Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

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Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:30 am

I know we've talked about this a little bit in other threads, but I wanted to get these ideas in an image format I could look over.

Map of Blackmoorian Locations in BC 2300

The red dots mark possible locations that the Blackmoorians could have occupied before the GRoF. Those locations fall on 1) The Lost Valley in Grondheim/Karameikos, 2) Site of the BC 1700 catastrophe in Grondheim/Broken Lands, 3) Fenhold in Toralai lands?/Alfheim, 4) The World Mountain in the Shimmering Lands/Ethengar, and 5) Teka Nuri Ria in the Sea of Dread/Refuge of the Makers. The only site I can think of that is not listed on this map would be Urzud (which is much farther north and to the west in Hyboria).

Are there any other potential Blackmoorian sites on this map (or nearby)?

One thing I'm noticing so far is that Hidden Mogreth would have been completely surrounded in the Blackmoor era (at least at the end of it). It also might be a possibility that these sites were built along some kind of ley lines. If that is the case then perhaps we can extrapolate new locations on a larger map.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby RobJN » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:37 am

Chimpman wrote:I know we've talked about this a little bit in other threads, but I wanted to get these ideas in an image format I could look over.

Map of Blackmoorian Locations in BC 2300

The red dots mark possible locations that the Blackmoorians could have occupied before the GRoF. Those locations fall on 1) The Lost Valley in Grondheim/Karameikos, 2) Site of the BC 1700 catastrophe in Grondheim/Broken Lands, 3) Fenhold in Toralai lands?/Alfheim, 4) The World Mountain in the Shimmering Lands/Ethengar, and 5) Teka Nuri Ria in the Sea of Dread/Refuge of the Makers. The only site I can think of that is not listed on this map would be Urzud (which is much farther north and to the west in Hyboria).

Are there any other potential Blackmoorian sites on this map (or nearby)?

One thing I'm noticing so far is that Hidden Mogreth would have been completely surrounded in the Blackmoor era (at least at the end of it). It also might be a possibility that these sites were built along some kind of ley lines. If that is the case then perhaps we can extrapolate new locations on a larger map.

Not yet sure about the viability of Ley Lines (an idea I really like, but haven't yet had time to (wait for it)... lay down). But the markers would be a good start.

Some notes with regards to Thorn's Pre GRoF Brun:
Grondheim/The Lost Valley: As was said before, this was the Belerophon Colony, a research outpost and supply depot during the Beastman/Dragon Wars. The GRoF would have caused the colony to go into lockdown. It is unknown whether or not the Troll Queen was even aware of the colony slumbering beneath her kingdom, until Loktar's Glittering Empire expeditionary force broke into the Deep Vaults...

(Un)Broken Lands: The Seal of Fire was laid down here, a capstone over an Elemental Plane of Fire manifest zone. I envision that whole area to be much like Yellowstone.

Fenhold: Could Fenhold have been the location of the Seal of Water? While it was known to house a planar gateway, it is unclear whether or not it was a minor gateway or another manifest zone.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:41 am

Yeah, out of those locations I'm thinking that 3 of the 5 have been breached in BC 2300. Those would be the World Mountain - controlled by Engdyr Heldfyst of the Shimmering Lands, the Broken Lands location - marginally controlled by the Troll Queen, and of course the site on Teka Nuri Ria - controlled by the Makers.

Of the other two sites, I think the Lost Valley remains hidden (though it might be breached during the Nithian era), and Fenhold remains unexplored (the local tribes probably regard it as taboo).
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Havard » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:24 am

Cool thread :)

Chimpman wrote: 1) The Lost Valley in Grondheim/Karameikos
2) Site of the BC 1700 catastrophe in Grondheim/Broken Lands
3) Fenhold in Toralai lands?/Alfheim,
4) The World Mountain in the Shimmering Lands/Ethengar, and
5) Teka Nuri Ria in the Sea of Dread/Refuge of the Makers.
The only site I can think of that is not listed on this map would be Urzud (which is much farther north and to the west in Hyboria).

Are there any other potential Blackmoorian sites on this map (or nearby)?


6) You already have the Brokenlands covered, but shouldnt there be devices left in the Proto-Glantri region as well? (Not counting the NoS).
7) IIRC, the Dragonlord Trilogy features a Blackmoorian Stronghold in the Northern Reaches
8) I like the idea of multiple Teigh Moore Corporation bases near what would become Taymor as suggested by James Mishler (fanon).

It also might be a possibility that these sites were built along some kind of ley lines. If that is the case then perhaps we can extrapolate new locations on a larger map.


LOVE this idea. You will have additional freedom with the parts of the Known World that later sink into the sea. Could be plenty of things there.

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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Cthulhudrew » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:39 pm

Havard wrote:7) IIRC, the Dragonlord Trilogy features a Blackmoorian Stronghold in the Northern Reaches


That's my recollection as well. There is a white dragon character in- I believe- the second novel who has a cavernous home somewhere in the Northern Reaches; I want to say it's in the Makkres Mountain range, but I'd have to double check. It covered the first couple paragraphs of a chapter, IIRC, describing the dragon entering the cavern and soaring through it, and connected it with Blackmoor times.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:06 pm

Havard wrote:6) You already have the Brokenlands covered, but shouldnt there be devices left in the Proto-Glantri region as well? (Not counting the NoS).

That's a distinct possibility. Jagger (or one of his ancestors) found his Blackmoorian "artifact" from somewhere... I'm going to have to go back to Gaz 3 and see if I can narrow down some locations.

Havard wrote:7) IIRC, the Dragonlord Trilogy features a Blackmoorian Stronghold in the Northern Reaches

Cthulhudrew wrote:That's my recollection as well. There is a white dragon character in- I believe- the second novel who has a cavernous home somewhere in the Northern Reaches; I want to say it's in the Makkres Mountain range, but I'd have to double check. It covered the first couple paragraphs of a chapter, IIRC, describing the dragon entering the cavern and soaring through it, and connected it with Blackmoor times.

Is there anything more specific than this given? I don't own these books, but I'd love to be able to pinpoint this location down as near as possible to where the book specifies it.

Havard wrote:8) I like the idea of multiple Teigh Moore Corporation bases near what would become Taymor as suggested by James Mishler (fanon).

Hmmm... that's not something I considered, but it's also possible. Doesn't PC3 say that the Taymorans migrated to the area from somewhere else though (north or west)? If that's the case, then the original "Blackmoorian" era settlements would not be within Taymora. Perhaps #6 and #8 are one in the same?
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:11 pm

Something Seer said in another thread made me think of something else. If Blackmoor had outposts on Brun, and other Brunian cultures survived the GRoF (as we know many did), then what happened to the Blackmoorians on Brun? Shouldn't they still be around?

I always assumed that the beastmen up north would have taken care of any Blackmoorians around there (in Urzud and surrounds) shortly after the GRoF. Once the outpost was cut off from any supplies they would have been an easy target for the barbarian beastmen. I've always assumed they survived for a brief time after the GRoF before being wiped out.

But what about the other Blackmoorian locations? Were they just too sparsely inhabited to become viable settlements after the GRoF? Or did something else remove any remaining Blackmoorians in the area... or are they still around and we just don't know it ;) Could any of them be around circa BC 2300 (not counting the Makers who do indeed fit in this category)? If they are what became of them? There's still plenty of time (around 3300 years) to wipe them out before entering into the modern era... but I would think they should disappear sooner rather than later.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby ripvanwormer » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:42 pm

Chimpman wrote:That's a distinct possibility. Jagger (or one of his ancestors) found his Blackmoorian "artifact" from somewhere.


Maybe he had it handed down from his ancestors on Dragon Rock.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Cthulhudrew » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:54 pm

Chimpman wrote:That's a distinct possibility. Jagger (or one of his ancestors) found his Blackmoorian "artifact" from somewhere... I'm going to have to go back to Gaz 3 and see if I can narrow down some locations.


I seem to recall it was implied he picked it up during his adventures among the Land of the Earthshakers (from the Jaggar's Transforming Gargantoid entry by Bruce Heard from the Book of Marvelous Magic). I may have just put two and two together to equal my own preferred version of four, though.

Alternatively, you could always ask Bruce if he'd given it any particular thought.

Is there anything more specific than this given? I don't own these books, but I'd love to be able to pinpoint this location down as near as possible to where the book specifies it.


I'll give it a look tonight, if I can find the book (I am pretty sure I still own that novel, but I'm not 100% on it). It does give a pretty good idea on where it was, IIRC.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Cthulhudrew » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:17 am

Okay, found it. It's from Dragonking of Mystara, pp. 150-156 or so. The location is called Darmouk, and it may not necessarily be a Blackmoorian location, but it is at the very least contemporaneous with it. Some highlights:

There were conflicting legends about the origins of this place among those few who knew of its existence. Some called it Darmouk, the ruins of the last surviving city of the dwarves before the fall of Blackmoor. The dwarves themselves believed that Kagyar had created their race to cope with the new world created by the Rain of Fire.


So, if it was a dwarvish city, it was the pre-GRoF dwarves, and not the modern dwarves who had their memories altered by Kagyar when he recreated them.

The entrance spiraled down into the depths... the main cavern of Darmouk was so vast that it made even the caverns of Dengar seem small in comparison. Unlike Dengar, it wasn't a natural cavern but a single immense, carved chamber, perfectly oval in shape, five miles in length, and more than two miles wide. The ceilings rose more than 400 yards above the terraced floors. Great arches of white stone supported the curved dome of the ceiling. Even as formidable as this underground city was, the great destruction of the Rain of Fire had nearly ruined it. The tall, graceful buildings had mostly collapsed in wreckage during the fall of Blackmoor, and two large portions of the ceiling had collapsed when the supporting beams failed, crushing large parts of the city beneath landslides of stone.


As to its location, there isn't as much definitive that I thought. The best is a vague description as Sir Kirbey and Seldaek head towards it:

... he descended quickly from a high pass in the eastern mountains of Rockhome, just above the cool, wet lowlands of the Northern Reaches... The surrounding mountains were steep, stark, and barren, all the same dull gray-brown in color. They descended into a great valley, shaped like a long oval basin set amid the mountains, filled with dense woods of tall pines... In the very center of the valley, almost completely surrounded by a cluster of lakes of still, oily-looking water, stood a short, saw-toothed ridge of dark stone that resembled the plates of a dragon's crest.


The city of Darmouk is located in the caverns deep beneath this ridge.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:23 am

... he descended quickly from a high pass in the eastern mountains of Rockhome, just above the cool, wet lowlands of the Northern Reaches... The surrounding mountains were steep, stark, and barren, all the same dull gray-brown in color. They descended into a great valley, shaped like a long oval basin set amid the mountains, filled with dense woods of tall pines...

I think this description could narrow down the location pretty well. The reference to cool, wet lowlands of the Northern Reaches, probably refers to the Great Marsh. There are 3 hexes of hills just west of Snowvale Valley (Snowvale is in the Northern Reaches, but the 3 hill hexes are in Rockhome). On the Shimmering Lands map that valley is 3 or 4 hexes to the NW of Kohlgor. That could be the location... although it is bisected by a river... but that doesn't negate the possibility of 3 smaller lakes.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Cthulhudrew » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:09 am

The Great Marsh occurred to me as well, not the least because one of the modern era's great dragons - Jargnir - makes its lair there.

Another possibility could be Druuwmet, from the same article, which is described as being a fortress built millenia past. It's located south of Rhoona.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:05 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:Another possibility could be Druuwmet, from the same article, which is described as being a fortress built millenia past. It's located south of Rhoona.

It's possible that the location could be south of Rhoona, but I actually think there's more evidence for the other location. The sticking point for me is the mention of wet lowlands. The terrain east of Rhoona is mostly hilly, which I'm not sure would be described as lowlands.

There are some other differences as well. Darmouk is described as a single vast cavern - not natural but carved... but it seems to imply that the settlement is entirely underground. Druuwmet on the other hand is described as an ancient fortress - a fortress with a "cavernous hall" in the keep... but it seems that in this case everything is built above ground, and not below it.

However, if the two are different, that would indicate that there is more than one (Blackmoorian era) location in the Northern Reaches/Makres Mountain range. And even if they are different sites, they may still be related.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Havard » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:54 am

Just allow me to say that this is super-interesting.

I like the idea of having two ancient Dwarven fortresses in the Northern Reaches. Or Druuwmet could be a Troll Fortress, a rival to the Dwarven Fortress of Darmouk?

I am wondering if we could link Darmouk to the dwarves of Blackmoor somehow. Perhaps it was founded by Uberstar Kazakhum's brother or something?

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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:44 am

I updated the Map of Blackmoorian Locations in BC 2300, adding the two sites (Darmouk and Druumet) in yellow.

Havard wrote:Or Druuwmet could be a Troll Fortress, a rival to the Dwarven Fortress of Darmouk?

I'm thinking something similar, though tending toward giant, since the keep is large enough to fit a dragon comfortably. It is also very cold, (even in the modern era) and frost giants help guard it for the dragon. This might have been a frost giant fortress even before the Troll Queen came to power in Grondheim - and one that dwarves migrating down from the north would have had to content with.

The description of Druuwmet aslo states that the fortress is ancient, but this doesn't necessarily make it a contemporary of Blackmoor. If it was originally built by giants, it could have been constructed after the GRoF - in the 2300 BC setting, this is when giants thrive, so that makes a lot of sense.

Havard wrote:I am wondering if we could link Darmouk to the dwarves of Blackmoor somehow. Perhaps it was founded by Uberstar Kazakhum's brother or something?

This is definitely a possibility. Another might be that it is a gnomish settlement. The problem (again for the 2300 BC setting) would be that dwarves are said to have migrated to this area from the north. It's still possible that some small community of dwarves managed to survive the destruction of Darmouk, and it's also possible that their presence is what urged other dwarves to migrate to the area. The big question would be 1) did they ever try to reclaim the city? and 2) if not, why?

Regardless, whether originally a dwarven or gnomish city, Darmouk was definitely a contemporary of Blackmoor, and I like the idea that whoever fled the destruction of that settlement could have had some hand in helping to create the Shimmering Lands.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Cthulhudrew » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:51 pm

Chimpman wrote:
Havard wrote:Or Druuwmet could be a Troll Fortress, a rival to the Dwarven Fortress of Darmouk?

I'm thinking something similar, though tending toward giant, since the keep is large enough to fit a dragon comfortably. It is also very cold, (even in the modern era) and frost giants help guard it for the dragon. This might have been a frost giant fortress even before the Troll Queen came to power in Grondheim - and one that dwarves migrating down from the north would have had to content with.


A giant-constructed fortress would certainly be fitting, given the location and the (brief) history of giants in the north as given in Gaz7. I should note, though, that even Darmouk was large enough to accomodate a dragon- several of them, in fact, as it is where the rogue dragons (those that defied the Council in Norwold) made their home. The palace of Darmouk was the lair of the draconic leader of the rogues.

This is definitely a possibility. Another might be that it is a gnomish settlement. The problem (again for the 2300 BC setting) would be that dwarves are said to have migrated to this area from the north. It's still possible that some small community of dwarves managed to survive the destruction of Darmouk, and it's also possible that their presence is what urged other dwarves to migrate to the area. The big question would be 1) did they ever try to reclaim the city? and 2) if not, why?


I suspect the reason they never attempted to reclaim the city is as given in the novel- that they have no racial memory of the place. As far as they are concerned, they only came into history when Kagyar created them, which would have been in the post-GRoF timeframe. Since he wiped their memories of the time before that, they have no recollection of Darmouk, nor any particular ancestral connection to it. Dwarven stubbornness probably leads them to reject any scholastic evidence that they ever lived there in pre-Dengar days. The possible proximity of the area to the Sphere of Oblivion in Nithia might further muddle the issue (particularly when one considers Nithian expansion in the Northern Reaches, particularly the regions closer to Ylaruam itself.)
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:I suspect the reason they never attempted to reclaim the city is as given in the novel- that they have no racial memory of the place. As far as they are concerned, they only came into history when Kagyar created them, which would have been in the post-GRoF timeframe. Since he wiped their memories of the time before that, they have no recollection of Darmouk, nor any particular ancestral connection to it. Dwarven stubbornness probably leads them to reject any scholastic evidence that they ever lived there in pre-Dengar days. The possible proximity of the area to the Sphere of Oblivion in Nithia might further muddle the issue (particularly when one considers Nithian expansion in the Northern Reaches, particularly the regions closer to Ylaruam itself.)

That could explain why modern era dwarves never reclaimed Darmouk. I'm wondering more about the dwarves between BC 3000 and BC 1800. These have not been modified by Kagyar yet, and would certainly have remembered the place... and might even have tried to reclaim it during those 2200 years.

However, since there are no dwarves in there in modern times then one of several possibilities must have happened:

1) Dwarves did reclaim Darmouk, but after Kagyar modified them, he removed them from the area and they never went back. This might contradict the modern day description of Darmouk though since the dwarves would have had a few thousand years to clean the place up after the damage caused by the GRoF... and it doesn't seem that they did this.

2) Dwarves left Darmouk after the cave-in and never came back. Perhaps they determined the cavern wasn't stable enough anymore and condemned the place.

3) Dwarves tried to reclaim Darmouk sometime after the GRoF, but were somehow prevented from doing so.

As far as BC 2300 is concerned, option 3 is the most interesting. If we go this route, then it might warrant placing a ruin symbol on the map at that location (though the ruin would technically be underground).

Druuwmet would also probably be abandoned at this point, since the dwarves have only recently defeated the giants and pushed them out of these lands... but it might become a rallying point for their enemies as certain frost giant clans try to reclaim their ancestral home.

By the way, these discussions are great! They are really giving me plenty of fodder for adventure ideas. :D
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Cthulhudrew » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:15 pm

I don't see it notated in the TImeline by Daniel Boese on the Vaults, and I don't have Gaz7 handy at work with me right now, but I wonder if there might be something mentioned (if not specifically dated) in the history section of Gaz7 that might help account for why no dwarves attempted to reclaim Darmouk? Perhaps involving the migrations of giants or trolls or gnolls that are discussed there (albeit that- in the case of gnolls and trolls- are contradicted by a large bulk of canon as opposed to that singular source).

The orcs didn't really bother the dwarves until much later (with the Wogarian migrations), but perhaps some other humanoids.

Of course, we are also unaware of how long the dragons have used Darmouk as a refuge by the time of the Dragonlord series (c. 5th century AC). If they'd have moved in shortly after the GRoF devastated the city and caused its evacuation, then their presence alone would have been a pretty hefty deterrent against retaking it.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:50 pm

I'm not sure there's a whole lot in the Gaz7 timeline between BC 3000 and BC 2500, and the trolls and giants don't move into the area (or back into the area) until after the dwarves are modified by Kagyar anyway (circa BC 1700).

I was thinking more along the line of dragons occupying the cavern, or if not dragons, then something else either really big or really evil - enough to hold off the dwarves for centuries. If that was the case then they may have written Darmouk off by the time Kagyar changes them, and thus, that's why they have no racial memory of the place (or perhaps even an ingrained drive to stay away from it).
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby xoronthran » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:51 am

Regarding the dwarves not reclaiming Darmouk - perhaps it was cursed when they lost it or they have a superstition of never re-claiming fortresses lost to an enemy because in some way they are considered to have been defiled.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Yaztromo » Thu May 11, 2017 1:16 am

How about the Falun Caves in the Norther Reaches?
Probably it's not directly a Blackmoorian location, but some of the technology in it (Gnomish and later Kobold) is at least derived from Blackmoorian.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Thu May 11, 2017 4:26 pm

Yaztromo wrote:How about the Falun Caves in the Norther Reaches?
Probably it's not directly a Blackmoorian location, but some of the technology in it (Gnomish and later Kobold) is at least derived from Blackmoorian.

:D Strangely enough this is something I'm looking at right now for a Threshold project. More specifically, what is the relationship between Falun Caves and the location known as Darmouk (which is directly a Blackmoorian era location). One possibility is that if the Falun Cavern gnomes and kobolds do have Blackmoorian technology (an idea I'm starting to like ;) ), then it's likely that the technology originally came from Darmouk.

Actually that's one thing I need to do some more research on. Does anyone out there have any info about the Falun Cavern gnomes or kobolds? I know they were mentioned in Gaz 7 but are there any other resources?

This also ties in with the Shadowdeep project - trying to pinpoint the region of these two underground locations.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Yaztromo » Fri May 12, 2017 2:28 am

Not in canon, but here is what I made of it in my games: http://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/vie ... 903#p18903
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Sturm » Fri May 12, 2017 4:07 pm

I think the Falun cavern were supposed to be in Southern Soderfjord. There is a Kobolds tag in the far east near the sea.
Darmouk instead could be in the territory of Druuwor (a lair 24 miles south of Rhoona here: http://pandius.com/whoswho.html) in the Makkres mountain of Rockhome, which also have a Kobolds tag near the border with Vestland.
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Re: Blackmoorian locations in BC 2300

Postby Chimpman » Sat May 13, 2017 12:48 am

Sturm wrote:I think the Falun cavern were supposed to be in Southern Soderfjord. There is a Kobolds tag in the far east near the sea.
Darmouk instead could be in the territory of Druuwor (a lair 24 miles south of Rhoona here: http://pandius.com/whoswho.html) in the Makkres mountain of Rockhome, which also have a Kobolds tag near the border with Vestland.

Based on the description of Druuwor's lair in that article, it sounds like it is a fortress built on the surface of the Makkres Mountains. I'm not sure that jives well with Darmouk being a facility built deep underground by the ancient dwarves. I suppose that there could be a connection between the two, but that also isn't supported by the description of Darmouk - nowhere does it mention a surface fortress... in fact it is very specific about the surface features in the area above Darmouk, and all of them appear to be "natural" rather than man-made.

I suspect that Darmouk is instead located in southern Soderfjord, possibly between the Hardanger Mountains and the Great Marsh. That would put Darmouk and Falun in the same general area. Also Darmouk is described as having several cavern systems above it (before the main hollowed out area is reached), and one of those caverns could be Falun.

Having said that, both locations could be Blackmoor era facilities. But to me the one at Druuwmet sounds like it was made by the Blackmoorians (humans) rather than by the dwarves.
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