[Nation] Grondheim

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Re: [Nation] Grondheim

Post by Sturm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:59 am

These days I am looking in the ideas thrown around while I was writing Koskatep and I think it is better to post them here because otherwise they were only present in the comments of one of my articles, so they could get lost:

Nature and parentage of the Troll Queen
The Troll Queen in 2300 BC should be Morganna/Morgana, the same fairy Queen of the Court of Twilight (in Skothar) which in RobJN's story, had twin daughters with Unther after 4000 BC. Later in the history of Grondheim, the Troll Queen could have been removed/succedeed by one of her daughters, Oona, between 2300 and 2170 BC, while Titania probably became Queen of Summer (the Court of the fairies of Brun) only after 2080 BC and the disappearance/retirement of Oona.
Morganna and Oona could still be alive somewhere in the world in modern times.

My Koskatep Timeline:
The Great Mother Time: When the fairies were not divided in two Courts, Chaos ruled over Law and the Great Mother reigned. The mythical time in which fairies were above the modern Immortals.
The Dragon wars: When, after the Immortals betrayed and killed the Great Mother, the Dragons waged war against the Immortals and were defeated, losing their immortality. Fairies, allied with the dragons, were also exiled from the immortal realms.
Ixion and Elienor: When Elienor the Fairy Queen of Summer fell in love with the Immortal, Ixion, and they had a daughter who was called Ashira.
Ashira’s Dream: When Ashira created the Dream of Fire, a powerful artifact that could change past history. Her father Ixion imprisoned her for this. Elienor led a war against her former lover, but the fairies were defeated.
Carnifex wars: When Carnifex and the Outer Beings almost destroyed the Immortals, and some fairies decided to help them to save the worlds. Thus it was that the rift was created between the Unseelie Court of Elienor and the Seelie Court of Morganna.
Blackmoor: When Morganna fell in love with Uther, King of Blackmoor, but later the fairies of both courts had to fight the encroachment of the technomagic empire.
2504 BC: The Inti, led by the church of Ixion, occupy the ruins and rebuild the city of Koskatepetl.
2379 BC: The Troll Queen of Grondheim conquers the city, renaming it Krystallac. Just a few years later sidhe priests discover the existence of the inner temple and begin a century long negotiation with the Sollux and the Brutemen below to gain access to the artifact. The Troll Queen also creates the Crystal Lake, a permanent gate to the Border, the area between the Dreamlands and the Nightmare dimension.
2282 BC: As the Queen grows impatient about the unwillingness of Ixion to compromise, she sends her best troops to open the temple. Inti troops soon attack the place, and Taymora intervenes shortly thereafter. This is the beginning of the War of the Empires, or the Twilight Wars, or the War of Southern Grondheim, that will last decades and will devastate the region. Mogreth intervenes as well a few years later.
2170 BC: Some fairies of Krystallac turn to the Unseelie, and decide to tell Elienor about Ashira’s tomb. The Troll Queen discovers them and exiles them, and manages to scatter the essence of Elienor after a terrible magical battle near the Crystal Lake. But she is gravely wounded by Elienor’s magic, and will never be able to recover. The Crystal lake is also damaged and its capacity as a portal greatly reduced.
2080 BC: In a time of crisis in Grondheim due to the Troll Queen’s malady Taymora and Intua, lizardmen and troglodytes, escaped from the Mogreth, occupy Krystallac and keep it for a hundred years. As the lizardmen cannot locate all the portals left by the fairies in Level 9, they try to seal it completely.
1976 BC: After a long siege Taymora conquers Krystallac and renames it Kosmoteiros. Nyx knows about Ixion’s artifact but rather than try to steal or destroy it she decides to exploit the magical aura of the place to build her own strongest artifact that will bring fulfillment of her Dream. The followers of Nyx leave Krystallac alone, and fairy agents of Titania, the Troll Queen and their mother Morganna start to fight to control the Crystal Lake.

The discussion:
Me wrote:
I'd like to have the Troll Queen and Titania as competing sisters. My general idea is that the Troll Queen was trying to find a compromise between the Seelie and the Unseelie courts
Chimpman wrote:
I think in my mind the original Troll Queen would be "Morganna". By BC 2300 that's probably who I would put on the throne, so in my mind it makes more sense for the "mother" to be in charge at this early stage.
However, I like the idea of competing sisters (and daughters competing also with their mother), so I think the crown could change heads after BC 2300... but I think this is too early.
For example, I see big struggles happening between BC 2282 and BC 2080, especially. It might be that the "new Troll Queen" is more impatient than the old one, which ultimately causes her downfall (and all those subsequent events in the timeline).
Me wrote:
Elienor just thought the Troll Queen was just trying to steal HER followers, and make another compromise with the hated Immortals and, even worse, gain control of her daughter Ashira for herself. Hence the battle. The Troll Queen won and Elienor was banished for centuries, as explained in issue 8, but the Troll Queen too was gravely wouded. This eventually will lead to her death? stasis? and the fall of Grondheim... any date for the fall of Grondheim?
Chimpman wrote:
I think this fits in with the general Grondheim timeline. Grondheim itself goes through a gradual decline, loosing territory to Taymora in the south and Antalians in the northeast. Others probably pick away at their borders from BC 2000 up to BC 1700.
I'm envisioning BC 1700 (in fact the exact moment when the Blackmorian device is triggered) as the fall of Grondheim. It is at this point that the Troll Queen (whoever she is at the time) disappears and her nation is shattered (and the "trolls" are "cursed"). Of course in BC 1700 I also envision that the borders of Grondheim are much smaller than they are in BC 2300... probably amounting to what is present day Glantri + Broken Lands and perhaps a bit more.
So in short, this might mark the "decline" of Grondheim, but the actual "fall" comes in BC 1700.
Me wrote:
Troll Queen BTW her real name could be Oona, as we already have Titania, Morganna and Mabel
Chimpman wrote:
Based on RobJN's work (though it does stray from canon a bit) the Troll Queen would definitely bee from Morganna's line (as that was the line that was intertwined with Blackmoor).
For my part, that's probably the direction I would take it as well.
EDIT: Ahh... nevermind, I think I just realized you are talking about Morganna's daughter here. Though Rob has names for her daughters already, it is very possible that they go by many other names as well - they are fey after all ;).
So if you wanted to give her your own name, that should work... but again, I think I would add the daughters in later on in the timeline (after BC 2300)
Me wrote:
My general idea is that Elienor was the Queen of Summer, as said in issue 8, Kundrak, and became the Queen of Winter, leader of the Unseelie, after Ixion put Ashira in stasis.
Originally RobJN had Morganna and Titania as the same person, leader of the fairies who helped the Immortals against the Carnifex, but I understand he has separated them now.
I'd have then Morganna as the Queen of Twilight. She could have two daughters, Titania and the Troll Queen. Titania became the new Queen of Summer. I have this idea however that one of them should be daughter of Thanatos, hence the final prophecy. But this will not be explained in the article.
The Queen of Spring is Mabel of Virdin which I introduced in issue 5, she had a daughter, undeveloped so far, with the Enemy, aka Gargantua, i.e. the enemy of the immortals. That also however is beyond the purpose of the article.
What do you think?
I'd go with this story if you do not have specific objections.
Chimpman wrote:
I'll let Rob speak to this as well, but here are my high level thoughts:
Based on Rob's work (Thorn's Mystara) Morganna would have had two daughters from Uther Pendragon (King of Blackmoor).
I like the idea that the Troll Queen is from this line. I also like the idea that a few of this line (including mother, daughters, and perhaps even "clones" of daughters) might have struggled for the title of Troll Queen of Grondheim throughout that nation's existence. In fact I find it highly likely that more than one of them held the title at different times.
Unfortunately I am still working through many of the timeline details for Grondheim, so I can't say for certain who the Troll Queen is at the time of Krystallac. In general I think it's fine to keep this point vague. That should allow us to fill in some of the blanks once we are ready, and should also allow other DMs to fill in the blanks according to their own needs and campaigns.
I don't think adding other fairy lines will hurt BC 2300 at all - in fact it just gives me more fodder to play around with, so I like the Fairy Queens you have outlined. But I think keep their daughters vague.
Me wrote:
Yes, I've not created yet Mabel's daughter, but I suppose she too could have been the Troll Queen for a time, as Morganna, Titania and the other daughter, who I supposed could be called Oona. The latter could be the one who battled Elienor and maybe she was later substituted by Titania or another.
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Re: [Nation] Grondheim

Post by RobJN » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:32 pm

Have I mentioned how much I love this thread? And still find things to think about from years-old posts?

:D
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Re: [Nation] Grondheim

Post by Sturm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:53 pm

I will have also another thread shortly about Fairy Politics in the main forum :)
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Re: [Nation] Grondheim

Post by RobJN » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:39 pm

Havard recently posted over at the Comeback Inn, asking about the trolls of Blackmoor. Of course, Thorn has his own take on the creatures, but re-re-reading it makes me wonder if these legends need some fleshing out, and entangling with the politics and magicks of Southern Grondheim and Taymora.

Perhaps it was the mingling of fey and vampiric-tainted blood that caused the degeneration....?
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Re: [Nation] Grondheim

Post by Sturm » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:54 am

The Comeback Inn forums are currently returning a 502 Bad Gateway to me right now...
Anyway I'd like to have the trolls indeed as ancient creatures related to fairies.
Even in the original mythology, the look of trolls is ambiguous and in fact there are ugly trolls, cute trolls, big trolls, small trolls. I have indeed the impression in ancient Norway myths troll was just the local name for "a lot of fairy folks". In modern iconography too they are quite different, from the ones in Frozen to the ones in the namesake animated movie, to the ones in Tolkien..
Looking at this, I would be inclined to assume the original trolls were silicon-based shapeshifter fairies while the modern, classic D&D trolls are just a degenerated breed which lost the ability to change form and also most of its brain :)
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Re: [Nation] Grondheim

Post by Havard » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:25 pm

Sturm wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:54 am
The Comeback Inn forums are currently returning a 502 Bad Gateway to me right now...
Should be working now :)

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Re: [Nation] Grondheim

Post by Sturm » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:46 pm

Yes I was able to access it later, thanks!
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