Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

[Zeromaru X]

Added Karrehein to the list of dead gods (because there are not enough dead gods in Nentir Vale). She is a minor goddess mentioned in the short-story "The Decaying Mansion of Memories".

Also, added Margaine, a sort of aspect of the Raven Queen also mentioned in the story.

[Tim Baker]

Added the Dark Powers mentioned in Heroes of Shadow to the list of "Other beings". And the Everlight, from Tal'dorei.

Interesting choice to add Sarenrae from Tal'dorei. If you're going to do that, perhaps you should add the list of names for the Dawn War gods that they go by in Tal'dorei, too.

[Zeromaru X]

A few more updates to Avandra's aspects and the primal spirits list.

[Zeromaru X]

Added The Prime Architect, a primordial that spawned the modrons after his demise.

[Zeromaru X]

I've included new entries, among them the gods of 3e mentioned in Red Hand of Doom. Now that 5e's focus is the multiverse, basically they are Nentir Vale canon.

[Tim Baker]

I've included new entries, among them the gods of 3e mentioned in Red Hand of Doom. Now that 5e's focus is the multiverse, basically they are Nentir Vale canon.

I'm not following the connection. If I remember correctly, Red Hand of Doom takes place in the Elsir Vale, which wasn't explicitly placed in a setting. So fans have retconned it into a an area neighboring the Nentir Vale. But that's about the extent of my knowledge.

Did Red Hand of Doom mention gods that aren't in any other 3e pantheon/setting?

And how is that tied to 5e and its focus on the multiverse?

[Tim Baker]

Did Red Hand of Doom mention gods that aren't in any other 3e pantheon/setting?

I did a CTRL+F for "Red Hand of Doom" in your original post, and found the following:

Fharlanghn: A god of travel, and roads, revered in Elsir Vale. (Red Hand of Doom)
St. Cuthbert: A god of of wisdom, dedication, and zeal, revered in Elsir Vale. (Red Hand of Doom)
Wee Jas: A goddess of magic and death, revered in Elsir Vale. (Red Hand of Doom)

Aren't these Greyhawk gods? I know Nentir Vale borrowed gods from other pantheons (as well as borrowing lots of other elements from D&D's other settings), so it's not like the precedent hasn't been set. So is the idea that if Elsir Vale is connected to Nentir Vale and these gods are worshiped in Elsir Vale, then they must part of the same world/setting?

And even if my deduction is correct, I'm still not understanding the connection to the 5e focus on the multiverse.

[Zeromaru X]

Well, I guess you answered yourself, but Elsir Vale was retconned in 4e as part of the Nentir Vale, to the point that DM's Guild sells the Red Hand of Doom adventure under the label of "Nentir Vale". Besides that and the Scales of War adventures, Martial Power 2 explicitly mentions Elsir Vale as part of the Nentir Vale setting as well.

So, yeah, those gods are Greyhawk (or at least, 3e Greyhawk), but by retcon are also part of Nentir Vale, via that adventure.

As for the 5e focus, while these didn't existed in 4e (didn't had mechanical info, I mean) they have returned in 5e. So, for completionist sake, I put them on the list. Notice also that late 4e products did further connections between Greyhawk and the Nentir Vale (such as Evard living in the Nentir Vale, or Inverness Castle being located there).

[Tim Baker]

they have returned in 5e.

I haven't read Mortenkainen's Tome of Foes -- is this something that is defined in that book? What returned in 5e? The three 3e Greyhawk gods that are in the Elsir Vale books?

[Zeromaru X]

All the gods returned in 5e. But here I am talking about a return of their game mechanics, though, as these gods were absent in 4e and had no rules for them (such as feats or domains), but now all of them have rules and such.

However, yes MToF has a great emphasis that D&D is a multiverse now.

[Tim Baker]

All the gods returned in 5e. But here I am talking about a return of their game mechanics, though, as these gods were absent in 4e and had no rules for them (such as feats or domains), but now all of them have rules and such.

Are you referring to the various pantheons mentioned in Appendix B in the 5e Player's Handbook?

[Zeromaru X]

Yeah. Pretty much, now every God is allowed (if a DM wants). Even the Raven Queen was connected to other settings and the general "Planescape" lore in the MToF.

[Tim Baker]

I have to admit, I'm largely ignorant of how gods were treated in some of the editions that I skipped. Did prior editions state that certain settings' gods no longer exist or couldn't be used (at least not canonically)?

[Zeromaru X]

4e did killed a lot of gods, either explicitly (ie. Nerull, most of the Forgotten Realms gods) or implicitly (most died in the Dawn War), but those gods were removed from lore. They said that they did that from a design standpoint, as there were "too many gods". Yeah, that was ammunition against 4e. One of the many.

[DMSamuel]

Well, I guess you answered yourself, but Elsir Vale was retconned in 4e as part of the Nentir Vale, to the point that DM's Guild sells the Red Hand of Doom adventure under the label of "Nentir Vale". Besides that and the Scales of War adventures, Martial Power 2 explicitly mentions Elsir Vale as part of the Nentir Vale setting as well.

So, yeah, those gods are Greyhawk (or at least, 3e Greyhawk), but by retcon are also part of Nentir Vale, via that adventure.

As for the 5e focus, while these didn't existed in 4e (didn't had mechanical info, I mean) they have returned in 5e. So, for completionist sake, I put them on the list. Notice also that late 4e products did further connections between Greyhawk and the Nentir Vale (such as Evard living in the Nentir Vale, or Inverness Castle being located there).

Just now reading this thread...

I know 5e has a "Multiverse that includes all gods" thing going on, but it also has a different conception of the universe than 4e had. 5e went back to the 'great wheel' cosmology that makes it easy to just wave your hands and say: all mortal planes exist all at the same time and therefore all gods have access to all planes, so therefore all gods exist on all planes simultaneously - if the DM wants them to but the world axis set-up of the 4e cosmology doesn't make that as easy, so... all that to say, I don't consider the gods not explicitly mentioned in 4e a part of the Nentir Vale canon.

Of course, everyone can set up their game how they want, I just feel that all this retconning they are doing in 5e is cheapening 4e somehow, especially the interesting and cool parts of the Nentir Vale, as they get subsumed into the greater "all mortal planes are active" canon.

[Tim Baker]

I know 5e has a "Multiverse that includes all gods" thing going on, but it also has a different conception of the universe than 4e had. 5e went back to the 'great wheel' cosmology that makes it easy to just wave your hands and say: all mortal planes exist all at the same time and therefore all gods have access to all planes, so therefore all gods exist on all planes simultaneously - if the DM wants them to but the world axis set-up of the 4e cosmology doesn't make that as easy, so... all that to say, I don't consider the gods not explicitly mentioned in 4e a part of the Nentir Vale canon.

I'd be interested to understand this better. I don't pretend to be an expert on either cosmology, but I didn't think there was some aspect of the World Axis that made it harder to support multiple pantheons. Could you explain that?

On a related topic, in the most recent episode of the Dragon Talk podcast (the official D&D podcast from WotC), they focused on the planes. They spent some time explaining how they reconciled the Eberron planes with the Great Wheel: the Progenitors cut off Eberron and then created these smaller planes -- demi-planes, maybe? -- that only affect Eberron. Could that approach be used to explain Nerath's perception of the planes?

[Zeromaru X]

I know 5e has a "Multiverse that includes all gods" thing going on, but it also has a different conception of the universe than 4e had. 5e went back to the 'great wheel' cosmology that makes it easy to just wave your hands and say: all mortal planes exist all at the same time and therefore all gods have access to all planes, so therefore all gods exist on all planes simultaneously - if the DM wants them to but the world axis set-up of the 4e cosmology doesn't make that as easy, so... all that to say, I don't consider the gods not explicitly mentioned in 4e a part of the Nentir Vale canon.

But in 4e ALL material planes existed at the same time, as well. They were just separated by cosmic distance, but Manual of the Planes stated if you sail a Fundamental Plane (either the Astral or the Chaos) and can spare the time (shitload years) for this travel, you can get from the Nentir Vale's The World to any other material plane.

I'd be interested to understand this better. I don't pretend to be an expert on either cosmology, but I didn't think there was some aspect of the World Axis that made it harder to support multiple pantheons. Could you explain that?

On a related topic, in the most recent episode of the Dragon Talk podcast (the official D&D podcast from WotC), they focused on the planes. They spent some time explaining how they reconciled the Eberron planes with the Great Wheel: the Progenitors cut off Eberron and then created these smaller planes -- demi-planes, maybe? -- that only affect Eberron. Could that approach be used to explain Nerath's perception of the planes?

What I mentioned before. In 4e, if you travel the Astral or the Chaos, after shitload years of cosmic travel you can reach other cosmologies (or in Manual of the Planes own words, "you reach the astral dominions and elemental realms of other worlds"). Better shortcut is using portals. So, Nerath's cosmology is just another cosmology like the alternative cosmologies you can see in the 3e Manual of the Planes, separated from the Great Whell by the gulfs of time and space...

The different versions of the gods... well, that is not explained in universe. Though, the concept of aspects of deities still is used in 4e.

[DMSamuel]

I know 5e has a "Multiverse that includes all gods" thing going on, but it also has a different conception of the universe than 4e had. 5e went back to the 'great wheel' cosmology that makes it easy to just wave your hands and say: all mortal planes exist all at the same time and therefore all gods have access to all planes, so therefore all gods exist on all planes simultaneously - if the DM wants them to but the world axis set-up of the 4e cosmology doesn't make that as easy, so... all that to say, I don't consider the gods not explicitly mentioned in 4e a part of the Nentir Vale canon.

But in 4e ALL material planes existed at the same time, as well. They were just separated by cosmic distance, but Manual of the Planes stated if you sail a Fundamental Plane (either the Astral or the Chaos) and can spare the time (shitload years) for this travel, you can get from the Nentir Vale's The World to any other material plane.

Right - and I think this explains how certain arcane spells can be found in the Nentir Vale even if a certain arcane mage never visited there, at least in person. What I mean is... Bigby, Mordenkainen, and Leomund have spells and/or rituals named after them in the 4e PHB, so therefore their names are known in the Nentir Vale - but that doesn't mean they were ever actually there, but 'someone' was able to get the arcane knowledge into the Vale and it was able to retain its original name.

My apologies - I think I wasn't explaining myself very well with my previous post... I just mean that they sort of separated 4e from other editions by using the world axis rather than the great wheel. It was one of the complaints that a few people kept harping on as a main reason they didn't like 4e... and thus a sore spot for me - I heard it waaaay too often.

[Zeromaru X]

But Mordenkainen was, for instance. Have you read "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium"? Dunno why, but Mordenkainen went to Nentir Vale (he knows of Mayor Goldspinner from Hammerfast) and studied the old lore of Nerath, Arkhosia and Bael Turath. Also, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos mentions that he also studied how magic work in the Elemental Chaos... so.

And then you have stuff like Inverness Castle, that seems to exist in both the Nentir Vale and Oerth at the same time (as per the adventure). Or Evard, who lived and "died" in Duponde.

I know much of this is from Essentials or post-Essentials, though. So, I see this as their attempt to reconcile 4e with the rest of the "classic" D&D lore, and not something that was originally intended for Nentir Vale's lore.

[DMSamuel]

But Mordenkainen was, for instance. Have you read "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium"? Dunno why, but Mordenkainen went to Nentir Vale (he knows of Mayor Goldspinner from Hammerfast) and studied the old lore of Nerath, Arkhosia and Bael Turath. Also, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos mentions that he also studied how magic work in the Elemental Chaos... so.

Honestly, by the time I picked up Mordie's Mag Emporium my campaign had already ended and the group wanted to play some sci-fi, so I haven't looked at that book in years, and I don't remember the reasons why Mordenkainen was in the Vale. It's in the encyclopedia to-read queue, of course, but it was one of the last 4e releases, so I won't be getting to it for a long while. I'm still on June 2008!

To your knowledge did Bigby or Leomund ever make an official appearance in the Nentir?

And then you have stuff like Inverness Castle, that seems to exist in both the Nentir Vale and Oerth at the same time (as per the adventure). Or Evard, who lived and "died" in Duponde.

I do know about Evard and Castle Inverness... I agree that they feel like something intended to bring the 4e world in line with classic edition world canon.

Also - don't forget that Tharizdun is imprisoned with the Void Harrow, and that means that the Elemental Eye, and all that entails (cults, evil rituals, and freeing the chained god himself) is part of the Nentir Vale, but Tharizdun is from Greyhawk and the D&D encounters season featuring the Elemental Eye is NOT set in the Vale (If I recall correctly, they put it in the Forgoten Realms).

Also - they have the Beyond the Crystal Cave location in the Feywild, and that was originally in Greyhawk as well.

I guess there are a lot of cross-over things I wasn't thinking about until sitting down and looking at a stack of books.

And if I think about the fact that Sigil is part of 4e canon - that is one of the ways to get from the Nentir Vale to any other plane or mortal realm.

I know much of this is from Essentials or post-Essentials, though. So, I see this as their attempt to reconcile 4e with the rest of the "classic" D&D lore, and not something that was originally intended for Nentir Vale's lore.

I think they didn't plan for the Nentir Vale to become a setting in the proper sense of the word - I think they originally conceived it to be a small area they could make a single adventure about and use as a template to help DMs create their own small setting, or let DMs drop the Vale into their own worlds or one of the other existing D&D worlds. But I think it was natural for fans to use the Nentir Vale as its own setting, and so there was a mismatch in intention in the earlier products, and then, as you say, Essentials shook things up again, so there was another mismatch in intentions when they decided to retcon all of these elements from other settings into the lore of the Vale.

I do think that some of this stems from the Nentir Vale being a popular setting, even if 4e wasn't as well received as WotC would have hoped, and so they ended up developing it more than originally planned.

[Zeromaru X]

To your knowledge did Bigby or Leomund ever make an official appearance in the Nentir?

Nope. Those are only mentioned (along with the rest of the Eight). The only ones that we know have been in the Vale or the general Nerath world at some point are Mordenkainen, Iggwilv (both in her adult age and when she was young Tasha), Evard and Emirikol.

Also - don't forget that Tharizdun is imprisoned with the Void Harrow, and that means that the Elemental Eye, and all that entails (cults, evil rituals, and freeing the chained god himself) is part of the Nentir Vale, but Tharizdun is from Greyhawk and the D&D encounters season featuring the Elemental Eye is NOT set in the Vale (If I recall correctly, they put it in the Forgoten Realms).

There are two Tharizduns mentioned in NV canon, though. The one from the Dawn War pantheon and the one from the world of the Sharn (that I call alternate Tharizdun to avoid confusion).

[DMSamuel]

There are two Tharizduns mentioned in NV canon, though. The one from the Dawn War pantheon and the one from the world of the Sharn (that I call alternate Tharizdun to avoid confusion).

If I recall correctly the alternate Tharizdun exploded or dissipated or expanded beyond comprehension in a huge apotheosis - leaving only 1 Tharizdun left in the Nentir Vale universe - the chained one Tharizdun.

That Sharn lore always struck me as an alternate parallel universe theorem - that is, IF there was a parallel universe where the primordials won the Dawn War, the Sharn Tharizdun would be the active Tharizdun, but since the Primordials lost the Dawn War, the Tharizdun that is active is the chained god imprisoned. I suppose an alternate in-universe explanation IS appropriate for a Far Realm aberration. If we take it as canon, though, it means that Tharizdun could be the father of the Far Realm. Interesting thought.

[Zeromaru X]

Yeah, Alt. Tharizdun ascended to something beyond comprehension and we do not know what happened to him.

Alt. Tharizdun cannot be the father of the Far Realm, as the Far Realm existed since before the current Universe. The alternate universes where created when main Tharizdun grabbed the Shard of Evil, and if we go by the novels, the Shard was in the Far Realm when he grabbed it. There are many others parallel universes created at that moment, and we do not know what happened to them.

If we go by the novels and "Threats to the Nentir Vale", the Sharn-verse is currently the place where main Tharizdun is chained.

[BotWizo]

Depending on the lore you follow the Elder elemental Eye is seperate from Tharizdun.
Tharizdun is someone who like Iuz, zuggmotoy, Lolth tried to glom on and pretend to be the elemental god, but the elder elemental eye is the real god of elemental evil.

I may have read into one of the posts above, sorry if I did, then just ignore me and move on.

[DMSamuel]

Depending on the lore you follow the Elder elemental Eye is seperate from Tharizdun.
Tharizdun is someone who like Iuz, zuggmotoy, Lolth tried to glom on and pretend to be the elemental god, but the elder elemental eye is the real god of elemental evil.

I may have read into one of the posts above, sorry if I did, then just ignore me and move on.

Hmmm - interesting. I wonder if that is a Greyhawk-only thing... or rather, that they consciously decided to change the lore for 4e. In the 4e Novel series (The Abyssal Plague Trilogy) Tharizdun was the chained god and also the elder elemental eye. Or perhaps the the novel authors just wrote the easiest interpretation. Or perhaps I am just not remembering it correctly. I'll have to re-read those books soon.