistress Trolls being some form of Dark Fey - this is something that Havard and I talked about back when we started developing Grondheim. From a 3E standpoint I'm not sure that Oni/Ogre-Magi are Fey (I think they are classified as Giants, but perhaps we could reclassify them for our purposes), however given that their powers are very similar to those that I want for a Mistress Troll (thanks for the term rip!) I'd say that the difference between these two groups could be more cultural than anything else.

Some legends of Oni tell tales about the Oni living with and guiding humanity, but after some time goes by they become bitter and capricious and eventually turn to evil pursuits. What if the Oni/Ogre-Magi (of Ochalea) and Mistress Trolls are one in the same race, with the Oni being the male half and the Mistress Trolls being the female. Once the curse effects the Mistress Trolls (turning them into slavering monsters), the Oni leave and become bitter with their lot in life. They eventually turn to evil and begin oppressing the inhabitants of Ochalea.
Hugin wrote:And a quick, slightly off-topic note as I'm not sure if it was in this thread or not, but somewhere recently people were talking about the three waves of humanoid migrations into the Northern Reaches. I think someone mentioned that we didn't know how long of a period they extended over. We know they started around 1700 BC and I just read in the Gaz, under the Troll section, that the giants (the third and final wave) arrived around 1600 BC, giving us about a century for the migrations. That's relatively close together suggesting a possible link in the cause of these migrations.
Not so off topic. I think that might give us the dates we want. I'd say that the start of the migrations could coincide with the beginning of the curse, and over the next century the giants are defending themselves from increased depredations of the transformed Mistress Trolls. Eventually they are forced to flee into the Northern Reaches territories.

An interesting side note - perhaps the giants managed to bind their enemies before fleeing their torn homeland. That could mean that the Mistress Trolls are still waiting for some unknowing adventurers to stumble upon them and free them... :twisted:
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Re: Where did they go?

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:56 pm

Cool, I take a stab at redrawing the Maker borders in the near future. I think having them a bit more spread out gives us some more adventure fodder to play around with.
Seer of Yhog wrote:
Chimpman wrote:I'm assuming the islands mentioned here are the Isles of Steam (in the BC 2300 map all/most of the Thangioth archipelago are still connected in one land mass)? What would they have looked like back then? Would it have been one large island or would it have maintained its current modern shorelines?
Yes, and back then the Isles of Steam were one big island. My timeline traces the rise and fall of sea levels over time - including a period when sea levels were even higher than the AC 1000 period (c. BC 8500-6000), which is why the ruined Lhomarrian outpost is now high up in the hills. I had the geological upheavals of BC 1750 cause the partial sinking of the Isle, producing the modern Isles of Steam. I also have a map of them, that Thibeault drew up a few years ago, that I can share.
I'd love to see this map. Is it on the Vaults or is it something that you'd have to scan in? I found the map of cestia and the Isles of Steam, but that looks to be a modern era map (and done at 72mph?).
Seer of Yhog wrote:
Chimpman wrote:Also, what happened to these makers? Do they still exist in modern times?
I had them die out in BC 1300 (wiped out by the kara-kara), but there is nothing to say that some of them could not have fled into the Lhomarrian ruins (which the M'kar expanded in an earlier time, when they were more advanced) before then. I don't know when Maskelyne (sp?) was created in the HM, but this would be an ideal way to have them become shadows. Those who fled underground could have tried to rebuild their civlisation, but in doing so rediscovered secrets that turned them down a different path.

As for a reason to bring them to the HM, there is always the community of aranea (who arrived in BC 900), who are now the secret rulers of the islands.

Contrary to what local fragmentary lore says, there are aranea on the island. They number only around 150, and confine themselves to the Lhomarrian ruins and their immediate vicinity. The vast majority of them have occupied themselves in studying the lore that is to be found in the ruins. Over the centuries they have managed to decipher the Lhomarrian script, and have gained a wealth of information on magic, historical lore, and insights into a vanished culture. Their centuries of isolation have also left them a little paranoid. They now believe that they are the sole inheritors of Lhomarrian culture, and refuse to deal with what they see as "unenlightened barbarians", who only plot to steal their knowledge from them. They refuse to leave the ruins, or the catacombs beneath them. What will happen in the future is up to the DM, though certain aranea have been meeting in secret to discuss the possibility of using their powers to try to conquer the islands once again. As a side note, these aranea do not possess the shapeshifting ability common to their cousins living in Herath.
I haven't been able to gather much information on Maskelyne in the HM, but I really like the idea of lining them to the Makers. I also love your idea to link them to the second group of Makers from the Isles of Steam. If those Makers had degenerated to some degree it would explain why they lost control of their Shadow Magic and managed to turn themselves into living Shadows.

As far as the aranea go, I've always had the idea that only the Herathians could shapeshift (along with maybe an elite few living in Old Aran near Thothia), so I think we're on the same page there. The aranea also make for great villains, and it could be that this group caused the eventual downfall of Maskelyne which warranted their placement in the HM. So the timeline might go something like this:

BC 1300: Maker colony wiped out by kara-kara. Survivors flee to the Lhomarrian ruins using their magic to transform into shadows.
BC 900: Aranea arrive on the island and take an interest in the ruins. They begin fighting with the Maker Shadows.
BC 800: The aranea use magic to obliterate the shadows and claim the Lhomarrian legacy for themselves. The Shadows, and their city of Maskelyne, are moved to the Hollow Moon.

Of course the times above are only estimates, but it gives us approximately 400 years of Maker/M'kar rule on the island before the kara-kara overwhelm them. It also gives us a period of Shadow dominance on the island before the aranea rule begins.
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