Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other regions

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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Mon May 02, 2016 9:51 pm

Added the Sharnlands to the Underdark.

Added the Other mortal worlds section to the Anomalous Planes.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:52 am

Minor updates, but in short the article "Star Crossed: Star Pact Hexblades" (Dragon 393) states two important facts of the Nentir Vale world:

1. The world (and possibly the other celestial bodies in the void between planes) is encased in a "black shell" that protects it from the Fundamental Planes (the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos). The stars are though to be holes (or big gemstones) in the surface of that shell (but we know many of those stars are in fact aberrant creatures from the Far Realm or the beings known as the Elder Evils). That means the "Nerath Crystal Sphere", or Nerathspace as Big Mac calls it, is a canon fact.

2. The stars are the same in the mortal world and its echoes. That means the same stars exists in all three planes, though in the Shadowfell the only real stars are those that have died (or being eaten) in the mortal world.

Also, the Worlds and Monsters preview book states that there is only one sun, and the "Nerath planet" only has one moon. According to the Dungeon Master's Kit the sun was crafted by Moradin in the Dawnforge Mountain (the dwarves of Hammerfast believe that mountain is one of the mountains of the Dawnforge Mountain Range, in the Nentir Vale), while the moon seems to have been created by Sehanine according to Heroes of the Feywild.

And it seems that all the places depicted in the Feywild and Shadowfell official maps exists in those planes equivalent region to the Nentir Vale.
Last edited by Zeromaru X on Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Tim Baker » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:19 am

That's awesome stuff!
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:50 am

Updated the Nentir Vale with more detailed descriptions as well as new places that weren't described before (that was the entirety of the geography section of my project to do a neutral edition guide of the Nentir Vale), because my completionist complex. Since that surpassed the character limit of the first post, many lands of the world beyond had to be relocated in the second post.

Also, added a new dungeon to the Unknown places of the world (The Imposible Staircase), a new city to the Feywild (Amethystra), and Plaguedeep to the demiplanes.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby JimmytheQuick » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:32 pm

The design team specifically stated that the setting world for 4th edition would only have one moon and one world to give a point of natural understanding for players. They then designed the fantasy world on top of that.

It's in the preview book which I don't have in front of me but I can find the quote later if anyone wants me to.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:06 pm

I'll gladly appreciate that, as it will serve as a reference of sorts for Spelljammer campaigns in the Nerath world.

EDIT: Updated with some new locales from the preview books.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Big Mac » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:11 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:Minor updates, but in short the article "Star Crossed: Star Pact Hexblades" (Dragon 393) states two important facts of the Nentir Vale world:

1. The world (and possibly the other celestial bodies in the void between planes) is encased in a "black shell" that protects it from the Fundamental Planes (the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos). The stars are though to be holes (or big gemstones) in the surface of that shell (but we know many of those stars are in fact aberrant creatures from the Far Realm or the beings known as the Elder Evils). That means the "Nerath Crystal Sphere", or Nerathspace as Big Mac calls it, is a canon fact.


I've only just seen this post, but Woo-hoo! :cool:

One thing interesting here, is that we actually have the colour of the crystal shell. Even some of the original Spelljammer products failed to give the colour of individual crystal spheres in them.

I think there is probably a slight rebooting of the Spelljammer universe here, as the phlogiston is not mentioned, but the suggestions I have previously seen of spelljamming ships travelling through the Astra Sea instead of wildspace are not correct. Travel within the black "Nerathspace" crystal sphere should work exactly the same as it did during 2nd Edition (and 3rd Edition).

Zeromaru X wrote:2. The stars are the same in the mortal world and its echoes. That means the same stars exists in all three planes, though in the Shadowfell the only real stars are those that have died (or being eaten) in the mortal world.

Also, the Worlds and Monsters preview book states that there is only one sun, and the "Nerath planet" only has one moon. According to the Dungeon Master's Kit the sun was crafted by Moradin in the Dawnforge Mountain (the dwarves of Hammerfast believe that mountain is one of the mountains of the Dawnforge Mountain Range, in the Nentir Vale), while the moon seems to have been created by Sehanine according to Heroes of the Feywild.


I've always kind of assumed that campaign settings have one sun, one moon and one spherical world...unless otherwise stated. Other things (like the Hollow World or a flatworld) can be fun concepts. They have different laws of nature that can create unusual roleplaying situations. But designers need to burn up space explaining those details to GMs and players. So if you want to have a simple campaign setting, it makes sense to go with what everyone knows and not have to deal with questions like how the horizon works, how the seasons work, how the tides work or how lycanthropy works.

There should really be more to "Nerathspace" than one world, one moon and one sun, but it's all you need to run the setting on the world itself. Eberron is similar. It does have more than one moon - it has twelve - but Keith Baker only built the sun, the moons and the world, because that was all that the players needed to know. Ghostwalk and Mahasarpa don't even bother to address the issue.

Zeromaru X wrote:And it seems that all the places depicted in the Feywild and Shadowfell official maps exists in those planes equivalent region to the Nentir Vale.


Maps of the areas equivalent to Nentir Vale and other parts of Nerath would be very interesting. :)
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Big Mac » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:12 pm

JimmytheQuick wrote:The design team specifically stated that the setting world for 4th edition would only have one moon and one world to give a point of natural understanding for players. They then designed the fantasy world on top of that.

It's in the preview book which I don't have in front of me but I can find the quote later if anyone wants me to.


If you can find that, at some point, Jimmy, it would be really helpful.

I have been considering buying Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters (if that is the book you are talking about) and if that sort of detail is in there, the book might be of some use to me.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:59 pm

Yeah, that book is really useful to understand the "Nerathspace" world.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Tim Baker » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:55 am

Big Mac wrote:
JimmytheQuick wrote:The design team specifically stated that the setting world for 4th edition would only have one moon and one world to give a point of natural understanding for players. They then designed the fantasy world on top of that.

It's in the preview book which I don't have in front of me but I can find the quote later if anyone wants me to.


If you can find that, at some point, Jimmy, it would be really helpful.

I have been considering buying Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters (if that is the book you are talking about) and if that sort of detail is in there, the book might be of some use to me.

It's on page 13 of that book.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:51 pm

Big Mac wrote:I think there is probably a slight rebooting of the Spelljammer universe here, as the phlogiston is not mentioned, but the suggestions I have previously seen of spelljamming ships travelling through the Astra Sea instead of wildspace are not correct. Travel within the black "Nerathspace" crystal sphere should work exactly the same as it did during 2nd Edition (and 3rd Edition).


Now that I recall about it, although the phlogiston its not mentioned in the "core world" 4e books, it's mentioned in the 4e Forgotten Realms campaign setting as something that exists "outside/beyond" (in a cosmological sense) the Astral Sea.

Seeing the philosophy of "take whatever you want from other settings" the Points of Light setting has, I guess if you want to create an spelljammer campaign in Nerath, there is no problem in raiding that to make the phlogiston part of the setting.

BTW, the topic has been updated with some regions from the novels.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:32 am

Updated to mach the info of the Gazetteer (I had to move a lot of info to other post because the Nentir Vale has so much info that I couldn't have edited the post if I didn't do that).
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Matrix Sorcica » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:59 pm

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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Big Mac » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:10 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I think there is probably a slight rebooting of the Spelljammer universe here, as the phlogiston is not mentioned, but the suggestions I have previously seen of spelljamming ships travelling through the Astra Sea instead of wildspace are not correct. Travel within the black "Nerathspace" crystal sphere should work exactly the same as it did during 2nd Edition (and 3rd Edition).


Now that I recall about it, although the phlogiston its not mentioned in the "core world" 4e books, it's mentioned in the 4e Forgotten Realms campaign setting as something that exists "outside/beyond" (in a cosmological sense) the Astral Sea.


That's very interesting, as I had someone tell me that crystal spheres didn't exist in 4th Edition. I've created a [Realmspace] What does FRCG say about the Phlogiston?, as it's not about Nentir Vale.

Zeromaru X wrote:Seeing the philosophy of "take whatever you want from other settings" the Points of Light setting has, I guess if you want to create an spelljammer campaign in Nerath, there is no problem in raiding that to make the phlogiston part of the setting.


One thing to consider is that Nentir Vale doesn't actually "need" to have the same cosmology as Forgotten Realms. Back in the 3rd Edition Era the Eberron cosmology was somewhat different from Forgotten Realms. The three worlds could possibly exist on Alternate Material Planes, with Eberron and Nentir Vale not having a connection to the Phlogiston.

Obviously that isn't how I would prefer to do things, but if the core D&D books don't give Nentir Vale/Nerath a crystal sphere, but they do give Forgotten Realms one (one that it already had) you have a level of "beyond" where you no longer have any more information.

Having said that, you did mention those stars with a Far Realm connection and I do think that Spelljammer-style stars (which are distant objects at a fixed distance - either on or inside a crystal sphere) make more sense as D&D stars than having very distant Far Realm connected suns. :)
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Big Mac » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:14 am

Matrix Sorcica wrote:You are a hero.


He certainly is. :)

Welcome to The Piazza Matrix. It's nice to see another Nentir Vale fan here. I hope you will stick around and join in the conversation. You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, and tell people a bit about yourself and the stuff you like (including Nentir Vale). :)

Are you playing in a Nentir Vale game at the moment?
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:04 pm

Big Mac wrote:One thing to consider is that Nentir Vale doesn't actually "need" to have the same cosmology as Forgotten Realms. Back in the 3rd Edition Era the Eberron cosmology was somewhat different from Forgotten Realms. The three worlds could possibly exist on Alternate Material Planes, with Eberron and Nentir Vale not having a connection to the Phlogiston.


The 4e philosophy was that "every setting had the same cosmology", for design purposes. That's why they adapted/shoehorned the World Axis to the Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Dark Sun settings. The Manual of the Planes even says that if you travel across the Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos beyond the known astral domains/elemental realms of your mortal world, you eventually would reach the astral domains/elemental realms of another mortal world. It would take long time to that kind of travel, but is possible.

So, the phlogiston existing "outside the Astral Sea" applies to all the settings that were released in 4e.

Big Mac wrote:Obviously that isn't how I would prefer to do things, but if the core D&D books don't give Nentir Vale/Nerath a crystal sphere, but they do give Forgotten Realms one (one that it already had) you have a level of "beyond" where you no longer have any more information.


Core books do not mention a crystal sphere indeed. However, an article about star pact warlocks hints that "Nerathspace" may exists within a sphere (however, the sphere protects the world from the Astral Sea, not the phlogiston). That is in Dungeon 393, in an article about star pact hexblades. The exact quote is:

Star Crossed: Star Pact Hexblades wrote:Who can say what the stars are? Some claim the stars are holes in a black shell that surrounds the world and protects it from being drowned by the Astral Sea. Others insist the lights represent the eyes of the gods and other entities keeping watch upon their creation. More gullible folk dream of the stars as gemstones of impossible size and brightness or as the souls of the dead cursed to behold the living as the shadow of night claims the land.


Again, because the "points of light" philosophy the author didn't gave a definite answer, but making that hint in the canon makes the possibility of a canon "Nerathspace" high indeed.

Big Mac wrote:Having said that, you did mention those stars with a Far Realm connection and I do think that Spelljammer-style stars (which are distant objects at a fixed distance - either on or inside a crystal sphere) make more sense as D&D stars than having very distant Far Realm connected suns. :)


Not all stars are connected to Far Realm-stuff. And those beings invaded the stars from beyond. The Plane Above says that they "pry holes" in reality to spy on the world (in p.6). You can take that as that they shattered the crystal spheres to invade the stars and made their lairs/homes/whatever. Only Ulban and Allabar are fully celestial-bodies inside the sphere, while Nihal is movable, but not free to wander.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Matrix Sorcica » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:28 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Matrix Sorcica wrote:You are a hero.


Welcome to The Piazza Matrix. It's nice to see another Nentir Vale fan here. I hope you will stick around and join in the conversation. You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, and tell people a bit about yourself and the stuff you like (including Nentir Vale). :)

Are you playing in a Nentir Vale game at the moment?

Thanks.
I'm sort of playing in a Nentir Vale campaign, as in the Vale and a lot of the Nerath background etc. is in my campaign world, but it's a mish mash of Faerun's Sword Coast lore and Golarion's Varisia lore plus other tidbits. At the moment the players are adventurering in Neverwinter, so not so related to NV. But the great Markustay on Candlekeep.com is making a map with the NV just around the corner fram Neverwinter, so that's about to change.

I hope to take greater part of the conversation here.
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Big Mac » Tue May 02, 2017 7:59 am

Matrix Sorcica wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Matrix Sorcica wrote:You are a hero.


Welcome to The Piazza Matrix. It's nice to see another Nentir Vale fan here. I hope you will stick around and join in the conversation. You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, and tell people a bit about yourself and the stuff you like (including Nentir Vale). :)

Are you playing in a Nentir Vale game at the moment?

Thanks.
I'm sort of playing in a Nentir Vale campaign, as in the Vale and a lot of the Nerath background etc. is in my campaign world, but it's a mish mash of Faerun's Sword Coast lore and Golarion's Varisia lore plus other tidbits. At the moment the players are adventurering in Neverwinter, so not so related to NV. But the great Markustay on Candlekeep.com is making a map with the NV just around the corner fram Neverwinter, so that's about to change.


Markustay does great maps. I still remember someone stealing his Kara-Tur/Mahsuharpa map and putting it on Forgotten Realms Wiki (and claiming that it was a canon map). That was an awesome mashup. I'll be interested to see how he can combine Faerûn and Nentir Vale. (I wonder where a topic about that should go. Probably Forgotten Realms, if that is the main setting. :? )

Matrix Sorcica wrote:I hope to take greater part of the conversation here.


It would be great to see you in other topics. :D
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Big Mac » Tue May 02, 2017 8:07 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Big Mac wrote:One thing to consider is that Nentir Vale doesn't actually "need" to have the same cosmology as Forgotten Realms. Back in the 3rd Edition Era the Eberron cosmology was somewhat different from Forgotten Realms. The three worlds could possibly exist on Alternate Material Planes, with Eberron and Nentir Vale not having a connection to the Phlogiston.


The 4e philosophy was that "every setting had the same cosmology", for design purposes. That's why they adapted/shoehorned the World Axis to the Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Dark Sun settings. The Manual of the Planes even says that if you travel across the Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos beyond the known astral domains/elemental realms of your mortal world, you eventually would reach the astral domains/elemental realms of another mortal world. It would take long time to that kind of travel, but is possible.

So, the phlogiston existing "outside the Astral Sea" applies to all the settings that were released in 4e.


Right. So I guess that someone doing a 3e (or earlier) version of Nentir Vale, could just revert to the default cosmology of that edition and make a few changes for local flavour. That's a great solution. Thanks.

Zeromaru X wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Obviously that isn't how I would prefer to do things, but if the core D&D books don't give Nentir Vale/Nerath a crystal sphere, but they do give Forgotten Realms one (one that it already had) you have a level of "beyond" where you no longer have any more information.


Core books do not mention a crystal sphere indeed. However, an article about star pact warlocks hints that "Nerathspace" may exists within a sphere (however, the sphere protects the world from the Astral Sea, not the phlogiston). That is in Dungeon 393, in an article about star pact hexblades. The exact quote is:

Star Crossed: Star Pact Hexblades wrote:Who can say what the stars are? Some claim the stars are holes in a black shell that surrounds the world and protects it from being drowned by the Astral Sea. Others insist the lights represent the eyes of the gods and other entities keeping watch upon their creation. More gullible folk dream of the stars as gemstones of impossible size and brightness or as the souls of the dead cursed to behold the living as the shadow of night claims the land.


Again, because the "points of light" philosophy the author didn't gave a definite answer, but making that hint in the canon makes the possibility of a canon "Nerathspace" high indeed.


That's outstanding. That's definitely a Spelljammer reference. The gemstone thing is in SJ canon and we know that Rich Baker is a SJ designer, so that's not a coincidence (although it might have originally been intended to be a reboot of SJ into the Astral Sea). :cool:

I would say that this is written from the point of view of a "groundling". And I have long thought that it makes sense for crystal spheres to be viewed as barriers to other planes, becuase the Phlogiston blocks travel between the Material Plane and any other plane.

This could turn the Astral Sea into the part of the Astral Plane that is unable to connect to the Material Plane. It's similar to some stuff I've seen hinted at in Dragonlance books. :)

Zeromaru X wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Having said that, you did mention those stars with a Far Realm connection and I do think that Spelljammer-style stars (which are distant objects at a fixed distance - either on or inside a crystal sphere) make more sense as D&D stars than having very distant Far Realm connected suns. :)


Not all stars are connected to Far Realm-stuff. And those beings invaded the stars from beyond. The Plane Above says that they "pry holes" in reality to spy on the world (in p.6). You can take that as that they shattered the crystal spheres to invade the stars and made their lairs/homes/whatever. Only Ulban and Allabar are fully celestial-bodies inside the sphere, while Nihal is movable, but not free to wander.


Ah right. So they have broken into the sphere and have chosen to occupy a star because it is a physical object that they can bend to their own will. :)
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Matrix Sorcica » Wed May 03, 2017 9:39 am

Big Mac wrote:Markustay does great maps. I still remember someone stealing his Kara-Tur/Mahsuharpa map and putting it on Forgotten Realms Wiki (and claiming that it was a canon map). That was an awesome mashup. I'll be interested to see how he can combine Faerûn and Nentir Vale. (I wonder where a topic about that should go. Probably Forgotten Realms, if that is the main setting. :? )

Behold! http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Nen ... -678343093

Main discussion is here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21488
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Angel Tarragon » Wed May 03, 2017 5:58 pm

That is a thing of beauty! :o :cool:

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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:34 am

Matrix Sorcica wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Markustay does great maps. I still remember someone stealing his Kara-Tur/Mahsuharpa map and putting it on Forgotten Realms Wiki (and claiming that it was a canon map). That was an awesome mashup. I'll be interested to see how he can combine Faerûn and Nentir Vale. (I wonder where a topic about that should go. Probably Forgotten Realms, if that is the main setting. :? )

Behold! http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Nen ... -678343093

Main discussion is here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21488


Thanks for those links. That's some awesome work! :cool:
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:55 am

I've made a few updates to the first posts.

EDIT: Post number 700! Yey! :mrgreen:
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Tim Baker » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:55 am

Zeromaru X wrote:Post number 700! Yey! :mrgreen:

Nice work!
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Re: Nentir Vale and beyond: locales, cities and other region

Postby Zeromaru X » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:05 am

Haven't noticed this before, but according to the "Heroes of..." books, Nentir Vale is part of the region known as the Borderlands (the farthest frontier of Nerath), that is full of Turathi and Arkhosian ruins. More rare, a few towns and fortresses survived the fall of those empires, and still exists as dragonborn and tieflings only settlements. They were part of Nerath, but the Nerathi law of racial segregation did not applied there. The borderlands is also a land were monstruos humanoids coexists with the so-called "common races" (humans, elves, dwarves and halflings). I guess, Hammerfast (a city of dwarves and orcs) is one of such examples.

I guess it makes sense, though. Restwell Keep is also known as the Keep on the Borderlands... the Barrier Peaks are also located in the Borderlands. So, is this another Mystara reference?
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Zeromaru X
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