is there a list of raided elements?

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is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:08 am

In the last few months I've been made much more aware of the various D&D elements that were created for one campaign setting and then raided to be put into a second one.

There seems to be a lot of this going on with Nentir Vale and the Points of Light material. (I think I've even seen people suggest that Nentir Vale is a reboot of other campaign settings and that is some sort of proof that they won't get a 4e version. But I'm not so sure that the 4e raiding is any different from earlier raiding.)

I'd be interested in exactly how much stuff has been raided (and where I can look for 3e, 2e, 1e or classic sources). Does anyone know of a list of 4e's raided setting elements?

EDIT: I'm going to try to make my own list of raided elements below.

Elements of Nentir Vale raided from earlier campaign settings
[b]Element[/b] | [b]Nentir Vale Sources[/b] | [b]pre-4e Settings[/b] | [b]pre-4e Sources[/b] [b]Broken Lands[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Castle Inverness[/b] | D&D Encounters: March of the Phantom Brigade, [url=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... d/20110216]March of the Phantom Brigade: Design & Development[/url] | Greyhawk | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Chaos Scar[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Desert of Desolation[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | Generic, Forgotten Realms | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Eclavdra[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | Greyhawk | [i]GDQ modules: to be confirmed[/i] [b]Isle of Dread[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | Mystara, Greyhawk | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Keep on the Borderland[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Temple of Elemental Evil[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | Greyhawk | [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple ... ental_Evil]T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil[/url], [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple ... eo_game%29]The Temple of Elemental Evil (computer game)[/url], [url=http://www.amazon.com/Temple-Elemental- ... 0786918640]The Temple of Elemental Evil (novel)[/url], [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_to_ ... ental_Evil]Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil[/url] [b]Tomb of Horrors[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Rain of Colorless Fire[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Sea of Dust[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | Greyhawk | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]Vault of the Drow[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] [b]White Plume Mountain[/b] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i] | [i]to be confirmed[/i]

LAST EDIT: This table is under construction. Data being added from this post.
Last edited by Big Mac on Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by dfryer36 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:33 pm

I am not sure what you mean by raided elements.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:27 am

dfryer36 wrote:I am not sure what you mean by raided elements.
By raided elements, I mean things that start off in one campaign setting and are then retconned into another. Isle of Dread is an example of this, as it started off as a Mystara thing and then Dragon made a sequel that turned it into a Greyhawk thing.

In the case of Isle of Dread, a Mystara fan might want to look at the new stuff and use that with Mystara, while a Greyhawk fan might want to look at the original stuff and use that with Greyhawk. (Some fans get annoyed at raided stuff, but that is wandering into Edition War territory and I'm not so interested at that non-constructive stuff. And as this is something that has been happening since both Mystara and Greyhawk raided Blackmoor, I don't think that 4e is any worse at raiding than earlier settings.)

Looking at the High Res Map of Nerath I see "Temple of Elemental Evil", "Vault of the Drow", "White Plume Mountain" and "Tomb of Horrors". These are all names from previous editions and other campaign settings.

The thing about raided stuff is you end up with a location that has a relationship to one place...and then in the second version you get the same location, but a different relationship to a second place. You can look at the material from the other setting and get some extra ideas, but you also have to watch out for things that do not belong in the setting you want to use (and make sure you don't accidentally import them).

Anyhoo, I know there are four raided places. But are there other places? I know that some Nentir Vale gods have been raided. Is there a list? Is any other stuff raided?
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by dfryer36 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:48 am

Well then I would quickly point to the Broken Lands. That is the one that stands out most prominately to me. Also, The Keep on the Borderland stands guard over the Chaos Scar in the Nentir Vale.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Havard » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:55 am

dfryer36 wrote:Well then I would quickly point to the Broken Lands. That is the one that stands out most prominately to me. Also, The Keep on the Borderland stands guard over the Chaos Scar in the Nentir Vale.
Is the Broken Lands really meant to be a duplication of Mystara's Brokenlands?

Keep on the Borderlands is well noted. The Chaos Scar is also pretty much a carbon copy of the Caves of Chaos, also from B2.

The Isle of Dread exists in the 4E cosmology, but is not AFAIK directly connected to the Nentir Vale setting as such. The previously published modules (mainly Greyhawk) directly linked to the Nentir Vale setting are the ones mentioned on the map. Sadly the link to the map is blocked at my workplace (WotC:Games) so I cannot go into more detail now.

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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Paladyn » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:40 am

In March of the Pahntom Brigade (part of Dungeons&Dragons Encounters) heroes travel with settlers who are planning to build city in shadow of Castle Ilverness' ruins. It is hinted that structure was transported from World of Greyhawk in some mysterious way. This is mentioned in sidebars and only information PC can get is via interaction with caravan's sage. Rich Baker included that hints as" a nod to savvy players".

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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by dfryer36 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:09 pm

Havard wrote:
dfryer36 wrote:Well then I would quickly point to the Broken Lands. That is the one that stands out most prominately to me. Also, The Keep on the Borderland stands guard over the Chaos Scar in the Nentir Vale.
Is the Broken Lands really meant to be a duplication of Mystara's Brokenlands?

-Havard
Not entirely sure, but the map does make it look as if the region was pounded by a meteor or meteors, similar to what happened in Mystara. There sure are a lot of crater lakes there.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by dfryer36 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:25 pm

Also, I am not sure whether this counts as a raided element or not, but Season 5 of D&D Encounters dealt with the aftermath of the archwizard Evard's death during a wizards duel.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by ripvanwormer » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:24 pm

The Desert of Desolation was from a generic module by Tracy Hickman, later adopted into the Forgotten Realms setting (in the compilation module of that name) as the Raurin Desert, the former land of the Imaskari Empire. In 4th edition, the Desert of Desolation is the former land of the draconic Empire of Arkhosia.

The Sea of Dust is from the World of Greyhawk. It's mentioned in Primal Power. The spell that created the Sea of Dust, the Rain of Colorless Fire, is mentioned in Monster Manual 3. The Sea of Dust isn't on the official map, but it might well be the same as the Desert of Desolation (and the Rain of Colorless Fire might have been the tiefling curse that created it).

Eclavdra, a powerful servant of Lolth, is from the GDQ modules in the Greyhawk setting. She appears in Monster Manual 3 and is mentioned in Underdark. The drow city of Erelhei-Cinlu, from the same modules, is fully detailed in Underdark. Lolth first appeared in Q1, and she's fully statted in the Monster Manual 3 for 4e.

Imix and Ogremoch are Princes of Elemental Evil who appeared in the Egg of the Phoenix series, set in Frank Mentzer's Aquaria campaign. They originated in the first edition Fiend Folio, and in 4th edition they're in Monster Manual 3.

The Dungeon of the Fire Opal was the sample dungeon in the first edition Dungeon Master's Guide, and it was fully fleshed out by Jonathan Tweet in Dungeon #84. It appears on the map in the 4th edition accessory Hammerfast. It's generic, but it has several hooks and an NPC in common with the adventure "Wedding Bells" (also by Jonathan Tweet) in Dungeon #89, which was set in Greyhawk, most probably on the edge of the Kingdom of Celene.

Castle Inverness is from a first edition Greyhawk adventure called Ghost Tower of Inverness.

Evard was made a Greyhawk NPC in Living Greyhawk Journal #0, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, and Dungeon #107. He appeared as a necromancer in the Living Greyhawk campaign.

Greyhawk gods who appear in 4th edition's core setting include Pelor, Vecna, Corellon, Sehanine, Bahamut, Tiamat, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, Tharizdun, Nerull (dead in 4th edition), Lolth, Moradin, and Kord. Saint Cuthbert is considered to be an exarch of Moradin in 4e. Tiamat and Bahamut originally appeared as the Chromatic Dragon and the Platinum Dragon in Supplement I: Greyhawk for the original D&D game.

Several Greyhawk artifacts, like the Rod of Seven Parts, Mace of Cuthbert, Hand and Eye of Vecna, Crystal of Ebon Flame, and Jacinth of Inestimable Beauty appear in 4th edition.

Cyan Bloodbane, from the Dragonlance saga, appears in Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons for 4th edition, as does the red dragon Ashardalon from 3e's Bastion of Broken Souls.

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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Big Mac » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:05 pm

dfryer36 wrote:Also, I am not sure whether this counts as a raided element or not, but Season 5 of D&D Encounters dealt with the aftermath of the archwizard Evard's death during a wizards duel.
Evard is from Greyhawk, right?
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:00 pm

Big Mac wrote:
dfryer36 wrote:Also, I am not sure whether this counts as a raided element or not, but Season 5 of D&D Encounters dealt with the aftermath of the archwizard Evard's death during a wizards duel.
Evard is from Greyhawk, right?
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:20 am

Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium makes reference to Mordenkainen, Mordenkainen's apprentice Qort (previously mentioned only in WG7), Otiluke, Bigby, Tenser, Robilar, Bigby, Evard, Rary, Daern, Quaal, the Circle of Eight, Erelhei-Cinlu, Castle Greyhawk, and Maure Castle. All of those are Greyhawk things. In the narration, Mordenkainen mentions living on a world called Oerth, but notes that other worlds have magical items similar to the ones mentioned in this book. The book also references 4th edition things like the Elemental Chaos, the Feywild, the Shadowfell, primordials, the goddesses Avandra, Erathis, Melora, and Ioun, the defunct lands of Bael Turath, Nerath, and Arkhosia, and the Dawn War between the primordials and gods. There are too many references to Nerath, especially, for the book to be set anywhere but the 4th edition world, but there are a lot of Greyhawk "raided elements."

4th edition's Demonomicon mentions Iggwilv, a Greyhawk NPC originally from Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, and the Greyhawk nation of Perrenland. It also mentions Zagyg, the demigod who created Castle Greyhawk, and the Company of Seven to which Zagyg and Iggwilv both belonged.

In 4th edition, the Greyhawk references far, far outnumber references to other D&D campaign settings. Primarily I think this is because the Forgotten Realms exists as a 4th edition campaign setting in its own right, while Greyhawk seems to have been merged to some degree with the very different world of Nentir Vale.

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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Dragonhelm » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:33 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Cyan Bloodbane, from the Dragonlance saga, appears in Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons for 4th edition, as does the red dragon Ashardalon from 3e's Bastion of Broken Souls.
I want to say that Silvara was also added. They also took the 5 base draconian breeds, and added 3 more to them.

Spelljamming is mentioned a lot as a means of travel in the Astral Sea, making spelljamming a form of planar travel. Sigil exists as part of the cosmology. Likewise, the Domains of Dread now exist within the Shadowfell.

Good, bad? I don't know.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Dragonhelm » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:38 pm

Updates: The Isle of Dread is in the Feywild now. Plus, the module Beyond the Crystal Cave has also become part of the Nentir Vale world.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Havard » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:56 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:Updates: The Isle of Dread is in the Feywild now.
Interestingly the 4E version of the Isle of Dread exists both in the Feywild and in the World (ie Prime Plane) at the same time.

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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Dragonhelm » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:33 pm

Havard wrote:
Dragonhelm wrote:Updates: The Isle of Dread is in the Feywild now.
Interestingly the 4E version of the Isle of Dread exists both in the Feywild and in the World (ie Prime Plane) at the same time.

-Havard
I'll try to look over the entry in Heroes of the Feywild a bit closer to see if something is going on there.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:35 pm

Havard wrote:
Dragonhelm wrote:Updates: The Isle of Dread is in the Feywild now.
Interestingly the 4E version of the Isle of Dread exists both in the Feywild and in the World (ie Prime Plane) at the same time.
So Isle of Dread is now in three settings (Mystara, Greyhawk and Nentir Vale), right? Don't forget I'm trying to find out what products things were raided from (as well as what is raided):
Big Mac wrote:I'd be interested in exactly how much stuff has been raided (and where I can look for 3e, 2e, 1e or classic sources). Does anyone know of a list of 4e's raided setting elements?
I'm going to edit my first post and start making a table of what you all have told me. Please name the exact sources, if you can, to save me a bit of searching time.
Last edited by Big Mac on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Havard » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:18 pm

I wonder if Raided is the proper term here. It seems more like the 4E approach is that any element from D&D can now exist anywhere in any setting.

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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:32 pm

Havard wrote:I wonder if Raided is the proper term here. It seems more like the 4E approach is that any element from D&D can now exist anywhere in any setting.
:lol:

I could have said "reused", but I think that "raided" is more fun. :twisted:
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Dragonhelm » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:22 am

Havard wrote:I wonder if Raided is the proper term here. It seems more like the 4E approach is that any element from D&D can now exist anywhere in any setting.
I would say that's accurate. I think, rather than releasing a ton of settings, they were raided for elements that could fit within their revised cosmology. So spelljamming becomes planar travel in the astral sea, and Ravenloft's Domains of Dread become part of the Shadowfell. etc. etc.

I almost started a new thread about this, but it seems more fitting here. I have kind of a theory about what's going on with the Nentir Vale setting, particularly in regards to Greyhawk and Mystara. Some of this is based on conjecture and theory, not actual knowledge of events. So feel free to correct me if I'm off.

My understanding of the early days of D&D is that it diverged into two paths. Greyhawk would become the world of the AD&D modules, and Mystara would become the world of the basic D&D modules. I suspect that the modules each added onto the known worlds, but that there wasn't a cohesive world from the beginning.

So why create a new setting, then, when we have 3 settings (Greyhawk, Mystara, and Forgotten Realms) that are fully capable of being the basic D&D world?

I think WotC wanted a fresh start. Consider that WotC wants an easy entry point to D&D, not a setting with 30 years of continuity. I think they wanted a clean slate, so they could work in things like the dragonborn and tieflings without any repercussions from existing fans. Imagine saying that dragonborn were always in Greyhawk!

Ah, but WotC wanted to also include some iconic modules in the new world. This was their chance to integrate them in a way that made more cohesive sense. After all, why go from one setting to another to allow your players to travel between classic dungeons when you could have them all in one setting?

Consider as well that Nentir Vale/Nerath is the world of Dungeons & Dragons. It's the implied setting, much as Golarion is the implied setting for Pathfnder. Shouldn't all of the iconic adventure sites of D&D be in the world of Dungeons & Dragons?

I could be totally off-base, but I think it's a theory worth considering.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Dragonhelm » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:25 am

David - Inverness (note the spelling) comes from Ghost Tower of Inverness, a Greyhawk adventure.

I know your table is still under construction. Let me know if I can be of further help.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Dragonhelm » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:45 am

Chris Perkins had this to say in his recent editorial, Wild Times.

"You could say that Beyond the Crystal Cave was the first official D&D® adventure set in the Feywild. Granted, in 1983 no one knew the Feywild existed! Nevertheless, Porpherio’s Garden has many traits in common with the plane, and the garden’s mysterious keeper—the Green Man—has qualities comparable to 4th Edition archfey, including a proclivity for magic and a tendency to be secretive."

So that may not be conclusive, but check this out.

"A new D&D Encounters™ season kicks off this month, and we’re trading the political cauldron of Neverwinter for a return visit to Porpherio’s Garden."

And there you have it! The new season is going to be based on Beyond the Crystal Cave. Huzzah!
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Dragonhelm » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:47 am

Havard wrote:
Dragonhelm wrote:Updates: The Isle of Dread is in the Feywild now.
Interestingly the 4E version of the Isle of Dread exists both in the Feywild and in the World (ie Prime Plane) at the same time.
Okay, got an answer on this. Per Heroes of the Feywild...

"The island constantly shifts from the Feywild to the natural world at random, possibly at different points in the ocean of time."

If you wanted some continuity between settings, you could expand on that to say the Isle touches upon different worlds, too.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:40 am

Wow good info there Dragonhelm. I'm going to have to look into BtCC and the HotF has jumped up on my list of priorites.
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Re: is there a list of raided elements?

Post by Morfie » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:07 am

I think Dragonhelm is onto something here. The focus on "Points Of Light" means just about any previous module could be used, and there is no need for continuity between them.
Perhaps a focus on re-imagining (rather than converting) older adventures will take place.
Since 4e is losing market share to Pathfinder this could be a way of creating nostalgia for older players and attracting them back to 4e.

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