[Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

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[Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Mon May 04, 2015 11:45 pm

I've given this thread the hostile sounding name: "Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel", but what I'd really like to see is a way to create a crossover-campaign that could link Scarred Lands to Planescape.

I started a discussion about creating/expanding Scarnspace (the fanon Scarred Lands/Spelljammer crossover setting) in the Scarred Lands forum and Edge of Infinity: The Scarred Planes got mentioned as something that has a few mentions of objects in the sky (mostly the constellations).
Image

I had a look through the book. It says this in the Preface on page 3:
Edge of Infinity: The Scarred Planes: Preface wrote:This book uses the rules for planes as laid out in the v. 3.5 DMG. So the rules are familiar, but the content is all-new. This makes for a different book, than many that exist about planes. We aren't presenting the One True Cosmology of your campaign. The planes are infinate, making the job of creating a diagram that demonstrates how one plane ends and another begins problematic at best (in fact, the very source of this book's title).


I like that comment about this not being the "One True Cosmology". That seems to suggest that it would not be impossible to somehow connect The Edge of Infinity to The Great Wheel. Then you have this, in the "Truth Subjectivity and Game Mechanics" sidebar on page 5:
Edge of Infinity: The Scarred Planes: Chapter One: Cosmology of The Scarred Lands: Truth Subjectivity and Game Mechanics wrote:These truths are presented using terminolgy and expressions found in the v.3.5 DMG, Chapter 5: Campaigns. For the most part, they are game mechanical in nature and affect the way that the characters interact with the planes and their denizens. By using these standard terms, the GM can be certain that the material presented here can be dropped into any campaign with a minimum of fuss.


So, this book can be "dropped into any campaign" I'm wondering how well it can be dropped into a Planescape campaign.

And I'm wondering how well Planescape books could be added to a Scarred Lands campaign that used Edge of Infinity as the local interpretation of cosmology. That is the "truth" that Edge of Infinity sidebar talks about, as the book has deliberate inconsistencies in it, that would allow a GM to decide that the Conventacle of Ancients and the White Temple Tradition have got it wrong.

I've had a few conversations about the variant cosmologies mentions in 3e D&D products (usually they keep the Inner Planes and Transitive Planes the same and then monkey around with the Outer Planes) and I think of these cosmological models as "Wonky Wheel Cosmologies" (distorted versions of The Great Wheel Cosmology, that are similar enough to be used with The Great Wheel).

Anyhoo, with that sort of thing in mind, has anyone ever tried using Edge of Infinity: The Scarred Planes and Planescape together?

What do you think works well? What do they have in common?

What does not fit so well? What do they do differently?
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Mon May 04, 2015 11:45 pm

I got a bit frustrated by the fact that the Contents of Edge of Infinity: The Scarred Planes is pretty much just a list of chapters. So I decided to create my own expanded Contents page here, in this post:
Table of Contents


There are some new names of plane types here, but this is how I think the Scarred Lands Cosmology lines up with the D&D Cosmology:
Edge of Infinity Planes vs Planescape Planes


I hope that this expanded Contents list and this Scarred Lands to Planescape "plane conversion table" helps the discussion. :)
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Cliffrice » Tue May 05, 2015 1:32 am

Sure it could. Pick any planar metropolis. There could be a version of the city of brass on the plane of fire for scarn.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue May 05, 2015 1:33 am

Very little, if any, conversion is necessary. The planes described in Edge of Infinity are mostly identical to the Great Wheel planes except that the history and gods of the Scarred Lands are much more important. This can be chalked up to parochialism. It's not like, for example, the Eberron planes, which were deliberately made very different from the standard Great Wheel and require some conceptual gymnastics to reconcile. The Scarred Lands planes were designed to be basically as much like the familiar Great Wheel planes as possible without violating the terms of the SRD, but described in a way that makes it seem as if the world of Scarn is the most important place in the multiverse.

I mean, there are a few differences, but you can decide to use either one or the other without affecting much. For example, the Eternal Void is obviously the same thing as the Negative Energy Plane, but Edge of Infinity says it borders all other planes (except for the Positive Energy Plane) and looks like a decayed version of the plane that it touches in its border regions. This is a pretty cool idea; it's different from the Planescape version in that the Planescape version of the Negative Energy Plane only borders the elemental planes, the paraelemental planes, and the Ethereal. So you can either decide that in your campaign, the Negative Energy Plane has a lot of other border regions, or ignore that bit.

Similarly, the Highest Brilliance (the Positive Energy Plane) is described as looking like a parallel of Scarn, where in Planescape it's a void of light and energy with the occasional floating tower or crystalline formation. You might find the Scarred Lands version to be more useful, since there's more to do there, or you might prefer the "purer," less hospitable Planescape version.

Mostly I'd use Edge of Infinity by taking the named realms and locations from the planes there and sticking them into Planescape planes.

Here's which plane corresponds to which, if it isn't obvious:

The Eternal Void = Negative Energy Plane
The Highest Brilliance = Positive Energy Plane
The Deepest Sky = Elemental Plane of Air. You'd have to decide whether all djinn were turned fractious and bitter by the Titan's War, or just the ones that most commonly deal with Scarn.
The Vault of Earth = Elemental Plane of Earth. Again, there's a backstory that all the genies were "trapped" in the Elemental Planes after the Titan's War; is this just true of some of them? Does it actually only mean they were unable to access Scarn, while the other worlds were still available to them? Up to you. Maybe only some of the genies were imprisoned, and these are the ones that travelers from Scarn are most likely to meet.
The Great Inferno = Elemental Plane of Fire
The Endless Deep = Elemental Plane of Water
Ethereal Plane = Ethereal Plane
Astral Plane = Astral Plane
Plane of Shadow = Plane of Shadow
Plane of Dreams: This is part of the Ethereal Plane in Planescape, but there's otherwise no real difference.
The Mithral Heaven = Mount Celestia. Obviously, in Planescape Corean's realm would only be one small part of it, and Corean's house wouldn't be on top of the highest mountain on the plane, but instead probably on top of a lesser peak on the fourth layer.
The Golden Paradise = Elysium
The Eternal Glade = Arborea
The Timeless Vault = Mechanus. Aureon would be one gear on this plane.
The Howling Limbo = Limbo
The Iron Hells = Baator. I'd put Chardun's realm on the first layer. Some devils serve Chardun, but obviously not all of them. The Gorge of Perdition might penetrate into the next three layers (Dis, Minauros, Phlegethos). Dier Myrstate might be located on the second layer.
The Black Lands = The Gray Waste. I'd put Belsameth on the first layer of the plane. Sethris the Spider Queen might dwell on the second layer.
The Pestilential Abyss = The Abyss

The Zodiacal Planes are demiplanes.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby haazeven » Tue May 05, 2015 1:45 am

The Vault of Earth = Elemental Plane of Earth. Again, there's a backstory that all the genies were "trapped" in the Elemental Planes after the Titan's War; is this just true of some of them? Does it actually only mean they were unable to access Scarn, while the other worlds were still available to them? Up to you. Maybe only some of the genies were imprisoned, and these are the ones that travelers from Scarn are most likely to meet.
Just to add to this, there is a subplot involving the returns of the genie described in Slaracians: Echoes of the Past, which leads to a certain number of (massive?) consequences over the setting.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Thu May 07, 2015 12:45 pm

Cliffrice wrote:Sure it could. Pick any planar metropolis. There could be a version of the city of brass on the plane of fire for scarn.


I'm pretty sure I saw the City of Brass mentioned. :)

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen multiple campaign settings refer to the City of Brass.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Thu May 07, 2015 12:51 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Very little, if any, conversion is necessary. The planes described in Edge of Infinity are mostly identical to the Great Wheel planes except that the history and gods of the Scarred Lands are much more important. This can be chalked up to parochialism. It's not like, for example, the Eberron planes, which were deliberately made very different from the standard Great Wheel and require some conceptual gymnastics to reconcile. The Scarred Lands planes were designed to be basically as much like the familiar Great Wheel planes as possible without violating the terms of the SRD, but described in a way that makes it seem as if the world of Scarn is the most important place in the multiverse.


I think you are right there.

(I do think it is a shame that there was not a SRD cosmology, as detailed as The Great Wheel, for everyone to share.)

It sounds like the Scarred Lands designers did what they did to make it into a Great Wheel clone.

ripvanwormer wrote:I mean, there are a few differences, but you can decide to use either one or the other without affecting much. For example, the Eternal Void is obviously the same thing as the Negative Energy Plane, but Edge of Infinity says it borders all other planes (except for the Positive Energy Plane) and looks like a decayed version of the plane that it touches in its border regions. This is a pretty cool idea; it's different from the Planescape version in that the Planescape version of the Negative Energy Plane only borders the elemental planes, the paraelemental planes, and the Ethereal. So you can either decide that in your campaign, the Negative Energy Plane has a lot of other border regions, or ignore that bit.

Similarly, the Highest Brilliance (the Positive Energy Plane) is described as looking like a parallel of Scarn, where in Planescape it's a void of light and energy with the occasional floating tower or crystalline formation. You might find the Scarred Lands version to be more useful, since there's more to do there, or you might prefer the "purer," less hospitable Planescape version.

I'm trying to remember if Planescape used the "Inner Planes are local to each Material Plane" model, or if they are all one big thing. If a GM used Inner Planes as something that only existed within each crystal sphere, that would solve the problem of choosing how the Eternal Void works vs the Negative Energy Plane. :)

ripvanwormer wrote:Mostly I'd use Edge of Infinity by taking the named realms and locations from the planes there and sticking them into Planescape planes.

Here's which plane corresponds to which, if it isn't obvious:

The Eternal Void = Negative Energy Plane
The Highest Brilliance = Positive Energy Plane
The Deepest Sky = Elemental Plane of Air. You'd have to decide whether all djinn were turned fractious and bitter by the Titan's War, or just the ones that most commonly deal with Scarn.
The Vault of Earth = Elemental Plane of Earth. Again, there's a backstory that all the genies were "trapped" in the Elemental Planes after the Titan's War; is this just true of some of them? Does it actually only mean they were unable to access Scarn, while the other worlds were still available to them? Up to you. Maybe only some of the genies were imprisoned, and these are the ones that travelers from Scarn are most likely to meet.
The Great Inferno = Elemental Plane of Fire
The Endless Deep = Elemental Plane of Water
Ethereal Plane = Ethereal Plane
Astral Plane = Astral Plane
Plane of Shadow = Plane of Shadow
Plane of Dreams: This is part of the Ethereal Plane in Planescape, but there's otherwise no real difference.
The Mithral Heaven = Mount Celestia. Obviously, in Planescape Corean's realm would only be one small part of it, and Corean's house wouldn't be on top of the highest mountain on the plane, but instead probably on top of a lesser peak on the fourth layer.
The Golden Paradise = Elysium
The Eternal Glade = Arborea
The Timeless Vault = Mechanus. Aureon would be one gear on this plane.
The Howling Limbo = Limbo
The Iron Hells = Baator. I'd put Chardun's realm on the first layer. Some devils serve Chardun, but obviously not all of them. The Gorge of Perdition might penetrate into the next three layers (Dis, Minauros, Phlegethos). Dier Myrstate might be located on the second layer.
The Black Lands = The Gray Waste. I'd put Belsameth on the first layer of the plane. Sethris the Spider Queen might dwell on the second layer.
The Pestilential Abyss = The Abyss

The Zodiacal Planes are demiplanes.


Thanks for that. I figured some of that out by myself, but the Outer Planes were fairly complex.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Thu May 07, 2015 12:53 pm

haazeven wrote:
The Vault of Earth = Elemental Plane of Earth. Again, there's a backstory that all the genies were "trapped" in the Elemental Planes after the Titan's War; is this just true of some of them? Does it actually only mean they were unable to access Scarn, while the other worlds were still available to them? Up to you. Maybe only some of the genies were imprisoned, and these are the ones that travelers from Scarn are most likely to meet.
Just to add to this, there is a subplot involving the returns of the genie described in Slaracians: Echoes of the Past, which leads to a certain number of (massive?) consequences over the setting.


Hmm. Big world changing events.

I guess the Titan War was a bit like the Time of Troubles (from Forgotten Realms). Is this on a similar scale to The Spellplage (from FR)? Or is it smaller than that?
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu May 07, 2015 9:51 pm

Big Mac wrote:Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen multiple campaign settings refer to the City of Brass.


A lot of them do.

Al-Qadim, obviously. Most prominently in the Secrets of the Lamp boxed set.
Hackmaster, most prominently in Sir Robilar's City of Brass.
Mage: The Ascension. Beyond the Barriers, page 140. Lost Paths, page 111. These sound like two different places with the same name, though. The Lost Paths one is ruled by the genies.
Greyhawk. Greyhawk Adventures, page 97. Dungeon Master's Guide (1st edition), page 156.
Wilderlands. "The World of the Wilderlands of High Adventure," page 4. Player's Guide to the Wilderlands, page 35.
Golarion. The Great Beyond, pages 19-20. Described in more detail in the adventure The Impossible Eye.
Necromancer Games. City of Brass boxed set.
Scarred Lands. Edge of Infinity, page 28.
Planescape, most prominently in The Inner Planes.
Nentir Vale, by association with The Plane Below.
Mystara has a City of Brass in Gaz 2 The Emirates of Ylaruam, but it's an accursed ancient mortal city rather than the capital of the efreet.

Big Mac wrote:I'm trying to remember if Planescape used the "Inner Planes are local to each Material Plane" model, or if they are all one big thing.


In Planescape, they're all one big thing. Planescape has one set of Inner Planes, one Ethereal Plane, one Prime Material Plane, one set of Outer Planes, and one Astral Plane that all worlds share.

Some Dark Sun supplements gave Athas its own unique set of paraelemental planes, but Planescape ignored that. Notably, The Inner Planes sourcebook for Planescape included portals to Athas in the standard paraelemental and quasielemental planes.

If a GM used Inner Planes as something that only existed within each crystal sphere, that would solve the problem of choosing how the Eternal Void works vs the Negative Energy Plane. :)


That seems like a lot of needless duplication for the sake of something that isn't even a problem. The question of whether the Eternal Void borders every plane or just the elemental and ethereal planes doesn't make a difference to anything in Edge of Infinity, and wouldn't really make a difference to anything in Planescape either. If you want to develop negative energy border regions for the Astral and outer planes, go for it. If you don't want to, Edge of Infinity is still just as useful. It's just one line in the text that you can take or leave as you will.

I guess cosmological redundancy is a pet peeve of mine. Why put two more or less identical Elemental Planes of Fire in the same multiverse when you can just have one, enriched by connections to multiple worlds? I feel like if you have more than one, you have to emphasize the differences to make it worthwhile, and it seems like a lot of work making one elemental plane meaningfully different from the other, with different rulers, different hierarchies, and different geographical features. And then that raises the question of how the different elemental planes get along with one another, and how easy it is to travel between them. It's a huge can of worms for not much benefit that I can see.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby haazeven » Thu May 07, 2015 11:38 pm

Big Mac wrote:
haazeven wrote:Just to add to this, there is a subplot involving the returns of the genie described in Slaracians: Echoes of the Past, which leads to a certain number of (massive?) consequences over the setting.


Hmm. Big world changing events.

I guess the Titan War was a bit like the Time of Troubles (from Forgotten Realms). Is this on a similar scale to The Spellplage (from FR)? Or is it smaller than that?

Note sure about the comparison (I do not know enough about the FR to speak about it), but basically Mesos comes back, probably under the control of the slaracians, so you can imagine than it should look like a second Divine War. The book in question (Slaracians) shows a tentative timeline (not mandatory of course, but it is the closest thing to an "official" timeline which essentially shows the return of the slaracians, and if I remember correctly they manage to reconstruct Mesos with psionic-infused crysatl and use its body as a host, or something like this. The timeline goes until the return of Mesos, after which it's up to you ^^
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Sun May 10, 2015 3:25 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen multiple campaign settings refer to the City of Brass.


A lot of them do.

Al-Qadim, obviously. Most prominently in the Secrets of the Lamp boxed set.
Hackmaster, most prominently in Sir Robilar's City of Brass.
Mage: The Ascension. Beyond the Barriers, page 140. Lost Paths, page 111. These sound like two different places with the same name, though. The Lost Paths one is ruled by the genies.
Greyhawk. Greyhawk Adventures, page 97. Dungeon Master's Guide (1st edition), page 156.
Wilderlands. "The World of the Wilderlands of High Adventure," page 4. Player's Guide to the Wilderlands, page 35.
Golarion. The Great Beyond, pages 19-20. Described in more detail in the adventure The Impossible Eye.
Necromancer Games. City of Brass boxed set.
Scarred Lands. Edge of Infinity, page 28.
Planescape, most prominently in The Inner Planes.
Nentir Vale, by association with The Plane Below.
Mystara has a City of Brass in Gaz 2 The Emirates of Ylaruam, but it's an accursed ancient mortal city rather than the capital of the efreet.


Thanks for that. I'm guessing that with the Necromancer Games boxed set having the Sword & Sorcery Studios logo on the cover, it would be more likely that the Edge of Infinity designers would want to tie into that version as the "official version". But considering that is pretty expensive, I might have to go with whatever I get hold of.

I'm not sure what Onyx Path might do if they publish anything new that deals with the Scarred Planes.

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I'm trying to remember if Planescape used the "Inner Planes are local to each Material Plane" model, or if they are all one big thing.


In Planescape, they're all one big thing. Planescape has one set of Inner Planes, one Ethereal Plane, one Prime Material Plane, one set of Outer Planes, and one Astral Plane that all worlds share.


I'm trying to remember if the 1e Manual of the Planes did that differently. I'm pretty sure I saw something that suggested that Inner Planes were localised to specific Prime Material Planes.

ripvanwormer wrote:Some Dark Sun supplements gave Athas its own unique set of paraelemental planes, but Planescape ignored that. Notably, The Inner Planes sourcebook for Planescape included portals to Athas in the standard paraelemental and quasielemental planes.


I'm thinking that The Scarred Planes work the same way as this.

Planescape might dismiss this Dark Sun canon, but I would prefer to find a "Ben Kenobi solution" that makes both Dark Sun and Planescape (and both Scarred Lands and Planescape) right (from a certain point of view) if possible.

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:If a GM used Inner Planes as something that only existed within each crystal sphere, that would solve the problem of choosing how the Eternal Void works vs the Negative Energy Plane. :)


That seems like a lot of needless duplication for the sake of something that isn't even a problem. The question of whether the Eternal Void borders every plane or just the elemental and ethereal planes doesn't make a difference to anything in Edge of Infinity, and wouldn't really make a difference to anything in Planescape either. If you want to develop negative energy border regions for the Astral and outer planes, go for it. If you don't want to, Edge of Infinity is still just as useful. It's just one line in the text that you can take or leave as you will.


I agree. I can see why the designers of Edge of Infinity: The Scarred Planes would need to do certain things differently, but I can't understand why they did that for Dark Sun. :?

ripvanwormer wrote:I guess cosmological redundancy is a pet peeve of mine. Why put two more or less identical Elemental Planes of Fire in the same multiverse when you can just have one, enriched by connections to multiple worlds? I feel like if you have more than one, you have to emphasize the differences to make it worthwhile, and it seems like a lot of work making one elemental plane meaningfully different from the other, with different rulers, different hierarchies, and different geographical features. And then that raises the question of how the different elemental planes get along with one another, and how easy it is to travel between them. It's a huge can of worms for not much benefit that I can see.


OK, having thought about this a bit, how a "Ben Kenobi solution" might work, I think that separate sets of Inner Planes would "break Spelljammer". The azer and efreet can not travel via the phlogiston, so they must have another way to get from sphere to sphere. A single Plane of Fire, that intersects with the Material Plane inside every crystal spheres would work best for a multi-world game (and would make very little difference to individual campaign settings.

If The Scarred Planes are said to be slightly different, I think that could be a localised effect (that works on every plane within Scarnspace). That could be the influence of the Titans and the Gods altering the planes. So it could be the same plane, but slightly different.

The Plane of Dreams could be a demi-plane that is as big as an entire crystal sphere. To the people of Scarn, it would be considered an Inner Plane, but to the planewalkers who come in from outside, it would be something they had not seen elsewhere. (I think that could be a way to shoehorn in bespoke planes in cosmologies.)

I think the number of Outer Planes does not match up, so the extra (Planescape) planes could simply be blocked from connecting to the Material Plane within Scarnspace.

I think that is a way to implement The Scarred Planes, and connect it to Planescape and Spelljammer, without anything needing to be "wrong". :)
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun May 10, 2015 4:55 pm

Big Mac wrote:Thanks for that. I'm guessing that with the Necromancer Games boxed set having the Sword & Sorcery Studios logo on the cover, it would be more likely that the Edge of Infinity designers would want to tie into that version as the "official version". But considering that is pretty expensive, I might have to go with whatever I get hold of.


The Secrets of the Lamp boxed set for Al-Qadim is very good.

I'm trying to remember if the 1e Manual of the Planes did that differently. I'm pretty sure I saw something that suggested that Inner Planes were localised to specific Prime Material Planes.


The first edition Manual of the Planes only included one set of Inner Planes, but gave each alternate Prime Material Plane its own Deep Ethereal. I'm pretty sure Jeff Grubb made that decision so that the Ethereal couldn't be used to travel directly between alternate Primes (which was what the Astral Plane was for in 1e). But there was only one set of Inner Planes, and it was possible to use the Elemental Planes as a conduit between worlds. Some of the Mystara Gazetteers (for example, The Dwarves of Rockhome) even suggest using the Elemental Planes to travel between the AD&D worlds and Mystara.

From a Spelljammer perspective, I think the main concern would be that if planar travel is too easy a way to move from world to world, spelljammer ships are no longer worth using. So you'd probably want to make travel through the elemental planes at least as big of a hassle as navigating a ship through the Phlogiston. Making portals and planar vortices rare, elemental natives fierce and protective of their homes, and travel times lengthy would seem to be the best solution. If you really wanted each sphere to have its own set of planes, I suppose they might each have their own, unrelated set of elemental natives too.

Planescape might dismiss this Dark Sun canon, but I would prefer to find a "Ben Kenobi solution" that makes both Dark Sun and Planescape (and both Scarred Lands and Planescape) right (from a certain point of view) if possible.


Obi-Wan Kenobi was a straight-up liar and I'm glad Darth Vader killed him. But some fans have speculated that the Dark Sun paraelemental planes are just regions within the standard paraelemental or quasielemental planes. The planes might just be different as they "approach" Athas cosmologically.

The Dark Sun paraelements are: Sun (between Air and Fire, where smoke is in the standard cosmology; perhaps a clear region in the Plane of Smoke, with the smoke burnt away by the greater heat of Athas's sun, or else another name for the Plane of Radiance), Magma (between Fire and Earth, as in the standard cosmology), Silt (between Earth and Water, where Ooze is in the standard cosmology; silt and ooze aren't very different conceptually, but Silt can be seen as a dried up form of ooze), and Rain (between Air and Water, where Ice is in the standard cosmology; perhaps the heat of Athas causes the ice to melt in this region).

If The Scarred Planes are said to be slightly different


I don't think the differences are great enough to be worth worrying about. If you keep obsessing over this, I'll tell Darth Vader where your rebel base is and I can't be held responsible for where he aims the Death Star.

The Plane of Dreams could be a demi-plane that is as big as an entire crystal sphere.


In Planescape's A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, the plane of dreams is within the Curtain of Vaporous Color that separates the Border Ethereal from the Deep Ethereal. Dreamscapes continuously form within the curtain, sometimes escaping into the Deep Ethereal and manifesting as small demiplanes.

I think the number of Outer Planes does not match up, so the extra (Planescape) planes could simply be blocked from connecting to the Material Plane within Scarnspace.


Yeah, Edge of Infinity only bothered with the nine main alignments (well, eight, since they didn't bother with true neutral either), rather than the "border planes" the AD&D cosmology has. I don't think the other planes even have to be blocked; it's just that none of the Scarred Lands gods happen to live there. There's no reason a Scarred Land character couldn't visit the other outer planes; they just won't find any of their gods there. Local sages might just consider Bytopia, for example, to be part of the Golden Paradise or an unimportant border region between the Golden Paradise and Mithral Heaven. Or they might know about Bytopia but just not have much to say about it because none of the known gods dwell in it.

Obi-Wan and Darth Vader aside, I just don't think the Scarred Lands cosmology is distinctive enough to make emphasizing the differences worth it in terms of added flavor. Just add the realms from Edge of Infinity to the standard Great Wheel cosmology. If you disagree, I suppose we could schedule a lightsaber battle to decide once and for all who is right.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Sat May 16, 2015 10:22 am

haazeven wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
haazeven wrote:Just to add to this, there is a subplot involving the returns of the genie described in Slaracians: Echoes of the Past, which leads to a certain number of (massive?) consequences over the setting.


Hmm. Big world changing events.

I guess the Titan War was a bit like the Time of Troubles (from Forgotten Realms). Is this on a similar scale to The Spellplage (from FR)? Or is it smaller than that?

Note sure about the comparison (I do not know enough about the FR to speak about it), but basically Mesos comes back, probably under the control of the slaracians, so you can imagine than it should look like a second Divine War. The book in question (Slaracians) shows a tentative timeline (not mandatory of course, but it is the closest thing to an "official" timeline which essentially shows the return of the slaracians, and if I remember correctly they manage to reconstruct Mesos with psionic-infused crysatl and use its body as a host, or something like this. The timeline goes until the return of Mesos, after which it's up to you ^^


Thanks for that.

I wonder if Oynx Path would want to use that sort of thing as the basis of a new Scarred Lands Campaign Setting hardback, where the timeline has moved on a bit.

I'm still learning about the original era, but it might be a way for them to build new content in old locations.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun May 17, 2015 11:07 am

Re: the City of Brass. I should note that Necromancer Games' stuff was entirely separate from the Scarred Lands setting, and even has a different cosmology with unique planes like the Plane of Acid, the Plane of Agony, Infernus, and the Plane of Burning Skies, plus its own pantheon. I think it's actually much simpler to adapt Al-Qadim's City of Brass (from the Secrets of the Lamp box) to Scarred Lands than Necromancer Games' City of Brass.

That said, Necromancer Games' City of Brass is very, very good.
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Re: [Planescape] Edge of Infinity vs The Great Wheel

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:51 am

ripvanwormer wrote:Re: the City of Brass. I should note that Necromancer Games' stuff was entirely separate from the Scarred Lands setting, and even has a different cosmology with unique planes like the Plane of Acid, the Plane of Agony, Infernus, and the Plane of Burning Skies, plus its own pantheon. I think it's actually much simpler to adapt Al-Qadim's City of Brass (from the Secrets of the Lamp box) to Scarred Lands than Necromancer Games' City of Brass.


Perhaps, one day, Onyx Path Publishing and Nocturnal Media will publish a City of Brass product for Scarred Lands. (Or maybe some fans will create a City of Brass netbook.)

ripvanwormer wrote:That said, Necromancer Games' City of Brass is very, very good.


I hear good things about Necromancer Games. But I do think their various product lines had very different vibes to them, so thanks for pointing out the difference.
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