which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Ashtagon's homebrew rules set.
User avatar
Sock Puppet
Troll
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:02 pm
Gender: prefer not to say

which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Sock Puppet » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:47 pm

In an attempt to resurrect this project is thought I'd investigate reroll systems. Which of these would you prefer? Which is more fun?.

A) you can spend a fate point before making your roll. When you do so, roll twice and take the best result.

B) after rolling the die and seeing the number rolled, but before knowing if this was a success or failure, you may spend a fate point and roll again. You must accept the second roll, even if it is worse.

C)after rolling the die and being told the result, you may spend a fate point and roll again. You must accept the second roll, even if it is worse.
I am Ashtagon's sock puppet account.

User avatar
Angelika Tatsu
Goblin Girl
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:11 pm
Gender: female
Location: Goblin Hole

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Angelika Tatsu » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:59 pm

I like A the best.
In affectus veritá.

User avatar
Ashtagon
Hierarch
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:45 pm
Gender: female
Location: Hillvale, Isle of Dawn
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Ashtagon » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:08 pm

I meant to highlight that I am particularly interested in reasons why one might be better than another. While probability analysis is useful, more important are reasons why one would be ore fun than another.

(Apologies for not saying so earlier; posting by phone is not the most convenient thing ever.)
Emma Rome, otherwise known as Ashtagon
Image
Overall site admin for The Piazza. My moderator colour is pink!

User avatar
RobJN
Dire Flumph
Posts: 3682
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 10:33 pm
Gender: male
Location: Texas, USA
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by RobJN » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:21 pm

Sock Puppet wrote:In an attempt to resurrect this project is thought I'd investigate reroll systems. Which of these would you prefer? Which is more fun?.

A) you can spend a fate point before making your roll. When you do so, roll twice and take the best result.

B) after rolling the die and seeing the number rolled, but before knowing if this was a success or failure, you may spend a fate point and roll again. You must accept the second roll, even if it is worse.

C)after rolling the die and being told the result, you may spend a fate point and roll again. You must accept the second roll, even if it is worse.
A looks to me like it would be the Most Fun, in the long term.

B and C, though, could have their places -- perhaps major villains or "Boss" monsters/chieftains have their own fate points, spending theirs to force a PC to "re-roll and take this other result" type of mechanic. (if not applying to a hit roll, then perhaps making the PCs re-roll damage?)
Rob
Thorn's Chronicle: The Thread Index|Thorn's Chronicle Blog
My articles at the Vaults of Pandius; My W.O.I.N. adventure in ENWorld's EONS Patreon #56.
Follow Thorn's Chronicle on Facebook | G+ | twitter

User avatar
Ashtagon
Hierarch
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:45 pm
Gender: female
Location: Hillvale, Isle of Dawn
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Ashtagon » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:43 pm

Also, if you think some other re-roll mechanism would be fun to play, by all means suggest it.
Emma Rome, otherwise known as Ashtagon
Image
Overall site admin for The Piazza. My moderator colour is pink!

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 22527
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:41 pm

Sock Puppet wrote:Which of these would you prefer? Which is more fun?.
A is definitely the most fun.

B and C are based on rerolling what look like bad rolls, so they might be statistically better, but they feel more like "cheating" to me.

A feels more like a mechanic for "doubling your luck". And it's not so much a reroll as a "double-roll".
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Angelika Tatsu
Goblin Girl
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:11 pm
Gender: female
Location: Goblin Hole

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Angelika Tatsu » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:30 pm

Ashtagon wrote:I meant to highlight that I am particularly interested in reasons why one might be better than another. While probability analysis is useful, more important are reasons why one would be ore fun than another.
A provides a little bit more control over the outcome and would be more entertaining and fun to use.
In affectus veritá.

User avatar
Ashtagon
Hierarch
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:45 pm
Gender: female
Location: Hillvale, Isle of Dawn
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Ashtagon » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:24 pm

I must admit, the responses were not what I expected.

A) has the simplest decision tree, in that the only decision is made before any dice are rolled, and the only decision is "Do I spend my boost now or not?"

B) in my mind has the most complicated decision tree, in that first there is the decision of whether or not it is an important enough roll to spend a boost on, and second, depending on what was originally rolled, there's the decision on whether or not you think it succeeded or not. It leaves open the idea that you might choose not to spend a reroll if your first roll was, say, a 16. However, due to the more complicated decision involved, and that the player must decide before the GM reveals what the roll means for their success, it will take the longest time to play out.

C) is similar to B, except that you already know that your original attempt was a fail. However, it leaves open the possibility of gaining a critical hit (or critical fumble) with a re-roll.
Emma Rome, otherwise known as Ashtagon
Image
Overall site admin for The Piazza. My moderator colour is pink!

User avatar
willpell
Black Dragon
Posts: 2833
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:10 pm
Gender: male

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by willpell » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:12 am

The answer would depend on how rare of a resource fate points are. A is a strict upgrade, and makes the most sense if they are a very rare "pure awesome" resource, akin to Eberron's "you are a pulp hero" vibe (I forget what the points are called, but this was explicitly the reason you got them). However, I'm personally more of a fan of the idea suggested by B, which is that you're "beseeching the Lady" for better luck, and risking that She punishes you for the presumption. This built-in downside makes the usage less obvious, and thus offers more potential for drama (I was going to say it was "more fun", but fun is too subjective; not everyone *wants* drama, or uncertainty, but roleplayers in general tend toward enjoying it, although players of nearly every other RPG trend thus harder than D&D/PF/etc. types). You could afford to give a few more of these "luck points" than of the Eberron-style "hero points", since players would self-limit a bit more in applying them.

C is clearly the least desirable to me; I would only wish to use this for some form of prophetic divination, where the failed roll actually represents an alternate timeline or potential future, which your character visualizes and then consciously averts. To use it in any "normal" context would absolutely feel cheaty and lame to me. The whole point of dice is to make things interesting by adding uncertainty to the outcome (well, that and providing inspiration and assistance to DMs who are a little short on ideas that week, as with the "random encounter" and similar tables). Being able to improve the *roll* is one thing, since you're only altering the out-of-game abstraction, but altering the *final outcome*, after the roll is fully adjudicated into in-game "reality", is quite another.

User avatar
Ashtagon
Hierarch
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:45 pm
Gender: female
Location: Hillvale, Isle of Dawn
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Ashtagon » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:02 am

Eberron's equivalent resource are called Action Points, and their rules are repeated in the d20 SRD. Eberron's action points are 5 + 1/2 character level per level. You don't normally gain any between levels except by GM fiat (i.e., reward for good role-playing or a "GM special"). Spending an action point typically adds +1d6 to the roll (best one of 2d6 at level8-14; best one of 3d6 at level 15+).

I want my luck points / reroll points / whatever they are called to have a similar maximum limit (5 + 1/2 character level + Charisma modifier, because by the tropes, the story is always more about the charismatic characters). And rather than wait a level for a fresh supply or hope for a GM special, I want them to slowly (1/day if none are used that day) regenerate.

My first thought with "luck points" was that they would provide +1d6 to a roll, with feats unlocking +1d10 to a roll. However, I like the fact that a re-roll mechanic rather than a 'plus# mechanic maintains the 'bounded accuracy' aesthetic (I feel 3.x went wrong by encouraging really big numbers). On the other hand, spending a limited resource seems it could be one of the few cases where breaking the bounded accuracy restriction would be appropriate.

I suppose I could mix, and have both +1d6 and rerolls, but mixing mechanics might increase the complexity of the rules to teh point where players will focus more on rules than on story.
Emma Rome, otherwise known as Ashtagon
Image
Overall site admin for The Piazza. My moderator colour is pink!

User avatar
willpell
Black Dragon
Posts: 2833
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:10 pm
Gender: male

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by willpell » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:17 am

Ashtagon wrote:5 + 1/2 character level + Charisma modifier, because by the tropes, the story is always more about the charismatic characters
makes a face Certainly not my preference of tropes....but you do you, I spoze.
mixing mechanics might increase the complexity of the rules to teh point where players will focus more on rules than on story.
Yeah, they tend to do that already; best not to fuel the fire. :geek:

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Sun May 14, 2017 8:17 am

Adding D "Take the best of two, like A, but after learning the result"
I'd rank them


A
C or D
B

A is my favorite; signals that you're placing extra effort into the test.
C isn't meaningfully different from D in a test situation, since you'd only want to reroll if the first roll was a failure. In a variable-outcome roll, like "how many damage do you deal", it would be.

I'm opposed to B because it implies hidden numbers before the roll, such as hidden AC. My preference is knowing exactly what's at stake when the dice hits the table. "If I roll a nine or higher, this, if eight or lower, that."
Because when we were kids I used to sometimes ask for rolls without a DC in mind because I already had made my mind up what should happen and the die roll was just for show. I don't want to go back to that.

User avatar
Sock Puppet
Troll
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:02 pm
Gender: prefer not to say

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Sock Puppet » Sun May 14, 2017 8:59 am

2097 wrote:Adding D "Take the best of two, like A, but after learning the result"
I'm really unclear about the sequence of events in this plan D. In what order does the various events of rolling die 1, rolling die 2, knowing the significance of each die roll result, and deciding when to spend a fate point come in?
I am Ashtagon's sock puppet account.

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Sun May 14, 2017 1:42 pm

For both C and D:
Roll 1 die.
Find out result, be dissatisfied
Spend point
Roll 1 more die

For C: take second. For D: Take any.

Common to both: If neither die is high enough the FP was wasted.

Anyway, A is still my favorite:
1. Know DC, decides to not trust a single die
2. Spend fp
3. Roll both dice, take any.
Last edited by 2097 on Sun May 14, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Sun May 14, 2017 1:46 pm

To clarify the point of D:
It's one less thing to explain. "Take any die" is one less thing to insist upon compared to "Take the second even if it was lower". Obv the first was low or the player wouldn't've paid for a reroll.

User avatar
Yaztromo
The Real Nowhere Man
Posts: 1010
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 10:55 pm
Gender: male

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Yaztromo » Mon May 15, 2017 1:48 am

I think it depends on how valuable (i.e. difficult or rare to achieve) you wnat to make the fate points.
If fate points are not too difficult to gain and during an adventure you can normally get "a few" (and the spend "a few", as hoarding wouldn't make much sense), I think that A option is by far preferrable, as you realize when the most critical rolls are being made and you tip the balance in your favour before seeing the results.
If during an adventure you can normally get one or less fate points, then you should go to option C, where you do all your rolls and then, if you get a disastrous result, you are forced to spend your super-precious fate point.
I'm the Real Nowhere Man, sitting in my Nowhere Land,
making all my Nowhere plans for Nobody.

User avatar
willpell
Black Dragon
Posts: 2833
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:10 pm
Gender: male

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by willpell » Mon May 15, 2017 11:14 pm

2097 wrote:To clarify the point of D:
It's one less thing to explain. "Take any die" is one less thing to insist upon compared to "Take the second even if it was lower". Obv the first was low or the player wouldn't've paid for a reroll.
Not necessarily. If success is binary, as it generally is for hit rolls, then yes, but if there are degrees of success, as with some skill checks, then you might well reject a moderately good roll, hoping to get a vastly better result, because it's worth risking the loss of a semi-adequate degree of success. But if you are allowed to keep the first roll when the second roll is even worse, then there's more incentive to try the reroll.

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Tue May 16, 2017 6:07 am

Yeah, that's right. I wrote about that earlier:
2097 wrote:C isn't meaningfully different from D in a test situation, since you'd only want to reroll if the first roll was a failure. In a variable-outcome roll, like "how many damage do you deal", it would be.
Degrees of success is a form of variable outcome.

If that's what success rolls are, then C and D is different (and D is still easier to explain) but I still prefer A.

User avatar
Ashtagon
Hierarch
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:45 pm
Gender: female
Location: Hillvale, Isle of Dawn
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Ashtagon » Tue May 16, 2017 6:59 am

C and D are meaningfully different, due to the different decision trees that need to be made by the player, and because of that, the potential for tension and emotional investment in the decision.
Emma Rome, otherwise known as Ashtagon
Image
Overall site admin for The Piazza. My moderator colour is pink!

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Tue May 16, 2017 3:57 pm

There's no tension in throwing away a failed roll.

User avatar
Ashtagon
Hierarch
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:45 pm
Gender: female
Location: Hillvale, Isle of Dawn
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Ashtagon » Tue May 16, 2017 4:45 pm

* In A, the tension lies in deciding whether to spend a limited resource to get a good result before making any rolls.
* In B, the tension lies in deciding whether to spend a limited resource in attempting to convert roll, without knowing whether or not the roll was a success (that is, you know the number rolled, but not what it signifies).
* In C, the tension lies in deciding whether to spend a limited resource in attempting to convert the failed roll.

In all cases, the resource is limited, which is in itself a tension point. If the resource were unlimited, the decision would be easy every time.
Emma Rome, otherwise known as Ashtagon
Image
Overall site admin for The Piazza. My moderator colour is pink!

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Wed May 17, 2017 8:04 am

In C, the tension lies in deciding whether to spend a limited resource in attempting to convert the failed roll.
And here we find the similarity between C and D, they're the exact same in that regard.

User avatar
Ashtagon
Hierarch
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:45 pm
Gender: female
Location: Hillvale, Isle of Dawn
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by Ashtagon » Wed May 17, 2017 8:13 am

2097 wrote:
In C, the tension lies in deciding whether to spend a limited resource in attempting to convert the failed roll.
And here we find the similarity between C and D, they're the exact same in that regard.
There is a difference though, because with C, you run the (small) risk of turning that ordinary fail into a worse fail (if the task at hand is uses critical fumbles or degrees of success/failure). I probably wouldn't ever encourage anyone to use it though, because spending a limited resource and making the situation worse as a result is a big bowl of not-fun.
Emma Rome, otherwise known as Ashtagon
Image
Overall site admin for The Piazza. My moderator colour is pink!

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Wed May 17, 2017 8:32 am

As I've said a couple of time, if there are degrees of success, such as crits/fumbles, or a damage roll, that's when C and D becomes distinct.

Here's what I've been trying to say, in another way:

A: Pay before roll, take any. This is how normal inspiration in 5e works by the book. My favorite.

B: Pay between roll & result, take second. This is how bardic inspiration works in 5e and how action points work in 3.5e Eberron. In my home game, B becomes indistinguishable from C/D since I always always always state AC/DC and outcomes before any rolls are made. Because of that, it's my least favorite.

C: Pay after result, take second. This is how it works in Fate. In Fate, C and D are different because of the variable outcomes and because of further spending. In situations where C and D are equivalent, which they are in typical D&D tests/attacks but not in things like damage rolls, I'd rather just have D

D: Pay after result, take any. This is the common houserule in 5e to allow inspiration to be spent retroactively. I usually don't use this rule. But, in games where there's just a binary pass/fail, like most attacks and skill rolls in 5e, it's equivalent to C except a lot simpler. For variable outcome and/or further spending, they're not equivalent.

So.

A: straight-forward & good. My recommendation for this sort of system regardless of when it's a very scarce resource or if it's a common resource.

B: OK, but sometimes equivalent to C/D and in those situations it's more confusing than them so in those situations I'd rather just have C/D.

C: OK, but sometimes equivalent to D and in those situations it's more confusing than it so in those situations I'd rather just have D.

D: If you're doing post-roll spending ("Fortune in the Middle", this style is called) this is the way to go unless specific rules, like the rules in Fate, make C easier. Even for small distinctions like the 5% chance of a crit or fumble, I'd probably go with D.

User avatar
2097
Hobgoblin
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:51 am
Gender: female
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: which reroll mechanism do you prefer?

Post by 2097 » Wed May 17, 2017 8:38 am

Ashtagon wrote:I probably wouldn't ever encourage anyone to use it though, because spending a limited resource and making the situation worse as a result is a big bowl of not-fun.
That's a great point and another strike against B & C and in favor of A & D.

Post Reply

Return to “Apotheon”