Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

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Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Havard » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:26 pm

Where have you placed the Nentir Vale? Can it be successfully integrated into any of the old D&D worlds? How would you modify it to place it in worlds like say Dark Sun?

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Angel Tarragon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:44 pm

On Dark Sun it might work best as an annexation to The Last Sea region.

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Dragonhelm » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:37 pm

It took me a while to figure out what Nentir Vale was, but I think I get it now. It's not a full-blown setting, like Greyhawk or the Realms. It's a mini-setting. It stands alone for new players who want a small area to romp around in, yet there's a suggested world beyond. So maybe that world is Athas, Oerth, Toril, or Krynn. They will be expanding on this area sometime soon. Forget which product, though.

I've seen threads about this very topic on other forums. If I can find them, I'll post some links.

In my mind, I think it could be placed somewhere in western Oerik in GH. IIRC, that area isn't very detailed anyway.
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Havard » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:55 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:It took me a while to figure out what Nentir Vale was, but I think I get it now. It's not a full-blown setting, like Greyhawk or the Realms. It's a mini-setting. It stands alone for new players who want a small area to romp around in, yet there's a suggested world beyond. So maybe that world is Athas, Oerth, Toril, or Krynn. They will be expanding on this area sometime soon. Forget which product, though.

I've seen threads about this very topic on other forums. If I can find them, I'll post some links.

In my mind, I think it could be placed somewhere in western Oerik in GH. IIRC, that area isn't very detailed anyway.
Yep.

What I am looking for are specific suggestions for how to incorporate the Nentir Vale in each of the existing settings. IMO it could be used anywhere. The Nentir Vale is a great starting point for any 4E campaign, but after a while you might want to travel beyond that area. The existing settings from the TSR era and after are ideal for this.

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by BotWizo » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:56 pm

I would place it in north-northeast central brun where there is not much canon material for Mystara.

You could probably place it in Davania possibly central (Brasol), and possibly Skothar inside the empire of the great khan.
These last two options do not seem to fit as well.

For greyhawk maybe just off the north-eastern map from the 1st ed box set? Then characters could go over the western mountains in the nentir vale and be in the eastern portion of the greyhawk setting.

hope that gives you some ideas.
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by dfryer36 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:59 am

I can see two places for it in The Scarred Lands. One would be on the western slope of the Kelder Mountains just north of the Ganjus Forest. The other is in eastern Darakeene, either near the Titanhome Mountains or near the Spires of Gaurak.
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Gawain_VIII » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:19 am

We now have several of these self-contained "intro" valleys. I'd suggest that each one belongs to a different world.

Valley of Obelisks (Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde)--Abeir/Toril: the southern edge of the Nether Mts. in the Silver Marches. The Marrilach River runs southwest into the Talons, then south as a tributary of the River Delimbiyr. Turnstone Pass provides a road out of the valley to Sundabar, while the Marrilach River still provides passage south.

Nentir Vale--Oerth/Flanaess: In the Griff Mts. north of the Duchy of Tenh. The Nentir River would equate to the Zenkeer River, with the lake at it's headwaters being Lake Nen.

Thunder Rift--Mystara/Brun: Altan Tepes Mts. on the border between Karameikos, Thyatis, Darokin, and Ylaruam.

However, because of the design philosophy of the starter valley--any of these mini-settings can be logically placed in any significant mountain range with a river running to/from/through it.

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:47 am

On Oerth I would put Nentir Vale in northern Tenh, in the southern Theocracy of the Pale, in northern Perrenland, in northern Ekbir, in the North Kingdom next to the Bone March, or in the Bone March.

Nentir Vale in the DMG is a lowland area between the Cairngorn peaks and the Dawnforge Mountains. To the north is the Winterbole Forest and to the south is the Harken Forest. The whole area is about a hundred miles wide from east to west, and about fifty miles from north to south (approximately three hexes by a little more than one hex, on most maps of the Flanaess). It's a mostly unsettled border region. The largest local town is the dwarven town of Hammerfast, and any larger cities are separated from Nentir Vale by the Harken Forest.

You could, in theory, put the whole thing inside a mountain range like Gawain suggested (back in April; I'm only getting around to thinking about this now), but as it appears in the DMG it's actually between two mountain ranges, not inside one. I think Gawain's suggested location is pretty good; you could sacrifice three hexes inside the Griff Mountains for a valley without breaking much in Oerth, but I think there are other locations that fit even closer and allow for somewhat more interaction with the rest of the setting.

In the DMG Nentir Vale map, the Vale lies to the east of a place called the "Stonemarch, home to dangerous humanoids and giants." In Greyhawk, the obvious equivalent is the Bone March, which (like the Stonemarch) overrun by orcs, ogres, and such. An advantage of putting Nentir Vale near the Bone March is that this land, recently overrun by evil humanoids, neatly explains why Nentir Vale has so many once-civilized ruins in it. Gardmore Abbey, Kalton Manor, the Keep on the Shadowfell, Raven Roost, Fastormel, and the Temple of Yellow Skulls might have all been intact until the Bone March was taken over by evil humanoids in 561 CY, who later left when there was nothing left to destroy, leaving the people of Nentir Vale the last thirty years (assuming a campaign in 591 CY) to semi-rebuild. Instead of being between the Cairngorn Peaks and the Dawnforge Mountains, then, it could be between the Flinty Hills and Blemu Hills north of Knurl (in which case the Nentir River is the Harp River), or between the Blemu Hills and Blemu Uplands (the hills that are the source of the Teesar Torrent; the Nentir River would be the Teesar Torrent in this case, which would require some map adjustments) between the Bone March and North Kingdom.

If it's in the southern Pale, the Dawnforge Mountains are the Rakers and the Harken Forest is the Gamboge Forest. The Gamboge Forest is also the equivalent of the Stonemarch, since it has orcs and ogres in it anyway. The Nentir River can just be assumed to be too small to appear on the map, and you could just continue to call it the Nentir River. You'd probably have to ignore the bit about "Tigerclan nomads." There isn't any particular reason for a lot of ruins in the southern Pale other than the gradual decline of the Great Kingdom in the last few centuries, and the general hazards of living in a D&D world.

If it's in northern Tenh, the Cairngorn Peaks are the Bluff Hills (which fit the description very closely) and the Dawnforge Mountains are the Griff Mountains (which also fit pretty well). The Nentir River is the Zumker River, and you'd have to add a forest to cut it off from the major city Nevond Nevend (which isn't a big problem, I don't think). The recent invasion by the Hold of Stonefist could be the reason there are so many ruins, but it might work better if you set it several decades later if you don't want it all to be very recently destroyed. The Tigerclan nomads would be Rovers of the Barrens.

If it's in Perrenland, you could put it west of the Sepia Uplands (which would be the equivalent of the Dawnforge Mountains, where Hammerfast would go). The advantage here is the "Tigerclan nomads" who come to Nenlast to trade could be Wolf Nomads. You could put Nentir Vale further to the west and have the Tigerclan nomads be Tiger Nomads, but then you're in Baklunish territory and the generally European feel of Nentir Vale should probably be swapped for more of an Asian feel instead. Either way, the ruins could all be the result of the Relentless Horde invading the area in the 300s CY, which cut off the Archbarony of Blackmoor to the north from the Quaglands, which were at the time a province of the Great Kingdom. The northern, isolated frontier feel is right for Nentir Vale.

If you continue through the Dawnforge Mountains along the Trade Road, in the 4e setting you eventually end up in the ruins of Vor Rukoth, which was formerly a city of Bael Turath until it was overrun by devils. Vor Rukoth could fit pretty well in the Bone March, in the Blemu Uplands at the edge of the Solnor Ocean. You could also probably fit it in the Yatil Mountains at the edge of Lake Quag if you end up putting Nentir Vale south of the lands of the Tiger Nomads. In the other positions, it doesn't really fit as well, and you'd probably have to ignore that connection unless you instead ignore the fact that Vor Rukoth is supposed to be at the edge of a sea. Or you could put Vor Rukoth in the Underdark and have the Midnight Sea be a subterranean sea, which would be fine as far as I can tell. Bael Turath could be an ancient devil-worshiping Flan kingdom pretty much anywhere in the Flanaess.

The Kingdom of Nerath is the Great Kingdom of Aerdy in nearly all of these locations, unless you put south of the lands of the Tiger Nomads, in which case it's the Caliphate of Ekbir (or, I guess, the Sultanate of Zeif or even the Baklunish Imperium).

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by cromsriddle » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:38 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:On Oerth I would put Nentir Vale in northern Tenh, in the southern Theocracy of the Pale, in northern Perrenland, in northern Ekbir, in the North Kingdom next to the Bone March, or in the Bone March.

Nentir Vale in the DMG is a lowland area between the Cairngorn peaks and the Dawnforge Mountains. To the north is the Winterbole Forest and to the south is the Harken Forest. The whole area is about a hundred miles wide from east to west, and about fifty miles from north to south (approximately three hexes by a little more than one hex, on most maps of the Flanaess). It's a mostly unsettled border region. The largest local town is the dwarven town of Hammerfast, and any larger cities are separated from Nentir Vale by the Harken Forest.

You could, in theory, put the whole thing inside a mountain range like Gawain suggested (back in April; I'm only getting around to thinking about this now), but as it appears in the DMG it's actually between two mountain ranges, not inside one. I think Gawain's suggested location is pretty good; you could sacrifice three hexes inside the Griff Mountains for a valley without breaking much in Oerth, but I think there are other locations that fit even closer and allow for somewhat more interaction with the rest of the setting.

In the DMG Nentir Vale map, the Vale lies to the east of a place called the "Stonemarch, home to dangerous humanoids and giants." In Greyhawk, the obvious equivalent is the Bone March, which (like the Stonemarch) overrun by orcs, ogres, and such. An advantage of putting Nentir Vale near the Bone March is that this land, recently overrun by evil humanoids, neatly explains why Nentir Vale has so many once-civilized ruins in it. Gardmore Abbey, Kalton Manor, the Keep on the Shadowfell, Raven Roost, Fastormel, and the Temple of Yellow Skulls might have all been intact until the Bone March was taken over by evil humanoids in 561 CY, who later left when there was nothing left to destroy, leaving the people of Nentir Vale the last thirty years (assuming a campaign in 591 CY) to semi-rebuild. Instead of being between the Cairngorn Peaks and the Dawnforge Mountains, then, it could be between the Flinty Hills and Blemu Hills north of Knurl (in which case the Nentir River is the Harp River), or between the Blemu Hills and Blemu Uplands (the hills that are the source of the Teesar Torrent; the Nentir River would be the Teesar Torrent in this case, which would require some map adjustments) between the Bone March and North Kingdom.

If it's in the southern Pale, the Dawnforge Mountains are the Rakers and the Harken Forest is the Gamboge Forest. The Gamboge Forest is also the equivalent of the Stonemarch, since it has orcs and ogres in it anyway. The Nentir River can just be assumed to be too small to appear on the map, and you could just continue to call it the Nentir River. You'd probably have to ignore the bit about "Tigerclan nomads." There isn't any particular reason for a lot of ruins in the southern Pale other than the gradual decline of the Great Kingdom in the last few centuries, and the general hazards of living in a D&D world.

If it's in northern Tenh, the Cairngorn Peaks are the Bluff Hills (which fit the description very closely) and the Dawnforge Mountains are the Griff Mountains (which also fit pretty well). The Nentir River is the Zumker River, and you'd have to add a forest to cut it off from the major city Nevond Nevend (which isn't a big problem, I don't think). The recent invasion by the Hold of Stonefist could be the reason there are so many ruins, but it might work better if you set it several decades later if you don't want it all to be very recently destroyed. The Tigerclan nomads would be Rovers of the Barrens.

If it's in Perrenland, you could put it west of the Sepia Uplands (which would be the equivalent of the Dawnforge Mountains, where Hammerfast would go). The advantage here is the "Tigerclan nomads" who come to Nenlast to trade could be Wolf Nomads. You could put Nentir Vale further to the west and have the Tigerclan nomads be Tiger Nomads, but then you're in Baklunish territory and the generally European feel of Nentir Vale should probably be swapped for more of an Asian feel instead. Either way, the ruins could all be the result of the Relentless Horde invading the area in the 300s CY, which cut off the Archbarony of Blackmoor to the north from the Quaglands, which were at the time a province of the Great Kingdom. The northern, isolated frontier feel is right for Nentir Vale.

If you continue through the Dawnforge Mountains along the Trade Road, in the 4e setting you eventually end up in the ruins of Vor Rukoth, which was formerly a city of Bael Turath until it was overrun by devils. Vor Rukoth could fit pretty well in the Bone March, in the Blemu Uplands at the edge of the Solnor Ocean. You could also probably fit it in the Yatil Mountains at the edge of Lake Quag if you end up putting Nentir Vale south of the lands of the Tiger Nomads. In the other positions, it doesn't really fit as well, and you'd probably have to ignore that connection unless you instead ignore the fact that Vor Rukoth is supposed to be at the edge of a sea. Or you could put Vor Rukoth in the Underdark and have the Midnight Sea be a subterranean sea, which would be fine as far as I can tell. Bael Turath could be an ancient devil-worshiping Flan kingdom pretty much anywhere in the Flanaess.

The Kingdom of Nerath is the Great Kingdom of Aerdy in nearly all of these locations, unless you put south of the lands of the Tiger Nomads, in which case it's the Caliphate of Ekbir (or, I guess, the Sultanate of Zeif or even the Baklunish Imperium).

These are a lot of cool suggestions!

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Dragonhelm » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:07 am

MODERATOR: I've moved this topic to our handy-dandy new Nentir Vale forum. Enjoy!
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Big Mac » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:33 am

Predictably, for Spelljammer, I'd want to see Nentir Vale as the main area of a groundling world that was surrounded by a set of other worlds and nested in a cosmology that followed the 4e version of Manual of the Planes. (So although I'd make "planejamming" something rare in normal SJ spheres, I might make it much easier to planeshift a spelljamming ship in Nentir Vale's home sphere.)

Any generic 4e content that did not specifically fit in Nentir Vale could be put on other worlds (or moons or asteroids) within the same sphere. And any new varieties of beholders, mind flyers or neogi could be local factions specific to the wildspace of the crystal sphere.
ripvanwormer wrote:On Oerth I would put Nentir Vale in northern Tenh, in the southern Theocracy of the Pale, in northern Perrenland, in northern Ekbir, in the North Kingdom next to the Bone March, or in the Bone March.
What are your thoughts to shoehorning Nentir Vale (and its surrounding areas) into the area to the left of The Flanaess?

If that area is not developed anyway (not unless someone can find some material on the Celestial Imperium) then you could just remove some of the Dry Steppes or the Sea of Dust and stick Nentir Vale there (including its mountains).
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:12 am

Big Mac wrote:Predictably, for Spelljammer, I'd want to see Nentir Vale as the main area of a groundling world that was surrounded by a set of other worlds and nested in a cosmology that followed the 4e version of Manual of the Planes.
As you know, I generally don't like the idea of using multiple cosmologies in a Spelljammer setting. In particular, the 4e cosmology has so much in common with the Greyhawk cosmology that I think the drawbacks in confusing the players with multiple, nigh-identical Lolths, Pelors, Orcuses, Baators, Cities of Brass, Tharizduns, githyanki lich-queens, Plutons, Arvandors, and Pandemoniums would outstrip any benefits you'd get from making the various worlds more distinctive. That kind of thing would only work if the cosmology attached to the new sphere was strikingly different. For example, if the players knew that a given sphere was attached to seven planes associated with the colors of the light spectrum, or twelve planes associated with the months of the year, or something equally distinctive, that might help make the sphere more memorable and interesting. But having to remember if it was the Nentirspace Lolth, the Greyspace Lolth, or the Realmspace Lolth who had a grudge against them doesn't sound like it'd add to the game at all. Better to pick one cosmology and stick with it; the Great Wheel is already built to handle multiple pantheons in multiple spheres, though it isn't the only alternative. My view is that people on different worlds could see the same cosmology from different perspectives, their theologians, sages, and planar travelers mapping it in different ways, but it's all ultimately the same place.

It might be possible to mine enough from new 4e canon to create a unique crystal sphere; I'd start with the empires of Bael Turath (tieflings) and Arkhosia (dragonborn) and assume they founded colonies throughout the system. Then maybe I'd expand the Underdark tunnel created by the fallen god Torog so that it crawls across multiple worlds. Nentir Vale itself seems pretty much designed to be a fairly insignificant part of the planet - there's not much going on there except for some ruins suitable for relatively low-level games.
What are your thoughts to shoehorning Nentir Vale (and its surrounding areas) into the area to the left of The Flanaess?

If that area is not developed anyway (not unless someone can find some material on the Celestial Imperium) then you could just remove some of the Dry Steppes or the Sea of Dust and stick Nentir Vale there (including its mountains).
Nentir Vale is pretty much a standard European-style fantasy setting, so you'd have to change it somewhat to fit into the Baklunish lands or the Sea of Dust. It's true that there could be Suel-Oeridian migrants in Central Oerik as well as the Flanaess, but if they have more or less the same culture as the people of the Flanaess do, it seems like a waste. The chief appeal of traveling to exotic lands separated from the main continent by huge mountain ranges, Asian-style steppes nomads, and mysterious dark-skinned desert dwellers would be ending up in a new kind of campaign. Nentir Vale is very mundane from a D&D perspective, virtually indistinguishable from any other northernly, rural part of the Flanaess. If it's in Greyhawk, that's where it belongs; it's not so cool a place that it would improve the mysterious West with its presence. There are big chunks of the Flanaess that are mostly unmapped, appearing as largely blank hexes, so Nentir Vale might well improve those. Also, it's a very small area; you could fit it into only three hexes if you squeezed things. Compared to the vast continents of Oerth that are mostly unmapped, Nentir Vale wouldn't provide us with much illumination. In the Flanaess, though, many places can spare three hexes, but filling up three hexes in the Flanaess means more.

It's true that the western Oerik/Chainmail region seems largely Europeanish (being settled by migrants from the Flanaess across the Solnor Ocean). You could put Nentir Vale there as easily as in the Flanaess, if you thought it was worth the bother. It could go virtually anywhere in the northern portion; the Kingdom of Nerath would be the elven empire of Ravilla, and I guess you'd have to introduce something similar to Bael Turath and Arkhosia to the region's distant past. That setting bores me, personally - it's not that there's nothing going on there, but it's all essentially the same plot point, the war over the weapons and armor of the dead god Stratis. There are some interesting sites - ancient gith ruins, a river of ghosts, a fallen star - but if it weren't on Oerth I basically wouldn't think about it at all. Even adding a lot of generic 3e and 4e stuff, I'd find it lacking (your mileage, of course, may vary). Some of the other places outside the Sundered Empire seem potentially more promising - the mirrormasters of Lynn, the Tarquish Dominions, maybe Aquaria (which could be the same place as Lynn) - but the things I like about Oerth are all in the Flanaess, so I'm not terribly inspired to bother with developing the rest of the world. The only idea that really intrigues me is a war between an expansionistic Thalos or Tarquish empire and the Flanaess, but then you're using the Flanaess again.

I hope I don't sound like I'm being needlessly negative. I'm just explaining my reasons why I'd prefer to put Nentir Vale in the Flanaess, if it were on Greyhawk. It could be on its own world too, of course.

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Big Mac » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:51 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Predictably, for Spelljammer, I'd want to see Nentir Vale as the main area of a groundling world that was surrounded by a set of other worlds and nested in a cosmology that followed the 4e version of Manual of the Planes.
As you know, I generally don't like the idea of using multiple cosmologies in a Spelljammer setting. In particular, the 4e cosmology has so much in common with the Greyhawk cosmology that I think the drawbacks in confusing the players with multiple, nigh-identical Lolths, Pelors, Orcuses, Baators, Cities of Brass, Tharizduns, githyanki lich-queens, Plutons, Arvandors, and Pandemoniums would outstrip any benefits you'd get from making the various worlds more distinctive. That kind of thing would only work if the cosmology attached to the new sphere was strikingly different. For example, if the players knew that a given sphere was attached to seven planes associated with the colors of the light spectrum, or twelve planes associated with the months of the year, or something equally distinctive, that might help make the sphere more memorable and interesting. But having to remember if it was the Nentirspace Lolth, the Greyspace Lolth, or the Realmspace Lolth who had a grudge against them doesn't sound like it'd add to the game at all. Better to pick one cosmology and stick with it; the Great Wheel is already built to handle multiple pantheons in multiple spheres, though it isn't the only alternative. My view is that people on different worlds could see the same cosmology from different perspectives, their theologians, sages, and planar travelers mapping it in different ways, but it's all ultimately the same place.
I wouldn't really do it like that. I would only have one Lolth. Where I would do it differently, is that rather than tossing out the 4e cosmology (and replacing it with The Great Wheel from 3e and 2e) I would look at the 4e cosmology as the cosmological "belief" of the local sages of Nentir Vale.

I don't really know the 4e cosmology, so I speak from ignorance, but if for argument sake the books do not include the Paraelemental planes, then I would have sages believe that those planes do not exist. I would have the planes themelseves, exist, but I would have no direct connection from Nentir Vale's section of the Material Plane (i.e. Nentirspace) to those planes. Planewalkers from the sphere would never see those planes and their understanding of the universe would reinforce the believe that the "known universe" did not include planes like that. If you took them there, they would just think it was a demi-plane.

I would make Planescape a more mazelike thing. And Lolth, as a goddess with worshipers in multiple spheres, would be able to navigate quickly to any part of the maze that connects to a sphere where she is worshipped. She could easily have multiple homes, with the inhabitants of Nentir Vale only being aware of the one that is in what they perceive the cosmolgy to be. (And if certain drow deities don't' feature in 4e, then they either can not or will not travel to the parts of the outer planes that connect to Nentirspace. Essentially, you can keep other spheres with a set of drow deities and have Lolth have a secret way into and out of Nentir Vale's cosmology.)

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I think this sort of "Ben Kenobi solution" would work for me. (And if it doesn't work for player characters, that is because they don't know all the answers needed to understand the workings of the universe. ;) )
ripvanwormer wrote:It might be possible to mine enough from new 4e canon to create a unique crystal sphere; I'd start with the empires of Bael Turath (tieflings) and Arkhosia (dragonborn) and assume they founded colonies throughout the system. Then maybe I'd expand the Underdark tunnel created by the fallen god Torog so that it crawls across multiple worlds. Nentir Vale itself seems pretty much designed to be a fairly insignificant part of the planet - there's not much going on there except for some ruins suitable for relatively low-level games.
I do have things that are higher on my priority list. By the time I got around to trying to do this, we would hopefully have Gazetteer: Nentir Vale back on the schedule and some useful products to go with it.

I think a 4e world would need to have a "points of light" theme to all of it.
ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:What are your thoughts to shoehorning Nentir Vale (and its surrounding areas) into the area to the left of The Flanaess?

If that area is not developed anyway (not unless someone can find some material on the Celestial Imperium) then you could just remove some of the Dry Steppes or the Sea of Dust and stick Nentir Vale there (including its mountains).
Nentir Vale is pretty much a standard European-style fantasy setting, so you'd have to change it somewhat to fit into the Baklunish lands or the Sea of Dust. It's true that there could be Suel-Oeridian migrants in Central Oerik as well as the Flanaess, but if they have more or less the same culture as the people of the Flanaess do, it seems like a waste. The chief appeal of traveling to exotic lands separated from the main continent by huge mountain ranges, Asian-style steppes nomads, and mysterious dark-skinned desert dwellers would be ending up in a new kind of campaign. Nentir Vale is very mundane from a D&D perspective, virtually indistinguishable from any other northernly, rural part of the Flanaess. If it's in Greyhawk, that's where it belongs; it's not so cool a place that it would improve the mysterious West with its presence. There are big chunks of the Flanaess that are mostly unmapped, appearing as largely blank hexes, so Nentir Vale might well improve those. Also, it's a very small area; you could fit it into only three hexes if you squeezed things. Compared to the vast continents of Oerth that are mostly unmapped, Nentir Vale wouldn't provide us with much illumination. In the Flanaess, though, many places can spare three hexes, but filling up three hexes in the Flanaess means more.

It's true that the western Oerik/Chainmail region seems largely Europeanish (being settled by migrants from the Flanaess across the Solnor Ocean). You could put Nentir Vale there as easily as in the Flanaess, if you thought it was worth the bother. It could go virtually anywhere in the northern portion; the Kingdom of Nerath would be the elven empire of Ravilla, and I guess you'd have to introduce something similar to Bael Turath and Arkhosia to the region's distant past. That setting bores me, personally - it's not that there's nothing going on there, but it's all essentially the same plot point, the war over the weapons and armor of the dead god Stratis. There are some interesting sites - ancient gith ruins, a river of ghosts, a fallen star - but if it weren't on Oerth I basically wouldn't think about it at all. Even adding a lot of generic 3e and 4e stuff, I'd find it lacking (your mileage, of course, may vary). Some of the other places outside the Sundered Empire seem potentially more promising - the mirrormasters of Lynn, the Tarquish Dominions, maybe Aquaria (which could be the same place as Lynn) - but the things I like about Oerth are all in the Flanaess, so I'm not terribly inspired to bother with developing the rest of the world. The only idea that really intrigues me is a war between an expansionistic Thalos or Tarquish empire and the Flanaess, but then you're using the Flanaess again.

I hope I don't sound like I'm being needlessly negative. I'm just explaining my reasons why I'd prefer to put Nentir Vale in the Flanaess, if it were on Greyhawk. It could be on its own world too, of course.
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:20 am

Big Mac wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:My view is that people on different worlds could see the same cosmology from different perspectives, their theologians, sages, and planar travelers mapping it in different ways, but it's all ultimately the same place.
I wouldn't really do it like that. I would only have one Lolth. Where I would do it differently, is that rather than tossing out the 4e cosmology (and replacing it with The Great Wheel from 3e and 2e) I would look at the 4e cosmology as the cosmological "belief" of the local sages of Nentir Vale.
Sounds like our opinions are fairly close, then.
I don't really know the 4e cosmology, so I speak from ignorance, but if for argument sake the books do not include the Paraelemental planes, then I would have sages believe that those planes do not exist.
4e has only one elemental plane, the Elemental Chaos. Perhaps it's the same thing as the inner planes other spheres know, but the sages of Nentir Vale fail to see any order in it.

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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Big Mac » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:26 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:My view is that people on different worlds could see the same cosmology from different perspectives, their theologians, sages, and planar travelers mapping it in different ways, but it's all ultimately the same place.
I wouldn't really do it like that. I would only have one Lolth. Where I would do it differently, is that rather than tossing out the 4e cosmology (and replacing it with The Great Wheel from 3e and 2e) I would look at the 4e cosmology as the cosmological "belief" of the local sages of Nentir Vale.
Sounds like our opinions are fairly close, then.
Perhaps they are. Maybe I should get back to the Planescape forum more often.
ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I don't really know the 4e cosmology, so I speak from ignorance, but if for argument sake the books do not include the Paraelemental planes, then I would have sages believe that those planes do not exist.
4e has only one elemental plane, the Elemental Chaos. Perhaps it's the same thing as the inner planes other spheres know, but the sages of Nentir Vale fail to see any order in it.
One way that this could perhaps be handled (from a Great Wheel point of view) is that if you can have Quasi Elemental and Para Elemental planes and if they are a merger between one "pure" elemental plane and something else (either another elemental plane or an energy plane), perhaps it is possible to make other combinations, under certain circumstances.

I like to think that things in crystal spheres can stop at the sphere wall (so that you can have something within the sphere that is not found elsewhere). Suppose in Nentirspace, the four elemental planes (and the para elemental planes and quasi elemental planes and maybe the energy planes) were pulled together more and more until the borders between them collapsed* and they became a gigantic sphere-sized plane (or demi-plane, if you prefer) that consisted of random bits of different elements.

* = Or maybe the illithids or some other faction forced them to collapse, in an attempt to change the way the sphere works. If they try to "darken the light" then why not have them use one element to "extinguish" its opposite.

Maybe that could be the truth of what Elemental Chaos is. Or maybe that could be an accepted or disputed theory that sages have. (As someone who likes the many conflicting theories that the AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set put out, I think I would value a theory - or a number of theories - over a GM edict. To be honest, I don't think you always need an explanation, and the real-world does not have universally accepted explanations for everything.)

Another theory could be that the various Elemental Planes exist in Nentir Vale, but the entire area acts like a portal, and can instantly teleport people or objects in one Elemental Plane to any other Elemental Plane. So it could be identical to the Great Wheel, but work totally different because of external forces.

And just as Elemental Chaos could be something that happens after separate Elemental Planes, it could also be something that happens before separate Elemental Planes. It could be the natural end of how the Inner Planes evolve or it could be the natural start of how they form.

I see these things as a bunch of possibilities that could make players ask questions about the campaign universe (rather than something that a GM could write an essay about). Maybe the GM could even leave it up to the players to "discover" how the multiverse really works.

Anyhoo, that is the sort of way I would try to make the Nentir Vale cosmology work alongside the cosmology used for other settings that Spelljammer connects to.
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:17 pm

Timothy S. Brannan is running a D&D game, where he is merging Nentir Vale into Forgotten Realms. (Even if you want to insert Nentir Vale into another world, it still might be worth digging through Timothy's blog, as he has made some documents that might be useful.)
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Tim Baker » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:56 am

I hadn't come across this thread before -- thanks for the thread necromancy. :)

I haven't put Nentir Vale into another D&D world, but have done the opposite, placing Zakhara, from the Al-Qadim setting, into Nerath. I placed it off the southwest edge of the map. In my campaign, the Iron Circle -- and evil faction that is featured in Nentir Vale adventures -- was spreading north and east to the Nentir Vale while also spreading south and west into Zakhara. So when we concluded our Nentir Vale campaign, our follow-up campaign focused on Zakhara, and how the Iron Circle had redoubled their efforts there after being thwarted in the Nentir Vale. It was a fun way of making it clear to the players that their PCs' actions had consequences in other parts of the world.
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Re: Adapting the Nentir Vale into World X

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:49 am

As Tim, I did something similar. I didn't put the Nentir Vale into an established world, but somehow brought in parts of other worlds to the Nentir Vale. But well, I was an inexperienced DM at the time, so I just took parts of the stuff published in the earlier products of 4e to create a compelling setting for my players.

So, my Nentir Vale is north to a Eberronish Cormyr that is the last surviving kingdom of Nerath, and east to Drooam (the monster kingdom from Eberron), because those places were detailed in the earlier 4e dragon mags. And also near to an Athas-like desert (with its own Sorcerer Kings) created during the Arkhosian-Turathi Wars, that was added to my world when 4e Dark Sun was released.
Gawain_VIII wrote:We now have several of these self-contained "intro" valleys. I'd suggest that each one belongs to a different world.

Valley of Obelisks (Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde)--Abeir/Toril: the southern edge of the Nether Mts. in the Silver Marches. The Marrilach River runs southwest into the Talons, then south as a tributary of the River Delimbiyr. Turnstone Pass provides a road out of the valley to Sundabar, while the Marrilach River still provides passage south.
I wonder if this Slaughtergarde is the same Slaughtergarde of the official Conquest of Nerath game...
Big Mac wrote:Predictably, for Spelljammer, I'd want to see Nentir Vale as the main area of a groundling world that was surrounded by a set of other worlds and nested in a cosmology that followed the 4e version of Manual of the Planes. (So although I'd make "planejamming" something rare in normal SJ spheres, I might make it much easier to planeshift a spelljamming ship in Nentir Vale's home sphere.)
You can always use the 4e take of the Great Wheel, that was published in the 4e Manual of the Planes, if you feel the World Axis deviates to much from the Spelljammer vibe.

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